This is a thought I just had regarding how the VS was treated by the writers in ME2. Most people were extremely upset about the hostile reaction they recieved at the end of the Horizon mission, and the relative oddity that the VS was left while Lilith, who was just meters away, was taken. IMO, the writers made a mistake in leaving the VS on Horizon. The VS should have been taken onto the collector ship and rescued on a latter mission, either the Collector Ship or the Collector base.
If the VS was in the possession of the Collectors, it would have provided a much needed sense of urgency in your overall mission to take down the Collectors because Shepard actually has a personal connection that is on the line. Additionally, the setting of freeing the VS from one of the collector pods would allow for more empathy for the emotional confusion that the VS displayed on Horizon.
As it is, you defeat the Preatorian, and the VS suddenly walks up, right as rain, and starts chewing you out. This resulted in a lot of bitterness towards the VS by the audience without adequately diplaying traumatic circumstance of the reunion that would invoke forgiveness from the audience. The E-mail you recieve afterwards is a weak consolation for those of us who appreciate the character of the VS.
Not a plot hole or anything like that, just my perception of a mistake in the writing.
The Vermire Survivour Mistake
Débuté par
SandTrout
, juil. 23 2011 09:52
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#3
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 10:16
BentOrgy
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Spelling aside, you are absolutely right. Bioware dropped the ball... Only to drop it again and again like a freaking basketball through out Mass Effect 2's "Story." Horizon being only one of the many things that set off us fans who take a dim view of illogical, shallow, or just plain lazy writing.
Mass Effect was/is a RPG, where story and character reign supreme. Or that's how its SUPPOSED to be. After Comic-Con on the Pulse, my fears are becoming substantially bigger regarding ME3.
"Its a great place for people to jump in!" Really, at the END? Like ME1 and 2 mean nothing? They're essentially saying its cool to not care about the story, especially when Genesis came to the 360. "Here, you don't have to play the first one, this crap comic that hardly skims the surface should suffice."
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
Mass Effect was/is a RPG, where story and character reign supreme. Or that's how its SUPPOSED to be. After Comic-Con on the Pulse, my fears are becoming substantially bigger regarding ME3.
"Its a great place for people to jump in!" Really, at the END? Like ME1 and 2 mean nothing? They're essentially saying its cool to not care about the story, especially when Genesis came to the 360. "Here, you don't have to play the first one, this crap comic that hardly skims the surface should suffice."
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
Modifié par BentOrgy, 23 juillet 2011 - 10:20 .
#4
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 03:31
Raven4030
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BentOrgy wrote...
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
I would argue that, although the core missions feel like 'meanwhile while exploring the galaxy Shepard goes and shoots some bug things', alot more depth, culture, and character is developed over the course of the game than in ME1. One of the first things I noticed with ME2 was how it felt more alive walking around hub worlds than in ME1 which felt more like everybody existed for your benefit.
Yes, there were some things they did wrong, but there were so many things they did right as well which overshadowed the bad and made for an overall better experience.
However, if you are utterly convinced they are selling out story, I would say it is largely because they're spending over 40 million dollars on a product in an industry that pats itself on the back for breaking the 1 million units sold barrier.
#5
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 04:08
BentOrgy
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Raven4030 wrote...
BentOrgy wrote...
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
I would argue that, although the core missions feel like 'meanwhile while exploring the galaxy Shepard goes and shoots some bug things', alot more depth, culture, and character is developed over the course of the game than in ME1. One of the first things I noticed with ME2 was how it felt more alive walking around hub worlds than in ME1 which felt more like everybody existed for your benefit.
Yes, there were some things they did wrong, but there were so many things they did right as well which overshadowed the bad and made for an overall better experience.
However, if you are utterly convinced they are selling out story, I would say it is largely because they're spending over 40 million dollars on a product in an industry that pats itself on the back for breaking the 1 million units sold barrier.
ME2 was a staggeringly better built game than ME1, its dialogue was deeper, more exploratory, and most cutscenes were better directed, its side missions were better constructed, its cast was larger and offered more variation and color, and its gameplay was VASTLY superior than the first's.
Its narrative however, blows, and that was my problem; this is a series that claims its characters, story and emotional investment toward the player are the all-consuming reasons to play. And yet they are disregarding crucial story elements, (Ferros and so the Cipher, Ilos and so the Conduit.) ramrodding us into situations we cannot adequately or realistically resolve (Cerberus, Horizon, and that eyesore Arrival.) and allowing people to play second game without any true respect toward the first. All of that lore, explaination, and context dies instantly because of it.
And as for the state of the industry, there are plenty of AAA titles out there that seem to preserve the integrity of the series just fine. One for a blinding example, one that spans well over twenty years;
Metal Gear. <3
Modifié par BentOrgy, 23 juillet 2011 - 04:10 .
#6
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 04:20
gogman25
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BentOrgy wrote...
Raven4030 wrote...
BentOrgy wrote...
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
I would argue that, although the core missions feel like 'meanwhile while exploring the galaxy Shepard goes and shoots some bug things', alot more depth, culture, and character is developed over the course of the game than in ME1. One of the first things I noticed with ME2 was how it felt more alive walking around hub worlds than in ME1 which felt more like everybody existed for your benefit.
Yes, there were some things they did wrong, but there were so many things they did right as well which overshadowed the bad and made for an overall better experience.
However, if you are utterly convinced they are selling out story, I would say it is largely because they're spending over 40 million dollars on a product in an industry that pats itself on the back for breaking the 1 million units sold barrier.
ME2 was a staggeringly better built game than ME1, its dialogue was deeper, more exploratory, and most cutscenes were better directed, its side missions were better constructed, its cast was larger and offered more variation and color, and its gameplay was VASTLY superior than the first's.
Its narrative however, blows, and that was my problem; this is a series that claims its characters, story and emotional investment toward the player are the all-consuming reasons to play. And yet they are disregarding crucial story elements, (Ferros and so the Cipher, Ilos and so the Conduit.) ramrodding us into situations we cannot adequately or realistically resolve (Cerberus, Horizon, and that eyesore Arrival.) and allowing people to play second game without any true respect toward the first. All of that lore, explaination, and context dies instantly because of it.
And as for the state of the industry, there are plenty of AAA titles out there that seem to preserve the integrity of the series just fine. One for a blinding example, one that spans well over twenty years;
Metal Gear. <3
Im going to have to disagree with your first point; the dialogue was not deeper, where the hell did you get more exploratory from, and I consider the gameplay equal to the first Mass Effect 1, otherwise I agree.
#7
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 05:23
BentOrgy
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I suppose deeper is a matter of perception, but considering there were far more topics of conversation to explore in ME2, due in no small part to how much bigger it was, I think my perception isn't too much of a stretch. Sure, Tali was a walking/Talking codex page in ME1, but we had Tuchanka, where we observed actual Krogan culture amd extrapolation on the genophage, plus twelve squadmates worth of backstory and miscellaneous dialogue in ME2.
That's just mentioning a few cases. Cases which nicely point out why it was more "Exploratory" as well. Can't see how you could realistically dispute that either, but whatever.
And please, combat alone was an incredible boost in ME2. Mass Effect 1 combat was obtuse, bland and static in comparison. Again, I can't see how you can logically say that ME1 was par or superior.
That's just mentioning a few cases. Cases which nicely point out why it was more "Exploratory" as well. Can't see how you could realistically dispute that either, but whatever.
And please, combat alone was an incredible boost in ME2. Mass Effect 1 combat was obtuse, bland and static in comparison. Again, I can't see how you can logically say that ME1 was par or superior.
#8
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 06:32
trobbins777
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BentOrgy wrote...
Raven4030 wrote...
BentOrgy wrote...
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
I would argue that, although the core missions feel like 'meanwhile while exploring the galaxy Shepard goes and shoots some bug things', alot more depth, culture, and character is developed over the course of the game than in ME1. One of the first things I noticed with ME2 was how it felt more alive walking around hub worlds than in ME1 which felt more like everybody existed for your benefit.
Yes, there were some things they did wrong, but there were so many things they did right as well which overshadowed the bad and made for an overall better experience.
However, if you are utterly convinced they are selling out story, I would say it is largely because they're spending over 40 million dollars on a product in an industry that pats itself on the back for breaking the 1 million units sold barrier.
ME2 was a staggeringly better built game than ME1, its dialogue was deeper, more exploratory, and most cutscenes were better directed, its side missions were better constructed, its cast was larger and offered more variation and color, and its gameplay was VASTLY superior than the first's.
Its narrative however, blows, and that was my problem; this is a series that claims its characters, story and emotional investment toward the player are the all-consuming reasons to play. And yet they are disregarding crucial story elements, (Ferros and so the Cipher, Ilos and so the Conduit.) ramrodding us into situations we cannot adequately or realistically resolve (Cerberus, Horizon, and that eyesore Arrival.) and allowing people to play second game without any true respect toward the first. All of that lore, explaination, and context dies instantly because of it.
And as for the state of the industry, there are plenty of AAA titles out there that seem to preserve the integrity of the series just fine. One for a blinding example, one that spans well over twenty years;
Metal Gear. <3
MGS2 really dropped the ball with me. Especially when i was misled that Snake would be the primary protagonist, then giving us Raiden (while his performance wasn't necessarily bad). He couldn't possibly measure up to snake.
Anyway back on topic, I feel the VS's reaction on Horizon was just a plot by Bioware to get people to cheat on their LI. Personally it was the biggest kick in the groin i've ever metaphorically recieved. After all that emphasis on the danger the VS was in Bioware decides to resolve the scene by, and i'll quote the scene itself to emphasize my point.
Ash: "Your in the prescense of a god Delan, back from the dea-"
Bioware: :ph34r:"Assuming Direct Control.":ph34r:
Ash: "Traitor!!!" *Kicks shep in the groin*
Bioware: :devil:"I know this hurts you."
#9
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 06:52
BentOrgy
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trobbins777 wrote...
BentOrgy wrote...
Raven4030 wrote...
BentOrgy wrote...
They created and galaxy full of story, culture, character, and depth, why the hell are they trying so hard to take a **** on it now?
I would argue that, although the core missions feel like 'meanwhile while exploring the galaxy Shepard goes and shoots some bug things', alot more depth, culture, and character is developed over the course of the game than in ME1. One of the first things I noticed with ME2 was how it felt more alive walking around hub worlds than in ME1 which felt more like everybody existed for your benefit.
Yes, there were some things they did wrong, but there were so many things they did right as well which overshadowed the bad and made for an overall better experience.
However, if you are utterly convinced they are selling out story, I would say it is largely because they're spending over 40 million dollars on a product in an industry that pats itself on the back for breaking the 1 million units sold barrier.
ME2 was a staggeringly better built game than ME1, its dialogue was deeper, more exploratory, and most cutscenes were better directed, its side missions were better constructed, its cast was larger and offered more variation and color, and its gameplay was VASTLY superior than the first's.
Its narrative however, blows, and that was my problem; this is a series that claims its characters, story and emotional investment toward the player are the all-consuming reasons to play. And yet they are disregarding crucial story elements, (Ferros and so the Cipher, Ilos and so the Conduit.) ramrodding us into situations we cannot adequately or realistically resolve (Cerberus, Horizon, and that eyesore Arrival.) and allowing people to play second game without any true respect toward the first. All of that lore, explaination, and context dies instantly because of it.
And as for the state of the industry, there are plenty of AAA titles out there that seem to preserve the integrity of the series just fine. One for a blinding example, one that spans well over twenty years;
Metal Gear. <3
MGS2 really dropped the ball with me. Especially when i was misled that Snake would be the primary protagonist, then giving us Raiden (while his performance wasn't necessarily bad). He couldn't possibly measure up to snake.
Anyway back on topic, I feel the VS's reaction on Horizon was just a plot by Bioware to get people to cheat on their LI. Personally it was the biggest kick in the groin i've ever metaphorically recieved. After all that emphasis on the danger the VS was in Bioware decides to resolve the scene by, and i'll quote the scene itself to emphasize my point.
Ash: "Your in the prescense of a god Delan, back from the dea-"
Bioware: :ph34r:"Assuming Direct Control.":ph34r:
Ash: "Traitor!!!" *Kicks shep in the groin*
Bioware: :devil:"I know this hurts you."
I think that MGS2's story was simply a matter of too much too fast; Gurlukovich, Raiden's connection to Solidus, The Reconstructing of the Shadow Moses Incident, Les Enfant Terribles purpose, the whole G.W scenario, trying to figure out who the hell Ocelot was playing for, etc. Otherwise I thought it was well formed.
Although my favourite hands down was Snake Eater, seeing how it all came together from the very beginning was amazing. That, and the Boss's story made me cry. Yeah, I said. Cried. Especially when Snake played EVA's recording at the end. Totally killed me, and I loved every minute of it.
Mass Effect could really learn something from Kojima-san and crew.
Buuuut, topic, yeah, groin kicking was had, and I hope Bioware felt it as much as we have.
#10
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 08:34
eternalnightmare13
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I agree with you about the VS being taken by the Collectors. It would've given Shepard a much more personal motivation for going after the Collectors. The whole Reaper/Collector thing is pretty broad and abstract but your friend/lover being abducted by them would have made it a more emotional experience.
I never got an email from the VS whom I didn't romance which is also lame and once again shows that the writers drop the ball when it comes to frienships in ME2.
As it stand right now I want to kick Kaidan in the nuts, hard and shove him out the airlock in ME3. That won't happen, or anything close to it cause BW writers are wusses.
I never got an email from the VS whom I didn't romance which is also lame and once again shows that the writers drop the ball when it comes to frienships in ME2.
As it stand right now I want to kick Kaidan in the nuts, hard and shove him out the airlock in ME3. That won't happen, or anything close to it cause BW writers are wusses.
SandTrout wrote...
This is a thought I just had regarding how the VS was treated by the writers in ME2. Most people were extremely upset about the hostile reaction they recieved at the end of the Horizon mission, and the relative oddity that the VS was left while Lilith, who was just meters away, was taken. IMO, the writers made a mistake in leaving the VS on Horizon. The VS should have been taken onto the collector ship and rescued on a latter mission, either the Collector Ship or the Collector base.
If the VS was in the possession of the Collectors, it would have provided a much needed sense of urgency in your overall mission to take down the Collectors because Shepard actually has a personal connection that is on the line. Additionally, the setting of freeing the VS from one of the collector pods would allow for more empathy for the emotional confusion that the VS displayed on Horizon.
As it is, you defeat the Preatorian, and the VS suddenly walks up, right as rain, and starts chewing you out. This resulted in a lot of bitterness towards the VS by the audience without adequately diplaying traumatic circumstance of the reunion that would invoke forgiveness from the audience. The E-mail you recieve afterwards is a weak consolation for those of us who appreciate the character of the VS.
Not a plot hole or anything like that, just my perception of a mistake in the writing.
#11
Posté 25 juillet 2011 - 09:59
Jedi Master of Orion
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I have to say going into Horizon for the first time, I was actually expecting them to be captured and then Shepard had to go save them at the end of the game.
Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juillet 2011 - 10:01 .
#12
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 08:53
Sajuro
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I know this may not count for much, but I felt a closer connection to the crew of ME2 then the Virmire survivor, mainly because Kaiden was bland in me1 and Ashley was...... Ashley, the fact that my crew was abducted and that I was able to see it from Joker's point of view gave me more of an incentive to get to the collector's base as soon as humanly possible to save them, since they are my shep's family and no one ****s with his family.
#13
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 09:00
BentOrgy
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Sajuro wrote...
I know this may not count for much, but I felt a closer connection to the crew of ME2 then the Virmire survivor, mainly because Kaiden was bland in me1 and Ashley was...... Ashley, the fact that my crew was abducted and that I was able to see it from Joker's point of view gave me more of an incentive to get to the collector's base as soon as humanly possible to save them, since they are my shep's family and no one ****s with his family.
Here here.
(Although Kaidan has always been my broski. More than that wannabe Jacob.)
#14
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 09:26
Sajuro
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@bentorgy: Garrus has always been my bro
#15
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 07:54
toolfan9284
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Great points so far. Ideally we as players have the viewpoint of seeing each game as a separate entity but when I started listening to what Casey was telling us about how this was the series was planned out start to finish before ME1 was available to us really made me think twice about questioning some of the story choices they've made so far. I'm sure there has been some tweaking with dialogue but the main plot lines were probably already decided upon. There was no way for them to anticipate our reaction to it.
Our fears and concerns for ME3 are understandable given how much the community has become involved and grown to love our characters. I have faith that BW will make some attempt to satisfy those of us who are veterans while attracting new folks to the universe.
Would I have loved the opportunity to contact the VS first chance I got after being rebuilt? Hell yes! Would I have relished the ability to either explain or obtain some empathy from the VS on Horizon? You bet!
Sadly it's a plot choice by the writer's and production team, although the email you receive if you romanced one of them was sappy and after reading it the first time I was pretty devastated and that showed in my play-through choices after Horizon.
If nothing else it made us feel for Shep. That said I better get some dialogue with the VS before the reapers invade that affirm our relationship as friends/LI or I will really be disappointed and glad I cheated on them most of the time.
Our fears and concerns for ME3 are understandable given how much the community has become involved and grown to love our characters. I have faith that BW will make some attempt to satisfy those of us who are veterans while attracting new folks to the universe.
Would I have loved the opportunity to contact the VS first chance I got after being rebuilt? Hell yes! Would I have relished the ability to either explain or obtain some empathy from the VS on Horizon? You bet!
Sadly it's a plot choice by the writer's and production team, although the email you receive if you romanced one of them was sappy and after reading it the first time I was pretty devastated and that showed in my play-through choices after Horizon.
If nothing else it made us feel for Shep. That said I better get some dialogue with the VS before the reapers invade that affirm our relationship as friends/LI or I will really be disappointed and glad I cheated on them most of the time.
