54 réponses à ce sujet

[P38 ace]

I think the one on the Citidel is the one also used to bring the reapers in, the power is just channal through the whole station, while the one on ILOS highjacked the relay on the station to make a smaller brige

also to end the whole Ilos is secret thing

the planet itself was not secret just the facility and what it was doing was, when the reapers show up they bombed the planet back to the stone age, but the sicentist got into the arcives and continued their reseach while everyone on the out side was dead/dieing

only those thousand or so knew about the work so the reapers had no reason to return

after the 100 or so years to destoy the Prothains, all but soverin when back to dark space, soverian went into the dormate state and only woke periodically to check out the tech level

the singal to the becaons went out while soverain was "sleeping" so he did not pick it up

then the sicentist when to the Chitdel and change the signal, the keepers by this time only responed to the signals from the citidel itself, not the ones from the reapers

so with the singal changed to where soveran could not tell the citidel to send the signal to the keepers, they just carried on, still waiting for the signal but never reciving it.

so soverain started indocternating and heard the beconce singal and sent Sairn to get it

the rest is ME1 "myth/history"

Modifié par P38 ace, 25 juillet 2011 - 01:25 .

[Drake-Shepard]

yep, that's exactly what i thought happened.

The mass relay in the citadel was the one the reapers used. The protheons tapped into it when they made their conduit.

[Black Raptor]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why inbreeding should be avoided?
1/2 of the time there is no difference.
1/4 of the time it's harmful.
1/4 of the time it's beneficial.
You just have to eliminate the harmful variations and you're scot free.
[/quote]
And you know this works for Protheans? If they said 12 members is not enough, then who are we to say differently. Besides, these are story issues, not plot holes. Just because you don't think something should be the case doesn't mean it can't be the case. You didn't write the story, and the creators of Mass Effect had decided that 12 protheans was not enough to continue the race.



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...


What was the problem with inbreeding, come again?[/quote] Has nobody told you?
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And, like I've said, you could use gene mods. You can outright engineer protheans any way you like. Or a even crocoducks, if you've got advanced enough tech, and the protheans are said to have been very advanced.
[/quote]And like I said, the 12 scientists who survived aren't gene therapists.
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Then how the mass relay scientists could make sense of the Keepers, the signal and all that stuff?
[/quote]Answering a question with a question. The sure fire way of telling somebody is not able to back their position up with evidence. 
Like Vigil says, the Protheans spent years before figuring out it was the Keepers and how to prevent the signal. Signal jamming is not in the same league as cloning.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

BTW, Chorban seems to think that the Keepers are still going to respond to the signal, and hasn't found anything that might be blocking it.
[/quote]Chorban thinks the Keeper signal is due again. He couldn't know it had already been stopped.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
But it is far fetched. If Ilos was secret, and the Reapers couldn't pry it out of the mind of any of their indoctrinated subjects, that would mean that there was nothing pointing to Ilos to be found during the Prothean extinction. And it couldn't appear out of the thin air 50K years after.

In other words, the Reapers would have found the same clues Liara did, and gone to Ilos and harvested it. (Which, BTW, they apparendly did - see Galaxy map description.)
[/quote]
No, the surviving scientists left the clues to point in the right direction. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Can you mail me your copy of the game, please? Because in the one I own it isn't explained.

Why leave Vigil on Ilos? Why not make a copy and install it on the Citadel?
[/quote]By not explained, you mean not written down anywhere. It's pretty obvious that Vigil is the last defence of the Protheans plan to stop the cycle. In the event that the Reapers were able to find out the signal had been blocked and had indoctrinated some minions to rectify that, his purpose is to give the Citadel override key to Shepard so that Saren can't take over the Citadel. Ie last ditch defence incase somebody who wasn't indoctrinated was still trying to stop the threat.

If Vigil was on the Citadel, he would've already been found and thus the Citadel override key would be useless because Saren would already know about it. 
Not to mention all the other problems about a rogue AI ranting about the end of the world to the first alien that steps onboard. Would anyone have beleived him when the Citadel was first discovered?



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

OK, the whole planet was secret, so why go into hybernation? It's not like buzzing around gives you away to somebody in another star system. And if the Reapers came to Ilos, it's not like they could miss such an anomaly as the Conduit anyway, so what was the point in hybernating?[/quote] Again, this is explained in the game. The go into hibernation (that's the correct spelling btw) because they don't know what's happening. They didn't realise they used the Citadel to find everyone until after the Reapers had left. Who knows what sort of detection system the Reapers employ anyway. 
Again you seem to have taken issue with the writers because something has happened which you don't want to have happened. 
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
To put it in terms that you understand: What is the point of hiding under a table in a secret room that the bad guys don't know of, but if they find the secret room accidentally, they will seach it and find you there anyway (because they are thourough and use infrared sensors)?[/quote] Strawman argument ring any bells? 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

But the Codex, and the Galactic map still don't know it. That's why all such ruins are listed as "devasted by means uknown", "mysteriously", "too regular to be a result of meteor shower", etc. So yeah, nothing rings a bell about Ilos in particular.
[/quote]
Maybe it was just the facility that was secret, and not the whole planet. Or maybe something else happened to Ilos after. Take this up with the writers.




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's not like Vigil's tale (or Saren's plan, or the Human-Reaper) makes any sense, so... whatever.[/quote]
It does.
Actual plot: Reapers reap the galaxy (motive not entirely known but it is part of their reproduction at least) 
Not all Protheans died and the survivors stop the signal that opens the Citadel Relay and stops the cycle.
The Reaper vanguard Sovereign needs to regain control of the Citadel to let the Reapers back in and find out how the Protheans stopped the cycle.
Sovereign uses Saren and the geth to take control of the Citadel so he can attack and regain control, open the Relay and let the Reapers back in to continue the cycle.
Shepard stops this from happening, and the Reapers in dark space move on to plan B. 

Your theory: Sovereign is a rogue reaper (with unknown motives) who works with Saren and the geth for an unknown reason in pursuit of an unknown goal under the guise of pretending to unleash the rest of the Reapers on the galaxy (because that will stop people opposing him or something...) by using the Citadel for... something.

Shepard happens upon Vigil who is not collaborating with Sovereign's plan and helps him stop Sovereign under the guise of that it will stop the rest of the Reapers invading. (somehow anticipating Sovereign's sneaky pretend reason instead of telling everyone his real disguised plot) 

Meanwhile, the rest of the Reapers linger about doing nothing until the rogue Sovereign dies upon which point, instead of thanking Shepard, they turn their collector minions upon him/her and the rest of the human race, because... well... they are evil and suddenly picked this point to attack (coincidentally right after Sovereign died even though he was also their enemy for some reason) 

Crystal clear

Modifié par Black Raptor, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:27 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

What was the problem with inbreeding, come again?[/quote] Has nobody told you?
[/quote]
They told me it wasn't something unavoidable.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

Like Vigil says, the Protheans spent years before figuring out it was the Keepers and how to prevent the signal. Signal jamming is not in the same league as cloning.
[/quote]
That's right. Gene therapy of your own species that you have had centuries to study without any rush seems a lot simpler than some undetectable signal originating with a billions-year-old alien machines, especially if it is not even "on" at the moment of the "figuring it out". Even if your personal field of study is neither of the two.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


No, the surviving scientists left the clues to point in the right direction.[/quote]
Where? They died on the Citadel, remember?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



By not explained, you mean not written down anywhere. It's pretty obvious that Vigil is the last defence of the Protheans plan to stop the cycle.[/quote]
To me, it's obvious that Vigil was making things up.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



In the event that the Reapers were able to find out the signal had been blocked and had indoctrinated some minions to rectify that, his purpose is to give the Citadel override key to Shepard
so that Saren can't take over the Citadel. Ie last ditch defence incase somebody who wasn't indoctrinated was still trying to stop the threat.
[/quote]
That's right. The "12 scientists" forsaw the events of ME1 in detail 50K years ago. They, however, failed to realize that the Reapers weren't trapped in the dark space and could be back in no time.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



If Vigil was on the Citadel, he would've already been found and thus the Citadel override key would be useless because Saren would already know about it.
[/quote]
What? Saren was born 2K years after the Citadel was discovered!


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

Not to mention all the other problems about a rogue AI ranting about the end of the world to the first alien that steps onboard. Would anyone have beleived him when the Citadel was first discovered?[/quote]
Seeing as how the owners of the Citadel were nowhere to be seen and didn't throw a welcome party for the newcomers, the asari and salarians might have taken heed. You know, just like Shepard, with the only difference that it was almost already too late...



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Again, this is explained in the game. The go into hibernation (that's the correct spelling btw) because they don't know what's happening. They didn't realise they used the Citadel to find everyone until after the Reapers had left. Who knows what sort of detection system the Reapers employ anyway. [/quote]
Right, and that's why they couldn't also tell if going into hybernation (both spellings are correct, BTW) would matter at all. So, again why go into hybernation, when your only supposed saving grace is secrecy?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
To put it in terms that you understand: What is the point of hiding under a table in a secret room that the bad guys don't know of, but if they find the secret room accidentally, they will seach it and find you there anyway (because they are thourough and use infrared sensors)?[/quote] Strawman argument ring any bells? [/quote]
That's not a strawman argument, that's an analogy. A simplification in order to give you more chances to understand the situation the Protheans were allegedly in on Ilos. And that instead of behaving like a scientifically advanced society, they acted like little kids, or so we're told.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

Maybe it was just the facility that was secret, and not the whole planet. Or maybe something else happened to Ilos after.[/quote]
Or maybe the Reapers harvested Ilos just like the rest of the Prothean realm and left Vigil behind to keep an eye on the extraordinarily powerful mass relay they built there.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

Actual plot: Reapers reap the galaxy (motive not entirely known but it is part of their reproduction at least) 
Not all Protheans died and the survivors stop the signal that opens the Citadel Relay[/quote]
The Citadel is not a relay (see ME: Genesis).



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 


and stops the cycle. 
[/quote]
And stop nothing, seeing how the Reapers are just 3-4 years away from invading the Galaxy anyway.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 



The Reaper vanguard Sovereign needs to regain control of the Citadel to let the Reapers back in and find out how the Protheans stopped the cycle.[/quote]
All Sovereign needed was to tell Harbinger "Sorry, the Citadel is broken, come back the old fashioned way".
That would have preserved the element of surprise, BTW.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 



Sovereign uses Saren and the geth[/quote]
Why not the Collectors?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 



to take control of the Citadel so he can attack and regain control, open the Relay and let the Reapers back in to continue the cycle.
[/quote]
Why not a "Palpatine gambit" first?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 



Shepard stops this from happening, and the Reapers in dark space move on to plan B.[/quote]
Which begs the question, why the "Plan B" wasn't "Plan A" in the first place, seeing how it's way more foolproof...


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 


Your theory: Sovereign is a rogue reaper (with unknown motives) who works with Saren and the geth for an unknown reason in pursuit of an unknown goal under the guise of pretending to unleash the rest of the Reapers on the galaxy (because that will stop people opposing him or something...) by using the Citadel for... something.
[/quote]
That's right, only I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "(because that will stop people opposing him or something...)". I never said Sovereign was a nice guy. Its plan was just as sinister as Harbinger's regarding the fate of the organic civilization.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


Shepard happens upon Vigil who is not collaborating with Sovereign's plan and helps him stop Sovereign under the guise of that it will stop the rest of the Reapers invading. (somehow anticipating Sovereign's sneaky pretend reason instead of telling everyone his real disguised plot) 
[/quote]
Conisdering Shepard & Co have already figured out a lot about the cycle, admitting this part was the best way for Vigil to sell its lies to Shepard. At the same time, notice how Vigil discouraged Shepard from digging any deeper into the matter, pretending the proposed solution - install the "datafile" and defeat Sovereign - was a permanent one.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Meanwhile, the rest of the Reapers linger about doing nothing until the rogue Sovereign dies upon which point,
[/quote]
Harbinger was unaware of Sovereign's activities up to the attack on Eden Prime.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



instead of thanking Shepard,
[/quote]
A "thank you" from Harbie? ROFLMAO!!!



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



they turn their collector minions upon him/her and the rest of the human race, because... well... they are evil and suddenly picked this point to attack (coincidentally right after Sovereign died even though he was also their enemy for some reason) 
[/quote]
Naturally, with their secrets given out by Sovereign, they had to get on with the Plan A a little ahead of schedule, because the time began to work against them.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Crystal clear
[/quote]
Pretty much.

[midasear]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why not a "Palpatine gambit" first?

I assume Soveriegn's "destruction" was intentional and was, in fact, the beginning of such a strategy.   Literally hundreds of pieces of indoctrination-nanotech-infested debris were rained over the primary urban crossroads of galactic civilization, then rapidly scooped by the different interstellar governments and transported to hi-tech research facilities all over the galaxy, to be examined and prodded by the must trusted scientists and important officials.

Come to think of it, perhaps that is what the Prothean facility on Illos was actually tasked with?  Studying the peices of a "defeated" Reaper....

[Uzrbital]

Saren used the conduit to get to that mass relay look alike in Presidium.

[P38 ace]

Zulu

your really countering every thing he said, with stupid one liners

ME1 and soverian was plan A, it had worked countless times before, so why not do it the easy way and use a mass relay to get back
but Oh appariltly comeing from you, Burning tons of fuel just to get back and hoping no one notices a huge fleet of a billion reapers flying through space and letting all the citadel fleet together and have the reapers sustaine huge losses
as mortin would say "too many varibles"
when the ME1 plan failed, they moved to Plan B aka ME2 and to use the collectors

[Zulu_DFA]

P38 ace wrote...

ME1 and soverian was plan A,

Source? i mean, since I question Vigil's credibility, can it be confiremed from another independent source?

P38 ace wrote...


it had worked countless times before,

But it was already not working this time, so ... "Harbie, bro, come get me! - your bud Sovie."

P38 ace wrote...



so why not do it the easy way and use a mass relay to get back

looks like a very hard way, seeing how fast the comeback is anyway.

P38 ace wrote...



but Oh appariltly comeing from you, Burning tons of fuel just to get back

Tell me please, which "fuel" do the Reapers "burn"? High octane? Or are they on diesel?

Even if they do need "fuel" but are careless enough to not have an extra canister of it in their trunk, they can just stop by in an uncharted system(s) and refill their tank before attacking, problem solved.

P38 ace wrote...



and hoping no one notices a huge fleet of a billion reapers flying through space

At FTL speeds? In thousands of light years of vacuum? Good luck with that!

P38 ace wrote...



and letting all the citadel fleet together and have the reapers sustaine huge losses

You kidding, right? Each Reaper is more powerfull that a dreadnought and all organic races combined have - what, less than a hundred of them? The Reapers can cut through it like butter.

P38 ace wrote...



as mortin would say "too many varibles"
when the ME1 plan failed, they moved to Plan B aka ME2 and to use the collectors

The Collectors have been active for ~500 years already.

And too many variables would have been there, if they had Sovereign as their "Plan A". But they didn't.

[Bogsnot1]

Plan A - Rachni.
Collectors go into active duty studying species, looking for the next suitable race. Initially Rachni seemed to be the prevalent choice due to strength of species and technological advancement. This comes to an end after the Krogan go bug hunting. Collectors shift their focus to Krogan as the next possibility, only to give up when the Salarians and Turians knock them down with the genophage. Collectors then start looking all around the place.
Plan B - Sovereign, Saren & Geth.
"Humans" kill Soveriegn. This marks them as the most appropriate species for Ascension.
Plan C - Collectors + Human Reaper.
Human lead team of all raced defeat them. Harby rages hard.
Plan D - Zerg Rush (Arrival)
Plan is once again defeated by a human. Harby and gang rage even harder.
Plan E - Zerg Rush Earth (ME3)

[Uzrbital]

Collectors = Protheans, or am I wrong? I'm damn sure they mentioned that in ME2.

[Black Raptor]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's right. Gene therapy of your own species that you have had centuries to study without any rush seems a lot simpler than some undetectable signal originating with a billions-year-old alien machines, especially if it is not even "on" at the moment of the "figuring it out". Even if your personal field of study is neither of the two.
[/quote]
Why is the signal undetectable? Chorban managed to find it after only 2 years even though examining the Keepers was illegal at the time. Why is it unfathomable that Prothean scientists with the rest of their lives to spend couldn't find the same thing? Not only that, but they were actively looking for the signal as they knew about the Reapers and the Keepers involvement by then (something Chorban didn't). Gene theorpy on the other hand, would require equipement they didn't have and knowledge they didn't know. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Where? They died on the Citadel, remember?
[/quote]
Erm... Prothean beacon network? It's not difficult to imagine that they had other ways of transmitting data across the galaxy. Liara finds a working Prothean terminal at one of her digsites which mentions Ilos being linked with the Prothean extinction. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's right. The "12 scientists" forsaw the events of ME1 in detail 50K years ago. They, however, failed to realize that the Reapers weren't trapped in the dark space and could be back in no time.[/quote] The 12 scientists acted as best they could to stop the cycle using the knowledge they had gathered. Such knowledge would not allow them to predict the Reapers wouldn't give up so easy and that their first course of action would be to find out how the Protheans managed to deactivate the citadel relay and retrace their steps. Hence the Protheans installed Vigil to let others know of their plight.




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
What? Saren was born 2K years after the Citadel was discovered!
[/quote] and this stops him from learning about Vigil how?
If Vigil had been discovered on the Citadel before the events of ME1 then Saren would of known about him and made sure that he had the Citadel override key first. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Seeing as how the owners of the Citadel were nowhere to be seen and didn't throw a welcome party for the newcomers, the asari and salarians might have taken heed. You know, just like Shepard, with the only difference that it was almost already too late...
[/quote] except that Shepard knew about the Reapers by the time they found Vigil. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Right, and that's why they couldn't also tell if going into hybernation (both spellings are correct, BTW) would matter at all. So, again why go into hybernation, when your only supposed saving grace is secrecy?
[/quote] 
Firstly, hybernation isn't a correct spelling of hibernation. Secondly, you haven't argued your side. They had no way of knowing if hibernation would be important or not, but they decided to risk it against the complete extermination of their species. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's not a strawman argument, that's an analogy. A simplification in order to give you more chances to understand the situation the Protheans were allegedly in on Ilos. And that instead of behaving like a scientifically advanced society, they acted like little kids, or so we're told.
[/quote] It wasn't an analogy. What's wrong with hiding when faced with undefeatable opponents? That isn't childish.




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Citadel is not a relay (see ME: Genesis).
[/quote] ?? Genesis collaborates with the actual plot in its entirety. At no point does it claim that the Citadel is not a relay. Besides, as Genesis is Shepard recounting this story how did he learn that the Citadel wasn't a relay if he still believes vigil?


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And stop nothing, seeing how the Reapers are just 3-4 years away from invading the Galaxy anyway.
[/quote] They've stopped them gaining the element of surprise and the ability to wipe out the entire goverening body straight away. Having only the fact that the Reapers entered through the Citadel, the Protheans could hardly be expected to know about the Reapers other plans in the event of the first one failing.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
All Sovereign needed was to tell Harbinger "Sorry, the Citadel is broken, come back the old fashioned way".
That would have preserved the element of surprise, BTW.
[/quote] 
With a much harder fight as they wouldn't gain control of the Citadel or the Mass Relays. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why not the Collectors?
[/quote] It's like you've never even played the games... Geth=an entire race with billions of soldiers and trillions of individuals, thousands of ships and several systems under their control. Already feared by the galaxy for almost killing the Quarians off. Helps conceal the true motives of Saren for much longer.

Collectors=few in number perhaps only a few hundred individuals. 1 ship, 1 space station. The only thing going for them is advanced technology but Cerberus manages to counter that relatively quickly. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why not a "Palpatine gambit" first?
[/quote] because they were hoping to make a better plot than the starwars prequels. 




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which begs the question, why the "Plan B" wasn't "Plan A" in the first place, seeing how it's way more foolproof...
[/quote] 
Me3 will tell. Maybe the Reapers placed too much confidence in plan A. 
[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 


Your theory: Sovereign is a rogue reaper (with unknown motives) who works with Saren and the geth for an unknown reason in pursuit of an unknown goal under the guise of pretending to unleash the rest of the Reapers on the galaxy (because that will stop people opposing him or something...) by using the Citadel for... something.
[/quote]
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's right, only I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "(because that will stop people opposing him or something...)". I never said Sovereign was a nice guy. Its plan was just as sinister as Harbinger's regarding the fate of the organic civilization.
[/quote]
Because lying about his true motives by pretending to unleash the Reapers and wipe out life in the galaxy is such a great diversion from his real plan of wiping out all life in the galaxy by magic or something. 
Why did Sovereign lie and why does it turn out that Sovereigns "lie" is the actual plan of the unrogue Reapers. Why is Sovereign rogue - what is his real plan?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Conisdering Shepard & Co have already figured out a lot about the cycle, admitting this part was the best way for Vigil to sell its lies to Shepard. At the same time, notice how Vigil discouraged Shepard from digging any deeper into the matter, pretending the proposed solution - install the "datafile" and defeat Sovereign - was a permanent one.[/quote] because Vigil magically knew how much Shepard had learned... 

Also funny how the Reapers planned to stop Sovereign using Vigil when they had no idea he was rogue (according to you) and just happened to know exactly what to do to stop Sovereign.



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Harbinger was unaware of Sovereign's activities up to the attack on Eden Prime.
[/quote]source? Why wait? And why did the Collectors only start focusing on Humans after Sovereign's defeat? 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
A "thank you" from Harbie? ROFLMAO!!!
[/quote] 
That tends to happen when people foil a traitors plan. Of course Sovereign wasn't actually rogue and Harbinger didn't thank Shepard because Sovereign was on his side.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Naturally, with their secrets given out by Sovereign, they had to get on with the Plan A a little ahead of schedule, because the time began to work against them.
[/quote]
Why? Why didn't Vigil say that Sovereign was the only Reaper if that were the case? Why target only humans if Sovereign's defeat was unimportant or advantageos to them?


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Pretty much.[/quote]
Only you think that. Everyone else is too smart.
It's pretty clear you're just a troll though, but I'd feel sorry for you if you actually believe your "theory"

Modifié par Black Raptor, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[Bogsnot1]

Uzrbital wrote...
Collectors = Protheans, or am I wrong? I'm damn sure they mentioned that in ME2.

Based upon EDI's examination of Collector and Prothean DNA, yes. EDI could be wrong, but so far, the evidence matches her conjecture.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

Why is the signal undetectable? Chorban managed to find it after only 2 years even though examining the Keepers was illegal at the time.
[/quote]
Chorban only determined that it's a "some kind of signal". But, since the signal was not present, it was impossible to study its nature.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Why is it unfathomable that Prothean scientists with the rest of their lives to spend couldn't find the same thing? Not only that, but they were actively looking for the signal as they knew about the Reapers and the Keepers involvement by then (something Chorban didn't). Gene theorpy on the other hand, would require equipement they didn't have and knowledge they didn't know.
[/quote]
Yeah, but how they managed to "switch off" the Keepers? Not only those that were on the station at the time but all the others for the 50000 years to come? That would require understanding and manipulation of the Keepers' genetics, which is obviously more difficult than the same thing with your own species.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Erm... Prothean beacon network? It's not difficult to imagine that they had other ways of transmitting data across the galaxy.[/quote]
Didn't the Reapers broke it all?

If not, why? Are they inept?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Liara finds a working Prothean terminal at one of her digsites which mentions Ilos being linked with the Prothean extinction.[/quote]
So the "12 scientists" transmitted the data to dig sites, but didn't left a note on the Citadel...



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



The 12 scientists acted as best they could to stop the cycle using the knowledge they had gathered. Such knowledge would not allow them to predict the Reapers wouldn't give up so easy and that their first course of action would be to find out how the Protheans managed to deactivate the citadel relay and retrace their steps. Hence the Protheans installed Vigil to let others know of their plight.
[/quote]
This is such a mess of thought that I scarcely know what to address first... I think I'll just repeat myself once more: why install Vigil in the deepest ass of the galaxy they'd been hiding in, instead of the Citadel? You see, Ilos = hiding place, hard to find, even without the Mu relay problems; Citadel = hotspot, can't miss, no clues needed. So, once more: if they wanted to be as efective as possible, why not make a copy of Vigil, and install it in the easiest to find place in the galaxy?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

and this stops him from learning about Vigil how?[/quote]
That wouldn't stop him, but he'd be 2000 years too late, as others would have studied it thouroughly by that time. BTW, something tells me that on the Citadel there wouldn't have been any problems with power supply for just one extra VI...




[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



If Vigil had been discovered on the Citadel before the events of ME1 then Saren would of known about him and made sure that he had the Citadel override key first. [/quote]
By the time Saren was born, it would have been too late for the override keys. If all the tips and clues to the Prothean extinction weren't left behind on a lost planet, the Citadel would have been studied more thouroughly, leading to understanding of its true function. All the "12 scientists" needed to do was to leave some kind of "It's a trap!" note ON THE CITADEL ITSELF, rather than sending messages to dilapidated ruins sites.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...
except that Shepard knew about the Reapers by the time they found Vigil.[/quote]
And that cancels what I said how? He knew about the Reapers from the same "12 scientists", indirectly, (if we go by Vigil's tale), so what obstacles had there been to putting all those messages in the Citadel's "terminals"? Why 
weren't
there any writhings on the walls of the Citadel?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Firstly, hybernation isn't a correct spelling of hibernation.[/quote]
All right, I'll give you this. Seems I have to retire my source on this issue...



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Secondly, you haven't argued your side. They had no way of knowing if hibernation would be important or not, but they decided to risk it against the complete extermination of their species.[/quote]
In other words, they couldn't tell if it was going to work any better than staying awake and actively maintaing their civilization, if on one planet only.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



It wasn't an analogy. What's wrong with hiding when faced with undefeatable opponents? That isn't childish.
[/quote]
It was. They weren't facing the opponents. The opponents presumably didn't know they existed, but if the Reapers knew about them, there wouldn't be any point in hiding. But the Protheans still hid. Like kids.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

 

Genesis collaborates with the actual plot in its entirety. At no point does it claim that the Citadel is not a relay.
[/quote]
It does. In Genesis, Shepard thinks that the Citadel controls some "relays to dark space", which are separate entities from the Citadel.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Besides, as Genesis is Shepard recounting this story how did he learn that the Citadel wasn't a relay if he still believes vigil?
[/quote]
There is no "Vigil" in Genesis at all. Shepard says there was some "Prothean database" on Ilos, and that's it.

It still goes by the "sentinel/vanguard" description of Sovereign and the notion that the Protheans jammed the Citadel somehow...

Yet, this still is in a huge contradiction with what ME2 and ME3 bring about, namely, that the real "sentinels" for the Reapers were the Collectors, and that the Reapers don't need the Citadel or "relays to dark space" to get back to the Galaxy in a negligible amount of time.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



They've stopped them gaining the element of surprise and the ability to wipe out the entire goverening body straight away.[/quote]
You mean the element of surprise from the ME3 "Fall of Earth" trailer? If the Reapers needed to attack the Citadel first , they could do it just the same.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Having only the fact that the Reapers entered through the Citadel, the Protheans could hardly be expected to know about the Reapers other plans in the event of the first one failing.[/quote]
Are you saying the "12 scientists" were stupid?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



With a much harder fight as they wouldn't gain control of the Citadel or the Mass Relays. 
[/quote]
If they want the Citadel first, they may as well attack the Citadel first. With the full element of surprise, same as we've seen in the ME3 openning trailers.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



It's like you've never even played the games... Geth=an entire race with billions of soldiers and trillions of individuals, thousands of ships and several systems under their control. Already feared by the galaxy for almost killing the Quarians off. Helps conceal the true motives of Saren for much longer.

Collectors=few in number perhaps only a few hundred individuals. 1 ship, 1 space station. The only thing going for them is advanced technology but Cerberus manages to counter that relatively quickly. [/quote]
The Collectors have been active since before the Geth were even invented by the Quarians. The Reapers could carfully use them to slowly gain control (indoctrinate) any race they liked - or the Council itself - under the guise of "diplomatic relationships" or whatnot. Then there has always been the Shadow Broker...

But no, Sovereign suddenly starts flying back and forth, corrupts the Geth that have always been regarded as a threat by the rest of the galaxy, tries to blow up some colonies, and ultimately fails.

Why would Sovereign "get desperate" (in Vigil's words), if its buddies were just a few years away, but not trapped at all?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why not a "Palpatine gambit" first?
[/quote] because they were hoping to make a better plot than the starwars prequels. [/quote]
But they failed, didn't they?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

Me3 will tell.
[/quote]
Amen. Don't say I didn't warn you.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


Maybe the Reapers placed too much confidence in plan A. [/quote]
Even though it was obviously not working. They are inept, right?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

Because lying about his true motives by pretending to unleash the Reapers and wipe out life in the galaxy is such a great diversion from his real plan of wiping out all life in the galaxy by magic or something. 
Why did Sovereign lie and why does it turn out that Sovereigns "lie" is the actual plan of the unrogue Reapers. Why is Sovereign rogue - what is his real plan?
[/quote]
What are the real plans of the Reapers? Who knows. But they ain't anything good, and neither was Sovereign's plan.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

because Vigil magically knew how much Shepard had learned...[/quote]
The Shadow Broker knew, which means the Collectors knew, which means Harbinger knew...


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...  


Also funny how the Reapers planned to stop Sovereign using Vigil when they had no idea he was rogue (according to you) and just happened to know exactly what to do to stop Sovereign.
[/quote]
They had no idea until Sovereign was recorded on video during the Eden Prime attack. That was Harbinger's "Sh8t, that bastard Nazara is alive and gonna royally f*ck us up!" moment. That's why Vigil gave Shepard the "datafile" to stop Sovereign.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

source?[/quote]
Conjecture.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Why wait?
[/quote]
Until Sovereign's goof there was nothing to worry about.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

And why did the Collectors only start focusing on Humans after Sovereign's defeat? [/quote]
Because with the Sovereign's destruction, time began working against the Reapers.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

That tends to happen when people foil a traitors plan.
[/quote]
Not if those who foil the traitor's plan are your enemies too.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Of course Sovereign wasn't actually rogue and Harbinger didn't thank Shepard because Sovereign was on his side.
[/quote]
Yeah? Harbinger didn't sound too upset about Sovereign's untimely demise.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

Why? Why didn't Vigil say that Sovereign was the only Reaper if that were the case?
[/quote]
Would you believe that Sovereign could be responsible for a galaxy-wide extinction event all by itself? It's always better to give away a part of truth ("there are a lot of Reapers") only to sell your biggest lies ("they are trapped far away").



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 



Why target only humans if Sovereign's defeat was unimportant or advantageos to them?[/quote]
You tell me. Aren't the Humans special? Judging by Harbinger's comments on your squadmates, that has nothing to do with Sovereign's destruction though. And everything to do with the "genetic potential" or something like that, whatever the Collectors were studying on those small size samples of slaves they had been occasionally buying from pirates.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 
Only you think that. Everyone else is too smart.
It's pretty clear you're just a troll though, but I'd feel sorry for you if you actually believe your "theory"
[/quote]
I'd feel sorry for myself, if I was getting along with Vigil's nonsensical tale. But there again, if I was getting along with it, I wouldn't know there's a reason to feel sorry about myself, would I?

[midasear]

Maybe....

The Prothean team DID die from malnutrition.  Keeper "farmed" NutriPaste is an adequate staple food (for some specieis) when supplemented by other sources for vitamins and essential proteiens.  But as with a diet consisting of nothing but raw millet or untreated maize in humans, the absence of essential nutrients dooms those eating an unsupplemented diet  to severe health problems in time.  Nutripaste might also  contain nutrients essential to Keeper life that are toxic (at least to a degree)  to Protheans.

The Prothean team probably DID install a copy of Vigil on the Citadel.  But the Keepers repurposed it using their version of OmniGel tens of  thousands of years before the first Asari showed up.  They Keepers probably tried to do the same with the Conduit repeatedly, gave up after multiple failures, dumped it on a rubbish heap and then ignored it.

Twelve individual humans probably would be enough to create a breeding population and preserve the Human species.  This appears to have actually happened a few times on Islands in the Pacific and Indian Ocean.  But it is almost certainly NOT enough to rebuild an advanced civilization, especially if all the survivors have to work with is a bunch of bombed out ruins and a secret underground research lab several hundred years behind on its maintenance schedule.  The survivor's descendant's would rapidly descend to technologically and culturally to the late Iron age...at best.

There are also hints that the Protheans were a hive-based multi-caste (and possibly multi-specieis) society, and "quad strand" DNA implies the possibility of 4 different sexes.  In such a case, reconstituting the Prothean race from the inhabitants of the research base alone might have been impossible even if ALL the personell survived.  A caste or sub-species essential to replicating a functional breeding colony of Protheans may have been completely absent. (Alternate Hypothesis:  The Rachni are descendants of an attempt, failed or otherwise, by Protheans on Illos or elsewhere to reconstitute Prothean civilization...the Rachni DID know the location of the MU Relay leading to Illos, after all....)

The Prothean scientists use the Consuit instead of Mass Relays because they suspect that use of the Reaper-created relays will signal the Reapers or their servants.

As for Illos, its obvious that Illos was attacked by the Reapers and its surface ecosystem was destroyed.  It was the research facility that was secret, not the entire planet.

[P38 ace]

Ok so you question the Knowlege of a 50 some thousand year old Prothian AI, id like to see you come up with a better story than virgle did to explain every thing that happen to the Prothians and how the reapers did it, with flawless logic and what other scorce is still alive, you sure can't go ask the collectors, or the reapers, and live to tell anyone

but soverian still had a chance to use it, so logicly do it the easy way: use the relay
rememder the Reapers are still "asleep in dark space, they have no clue what is going on

ok so the fasted way is the hardest way now, what logic is this

get the reapers to the citidel, destroy most of the fleet there, cut off all communication between planets, and lock down the mass relays
in one sweep cut cut comms, cut logistics, destroy defences, and capture the capitol, leading to major drop in will power and hope

this is a perfect military stratogie, its a bliz to end all bliz's, and its the Hard Way??????

they use H-3 gas and dark matter as fuel, do you not read the codex, i don't know if tech can detect dark matter, but a whole Gas giant or 10 just up and dissapering is kind of noticable if you ask me

did you talk the the head engineer in ME1, going at FTL speeds, is like setting off a flare gun, that Says "Here i am" and all of them going FTL would be like a trail of nuetron bombs going off in space
THAT is REAL invisable.

but in galtic stutained battles with Dreads, Carriers, Cruisers, Frigates, and Fighters, all totaling a million ships +, would be a hard fight still, and i don't think the reapers what to risk it, especialy now with the Thalanx cannons stolen off Sorverian him self, the new sheilds and armor

but what have they been doing in that ~500 years, they only resenly started abducting whole colonies, AFTER, Soverian was destroyed

why is it sooo hard to think soverian was Plan A, it had worked before and should have worked again but the prothians stopped it by blocking the reapers signal to the citidel

so why did Soverian try and attack the citadel, HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAVE US COULD HE????? no he's a Reaper, he want's us dead,

why not just wait for the rest of the reapers, infact why would they leave Soverian back to monitor the tech leavels if they had an alram clock that would just wake them up and say, "OK TIME KILL ALL SENTIENT LIFE" oh thats right Soverain was the alarm clock

[Drake-Shepard]

Being alive or sentient beings or whatever they call it, do you think the extra long FTL flight from darkspace weakens them. That could explain why citadel is plan A. along with the obvious tactical advantage. So the galaxy species stand a better chance now?
Kind of like the wraith in Stargate atlantis, they are organic and grown though so they have to keep stopping their hyper drive to regenerate, i haven't read enough codex to know exactly how reapers work.

What i find funny is the reapers have obviously relied on secrecy to launch their surprise attack, but soveriegn just insists on telling him the grand plan. Just sooo overly confident!

[Black Raptor]

Drake-Shepard wrote...
What i find funny is the reapers have obviously relied on secrecy to launch their surprise attack, but soveriegn just insists on telling him the grand plan. Just sooo overly confident!

It was pretty close to completion at that point, and Sovereign and Saren couldn't of known about Vigil.

[Drake-Shepard]

yeah your right sovereign didn't actually reveal the plan about the citadel relay, just that they were coming.
And there was no point in blowing up vigil, shepard would of kept on his tail anyway. In fact listening to vigil slowed shepard down increasing Saren's chance of success.

[Black Raptor]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Chorban only determined that it's a "some kind of signal". But, since the signal was not present, it was impossible to study its nature.
[/quote]
So what is the purpose of this signal in your theory? 
The signal would have been present when the Protheans were looking for it and unlike Chorban, they were looking for it.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yeah, but how they managed to "switch off" the Keepers? Not only those that were on the station at the time but all the others for the 50000 years to come? That would require understanding and manipulation of the Keepers' genetics, which is obviously more difficult than the same thing with your own species.
[/quote] 
Well for a start, everything needed to control the Keeper's reproduction and genetic manipulation would already be fully functioning on the Citadel. Secondly, they are only blocking a signal, not creating a entire subspecies. Mutate one code and that's it.  

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Didn't the Reapers broke it all?

If not, why? Are they inept?
[/quote] Again, didn't you play the games? You see the beacon network in ME1, you see Prothean ruins all over the place, you go to Ilos and you're trying to claim the Reapers had destroyed it all? 

Wiping out every trace of existence from a galactic race would be pretty hard. The Reapers probably only did a small clean up job and let time do the rest.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
So the "12 scientists" transmitted the data to dig sites, but didn't left a note on the Citadel...
[/quote] 
The Keepers clean everything up on the Citadel. Perhaps the Protheans had left something, but the Keepers cleaned it up like they do with everything else. They rearrange stuff even when people are living there after all.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is such a mess of thought that I scarcely know what to address first... I think I'll just repeat myself once more: why install Vigil in the deepest ass of the galaxy they'd been hiding in, instead of the Citadel? You see, Ilos = hiding place, hard to find, even without the Mu relay problems; Citadel = hotspot, can't miss, no clues needed. So, once more: if they wanted to be as efective as possible, why not make a copy of Vigil, and install it in the easiest to find place in the galaxy?[/quote]
Citadel=Reaper made and controlled ultimately by the Keepers who do the Reaper's bidding. Any clues left there may not have survived. We can't even know if the Protheans tried to leave anything on the Citadel.

Ilos=place hidden from the Reapers and the place where the last surviving Protheans were. It had the key to how the Protheans stopped the cycle. The Protheans left clues after the Reapers had left to find Vigil and didn't know the Mu relay would get lost. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
That wouldn't stop him, but he'd be 2000 years too late, as others would have studied it thouroughly by that time. BTW, something tells me that on the Citadel there wouldn't have been any problems with power supply for just one extra VI...
[/quote]
Yes and all Vigil's plans would have gone to waste because Saren would have found out about it. Vigils citadel override wouldn't work if Saren had any knowledge about it's existence. 
But again, as we know the Keepers probably wouldn't have left a working VI alone for 50000 years. 



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
By the time Saren was born, it would have been too late for the override keys. If all the tips and clues to the Prothean extinction weren't left behind on a lost planet, the Citadel would have been studied more thouroughly, leading to understanding of its true function. All the "12 scientists" needed to do was to leave some kind of "It's a trap!" note ON THE CITADEL ITSELF, rather than sending messages to dilapidated ruins sites.
[/quote]Keepers clean the Citadel. Any notes wouldn't have survived.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And that cancels what I said how? He knew about the Reapers from the same "12 scientists", indirectly, (if we go by Vigil's tale), so what obstacles had there been to putting all those messages in the Citadel's "terminals"? Why 
weren't
there any writhings on the walls of the Citadel?
[/quote]Keepers. 
It's all explained in the Codex if you were to actually pay attention to the games. The Keepers control everything about the Citadel and were probably programed to make sure no messages survived from past races. (after all, after each cycle they probably have a lot of cleaning up to do)







[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
In other words, they couldn't tell if it was going to work any better than staying awake and actively maintaing their civilization, if on one planet only.
[/quote] Exactly, but they were willing to take the risk. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
It was. They weren't facing the opponents. The opponents presumably didn't know they existed, but if the Reapers knew about them, there wouldn't be any point in hiding. But the Protheans still hid. Like kids.
[/quote] The Protheans wanted to make sure they weren't found. Even if the Reapers weren't looking for them in particular, they were looking for signs of Protheans. 
Faced with an enemy who'd settle for nothing less that your utter annihilation and who you cannot fight, making sure you are well hidden is not childish.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
It does. In Genesis, Shepard thinks that the Citadel controls some "relays to dark space", which are separate entities from the Citadel.
[/quote] Hardly a compelling argument. The Citadel control's the relay to dark space, but it could also be that relay. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
There is no "Vigil" in Genesis at all. Shepard says there was some "Prothean database" on Ilos, and that's it.
[/quote] Are you trying to claim that the "Prothean database" wasn't Vigil? There was no mention of Ferros or the Geth in Genesis. Were they also not in ME1?
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
It still goes by the "sentinel/vanguard" description of Sovereign and the notion that the Protheans jammed the Citadel somehow...

Yet, this still is in a huge contradiction with what ME2 and ME3 bring about, namely, that the real "sentinels" for the Reapers were the Collectors, and that the Reapers don't need the Citadel or "relays to dark space" to get back to the Galaxy in a negligible amount of time.[/quote] The Collectors weren't Vanguards. They also didn't have the power to indoctrinate, unlike the Reapers.



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
You mean the element of surprise from the ME3 "Fall of Earth" trailer? If the Reapers needed to attack the Citadel first , they could do it just the same.
[/quote]
Have you played ME3 already? No? Then why are you claiming to know the exact circumstances in which the story unfolds?


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Are you saying the "12 scientists" were stupid?
[/quote] No, I'm trying to get across that they only had knowledge regarding the Reapers Plan A. They had no way of knowing or predicting what the other plans would be. They couldn't be sure that Plan A was the Reapers ony plan.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
If they want the Citadel first, they may as well attack the Citadel first. With the full element of surprise, same as we've seen in the ME3 openning trailers.
[/quote] Except that they don't have the element of surprise and also, you don't know the story of ME3. All we know is that the Reapers are attacking Earth first. 
Apart from the fact that humans have foiled their plan 3 times, we have nothing else to go on as to why they wouldn't attack somewhere else first. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Collectors have been active since before the Geth were even invented by the Quarians. The Reapers could carfully use them to slowly gain control (indoctrinate) any race they liked - or the Council itself - under the guise of "diplomatic relationships" or whatnot. Then there has always been the Shadow Broker...

But no, Sovereign suddenly starts flying back and forth, corrupts the Geth that have always been regarded as a threat by the rest of the galaxy, tries to blow up some colonies, and ultimately fails.

Why would Sovereign "get desperate" (in Vigil's words), if its buddies were just a few years away, but not trapped at all?
[/quote]
Collectors cannot indoctrinate. Indoctrinated beings lose their competance and stop being useful. The Geth required no indoctrination. 




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

But they failed, didn't they?
[/quote] 
Very few things are worse than the Star wars prequels. And the plot of ME1 (the actual plot, not yours) is actually very good. Hence why the game has so many fans despite the gameplay being crap and unfinished.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Amen. Don't say I didn't warn you.
[/quote] I have a feeling we won't be seeing much of you after March 6 2012.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Even though it was obviously not working. They are inept, right?
[/quote] They tried to fix it. We don't know how disadvantageos there other plans were compared to the original plan. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
What are the real plans of the Reapers? Who knows. But they ain't anything good, and neither was Sovereign's plan.[/quote] Reapers' plan is to eradicate all sentient life in the galaxy. Their ultimate goal might be unknown. (or could just be procreation as seen in ME2) but unimportant regardless. 
What's Sovereigns plan? Nobody knows. There isn't even a plausible explanation for him going rogue and why does he pretend to still be on the same side as the other Reapers when speaking to Shepard.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Shadow Broker knew, which means the Collectors knew, which means Harbinger knew...
[/quote] But they all learnt it after it had already happened. Vigil couldn't have learnt about it while it was still ongoing. How would he have known that Sovereign pretended to still work with the Reapers on Virmire?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
They had no idea until Sovereign was recorded on video during the Eden Prime attack. That was Harbinger's "Sh8t, that bastard Nazara is alive and gonna royally f*ck us up!" moment. That's why Vigil gave Shepard the "datafile" to stop Sovereign.
[/quote] What was Sovereign doing that was so detrimental to the Reapers that it had to be stopped even after the Reapers had been discovered? 
The Datafile only allowed Shepard to gain control of the Citadel for a short time and open the arms to let the fleet in. If Vigil was a Reaper construction, why not give Shepard a data file that stopped Sovereign having any chance of doing whatever it was he was trying to do to the citadel if it wasn't a relay but something else entirely with some other unknown function. 



[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Until Sovereign's goof there was nothing to worry about.
[/quote]
It had been 50000 years since the last 50000 year cycle. Why did Sovereign wait until now? Why is he rogue in the first place and what is his goal and why is it so terrible to organic life that he has to pretend it will only result in their extinction when questioned?


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Because with the Sovereign's destruction, time began working against the Reapers.
[/quote] But why only focus on Humans? Why only start after Sovereign was destroyed instead of after they learnt about his betrayal. 




[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yeah? Harbinger didn't sound too upset about Sovereign's untimely demise.
[/quote] Showing emotion would be a weakness. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Would you believe that Sovereign could be responsible for a galaxy-wide extinction event all by itself? It's always better to give away a part of truth ("there are a lot of Reapers" ) only to sell your biggest lies ("they are trapped far away" ).
[/quote] They would have no reason not to believe Sovereign wasn't capable of such a deed. Besides, your whole plot revolves around Sovereign doing something which eventually involves the galaxy-wide extinction event. Why not tell part of the truth and give away Sovereign's plan (which Vigil had magically learnt about) without letting slip there were other Reapers who wanted Sovereign to be stopped.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
You tell me. Aren't the Humans special? Judging by Harbinger's comments on your squadmates, that has nothing to do with Sovereign's destruction though. And everything to do with the "genetic potential" or something like that, whatever the Collectors were studying on those small size samples of slaves they had been occasionally buying from pirates.[/quote] Genetic potential that enabled humans to destroy Sovereign. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
I'd feel sorry for myself, if I was getting along with Vigil's nonsensical tale. But there again, if I was getting along with it, I wouldn't know there's a reason to feel sorry about myself, would I?[/quote]
His tale makes perfect sense. You've yet to give a proper example as to how it fails under scrutiny. Most of your replies are just more and more desperate attempts to defend your nonsensical argument without actually providing any evidence as to why it is the case.

Occams Razor. The simplest solution is always the right one. The problem in this case being why didn't the Reapers just fly into the galaxy "arrival style" instead of going by the plot in ME1. 

Easy solution=There is a disadvantage to the Arrival style attack which we don't know about.
Complicated solution=everything that happened in ME1 and ME2 is a lie and Sovereign is rogue but still pretends to be with the Reapers and Vigil learns about this by magic and is able to stop Sovereign and his unknown plan but is still unable to lie about the other Reapers and instead just tell Shepard Sovereign's true plan. 

Modifié par Black Raptor, 29 juillet 2011 - 12:45 .

[Black Raptor]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

yeah your right sovereign didn't actually reveal the plan about the citadel relay, just that they were coming.
And there was no point in blowing up vigil, shepard would of kept on his tail anyway. In fact listening to vigil slowed shepard down increasing Saren's chance of success.

Vigil was needed to give Shepard control of the Citadel and open the arms for the Alliance fleet. 

Saren would have suceeded otherwise. 

[Drake-Shepard]

Was vigil physically between the relay and the the entrance to ilos? or did you have to take a little detour, did saren actually come across vigil or did he skip it. i can't remember what vigil said in regards to sarens party!
yep, either way, im guessing saren didn't know vigil had some special code control hack to give to shepard or else he would of blown it sky high, so theres no plot holes here.


To the debate above, the 12 prothean scientists that went through...i mean they had a number of years to plan it and they are quite intelligent after all, leaving a note behind, or a vigil or a vigil that activated as soon a keeper signal was attempted to be sent seems like a very rational thing to do to warn other species..i mean that was the whole point.But sovereign is monitoring the galaxy if an early space faring race were warned of reapers the reapers could find out they know and kill them easily because their tech has not evolved to a point where they stand any chance whats so ever. So this plan would be pointless.

Also,the reapers have done this like 100 times, they know pretty much all possible rebellious acts by the species they have just conquered...them trying to get back to the citadel is one of them. Soveriegn who was staying back may have down a fly-by once a year to see the citadel population status or have some proximity sensors allowing him to know when someone set foot on the citadel again..then come back and whiped them out and found any messages or ordered keepers to whipe them (not noticing the key mass relay opening signal has been blocked). but then he would know there was a plan and indoctrinate them to find it out, but then the protheons could just kill themselves when they first noticed they were almost caught. the possibilities are endless lol

[Black Raptor]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Was vigil physically between the relay and the the entrance to ilos? or did you have to take a little detour, did saren actually come across vigil or did he skip it. i can't remember what vigil said in regards to sarens party!
yep, either way, im guessing saren didn't know vigil had some special code control hack to give to shepard or else he would of blown it sky high, so theres no plot holes here.

Vigil lured Shepard in after Saren had passed. It was off the beaten path, but Vigil detected the taint of indoctrination on Sarens party so Saren was not called to Vigil and therefore had no knowledge of him. 

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

So what is the purpose of this signal in your theory? 
[/quote]
You tell me. Can be anything, really. Like, "All keepers, attack and kill the residents of the Citadel". Don't say I haven't warned you, when Keeper 20 comes chargin' at ya.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



The signal would have been present when the Protheans were looking for it and unlike Chorban, they were looking for it.[/quote]
How the signal could be present, if the Reapers had already finished their business and gone back to the dark space by the time the "12 scientists" even awoke, let alone came to the Citadel to study the Keepers?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Well for a start, everything needed to control the Keeper's reproduction and genetic manipulation would already be fully functioning on the Citadel. Secondly, they are only blocking a signal, not creating a entire subspecies. Mutate one code and that's it.
[/quote]
Not only that means creating an entire new subspecies of the Keepers - an irresponsive to the signal one - but also elimination the former, the responsive one. That requires a hell lot more of insight into the Keepers' genetics, than randomizing the genetic pool of a population of your own species.

That, and, once again, inbreeding could not be an obstacle to repopulating the galaxy even without gene randomization. Because it would only require to cull (kill) the defective infants, which would only be about one in four of them. Given the state of emergency, I can't see how that could be a problem with the surviving Protheans.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


Again, didn't you play the games? You see the beacon network in ME1, you see Prothean ruins all over the place, you go to Ilos and you're trying to claim the Reapers had destroyed it all? 

Wiping out every trace of existence from a galactic race would be pretty hard. The Reapers probably only did a small clean up job and let time do the rest.
[/quote]
I claim that the all the Prothean infrastructure remaining is inoperational... except that part of it which the Reapers left operational intentionally - as a trap.

On the other hand, your claim that the Reapers didn't bother with more than a sloppy job runs counter to Vigil's own tale about the hundreds of years it took for the Reapers of systematic and thorough work.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



The Keepers clean everything up on the Citadel. Perhaps the Protheans had left something, but the Keepers cleaned it up like they do with everything else. They rearrange stuff even when people are living there after all.
[/quote]
Yet, the Keepers don't touch the Conduit "statue". Why not put a sign on it? A placard?

BTW, why don't the Keepers remove the "statue"? Were they altered to ignore it? Then they could be altered to not touch any other Prothean things, including "Beware, Reapers!" signs and placards.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Citadel=Reaper made and controlled ultimately by the Keepers who do the Reaper's bidding. Any clues left there may not have survived. We can't even know if the Protheans tried to leave anything on the Citadel.
[/quote]
See above. And, you know, it's always bugged me: why would the Reapers need Keepers to activate the Citadel, huh? Why not activate the Citadel directly? Why not make the signal go to a hidden receiver that is linked directly to the portal openning switch. Like, you know in 20th century TV sets' remote controls?

Answer: Vigil was lying. The Keepers were never supposed to activate anything.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Ilos=place hidden from the Reapers and the place where the last surviving Protheans were. It had the key to how the Protheans stopped the cycle. The Protheans left clues after the Reapers had left to find Vigil and didn't know the Mu relay would get lost.
[/quote]
With the Reapers gone, there was no point in hiding the "key how to stop the cycle" there. Especially when "he key to stop the cycle" was on the Citadel already... Wait.. how'd it get back to Ilos without the "12 scientists" going back there?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
That wouldn't stop him, but he'd be 2000 years too late, as others would have studied it thouroughly by that time. BTW, something tells me that on the Citadel there wouldn't have been any problems with power supply for just one extra VI...
[/quote]
Yes and all Vigil's plans would have gone to waste because Saren would have found out about it. Vigils citadel override wouldn't work if Saren had any knowledge about it's existence. 
But again, as we know the Keepers probably wouldn't have left a working VI alone for 50000 years. 
[/quote]
Once more, repeat after me: Saren with his evil intentions would have been 2000 years late.

If the "12 scientists" wanted it, the Keepers would have leaft the VI alone, just as they leave the "statue" alone.




[quote]Black Raptor wrote...



Keepers clean the Citadel. Any notes wouldn't have survived.[/quote]
Point defeated on two counts:

1. According to Vigil's tale, the "12 scientists" were able to alter the Keepers in any way they liked.
2. The Keepers do not touch the "statue", which is a hard fact.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

 
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
In other words, they couldn't tell if it was going to work any better than staying awake and actively maintaing their civilization, if on one planet only.
[/quote] Exactly, but they were willing to take the risk. 
[/quote] Why weren't they willing to take the other risk? Of staying active? Since they had no way to tell which risk was more risky?

Once again: they isolated the planet (but Vigil somehow managed to observe the reaping process, hmmm...), and that was their best bet. If the Reapers came to the system, there was no way they could miss the facility on Ilos. With such a thing as the Conduit (and thousands of active life support pods), it had to give them a hell of a spike of anomalous readings during the planet scanning minigame, know what I'm talking?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

The Protheans wanted to make sure they weren't found. Even if the Reapers weren't looking for them in particular, they were looking for signs of Protheans. 
Faced with an enemy who'd settle for nothing less that your utter annihilation and who you cannot fight, making sure you are well hidden is not childish.
[/quote]
With the Reapers, going underground is not "well hidden". There was no f*cking point to it.

OK, that's it. I have only so much patience when talking to a wall so dense as yourself. One more thing though:

Occam's Razor is applicable only to working hypotheses. Vigil's tale is not working on so many counts, it's ridiculous.

[P38 ace]

once aigian you didn't explore in the game, the Keepers Did try to move the mini Mass relay but they couldn't cause its in the middle of the water and is too large to move

and once agian the scientist DID NOT change the keepers

They changed the Citidel codes that the Reapers sent to it

IE, the reapers send the code to the Citadel, Citadel does not send the Code to the keepers

in other words they turned off the wireless resiver on the computer

Virgle's story is the most complete and flawless one i have hear

yours is full of contriditions that the rest of the ME1&2 story clearly prove incorrect

[midasear]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
According to Vigil's tale, the "12 scientists" were able to alter the Keepers in any way they liked.

This entire line of argument has been bugging me since first reading it.  And last night, while completeing a playthru of ME1, I confirmed why.

Vigil does not claim the research team altered the Keepers.  He claims that they altered the signal emitted by the Citadel, the one that orders the Keepers to make preparations to open the Mass Relay to "Dark Space".  He also claims that over millions of years, the Keepers had slowly evolved  so that they only obeyed signals coming from the Citadel, and not from the Reapers themselves.   Presumably the research team used a software hack developed on Illos to penatrate Citadel Control...a copy of which Vigil provides to our intrepid hero.

A better question is why do the Reapers rely on the Keepers to reconfigure the Citadel instead of installing and signaling a mechanical or AI controlled system?  But is Vigil's explanation really unreasonable?  The Citadel needs to be useful for it to function as a trap for the starfaring civilizations the Reapers want to attract.  And the Keepers make it useful.  By acting for centuries as an extremely useful, relatively docile, but highly eccentric interface to the inexplicable technologies on the Citadel, the Keeper's activities eventually fall beneath notice, let alone suspicion, to the Citadel's inhabitants.

Maybe the Reapers could leave a sophisticated VI behind to serve the same purpose.  But the VI's failure to explain what happened to the previous inhabitants is going to leave it under a cloud of suspicion that will never really go away.  Those who discover the Citadel are either going to view the eccentric VI as broken, and in need of upgrade and repair, which will lead to all sorts of questions about how does this doo-hickey interfacs with this stuff over here that the Reapers don't want thier future victims asking.  Or the VI is going to be suspected (quite correctly) of complicity in the former inhabitants dissappearance, which will lead to questions the Reapers would view as even more undesirable.

The Keeper race makes for  a better stooge.

Frankly, I think the start of true efforts by the target civilization to understand the Keepers is what triggers the Reaper invasion at the start of each Cycle.  Chorban and Jahleed's discovery of a medical scanner that worked on the Keepers, and their clumsy efforts to compile data on the Keepers, did not go unnoticed.  It is what convinced Sovereign it was necessary to act NOW.

Chorban is thus the most consequential individual in Citadel space.  All the death and destruction is on his head.