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[glitter_guld]

In fact, Mordin's suggestion that the Collectors are modified Protheans may be incorrect. Indeed, it is based on the EDI data that both of them have specific quad-strand DNA. This is not enough. For example, humans and cows share double-stranded DNA, which is even 80% identical. Humans and flies share 60% of DNA identity. Collectors might be just one of the species living on a Prothean world, for example. What strikes me is that the Collectors are an insect looking race, which is totally different from how prothean statues look. One can, of course, assume that the Reapers had completely rewritten prothean DNA and created a new race, but I don't see a reason why to give God-like features to a race of machines, however old they may be. Indoctrinating is one thing, but creating life is different.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 23 juillet 2011 - 06:06 .

[BentOrgy]

I assumed that they had been enhanced for combat, seeing as most of them were soldiers. All those gangly limbs and tentacles were probably deemed unnecessary. Hard bodied, streamlined for efficiency and nothing else.

And God Machines are hardly new, but really? Does it matter? They didn't have to do, or incorporate, a lot of things into the story, but they did it anyway. The Reapers possessing God-like power is no different than the fact that most Drell have Kepral's Syndrome. Its just in their story.

I personally find "Created Gods" to be fascinating, obtaining that power through innovation and knowledge rather than some magical whatever always makes me smile.

[didymos1120]

glitter_guld wrote...

In fact, Mordin's suggestion that the Collectors are modified Protheans may be incorrect. Indeed, it is based on the EDI data that both of them have specific quad-strand DNA. This is not enough.

Good thing that's not all it's based on then, isn't it?

EDI: "I have already matched two thousand alleles to recorded fragments. This Collector likely descends from a Prothean colony in the Styx Theta cluster."

[Bogsnot1]

We share approximately 95% of our DNA with dogs, and we look nothing like them. Its amaznig what a slight tinkering to the genetic structure can do.

[glitter_guld]

didymos1120 wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

In fact, Mordin's suggestion that the Collectors are modified Protheans may be incorrect. Indeed, it is based on the EDI data that both of them have specific quad-strand DNA. This is not enough.

Good thing that's not all it's based on then, isn't it?

EDI: "I have already matched two thousand alleles to recorded fragments. This Collector likely descends from a Prothean colony in the Styx Theta cluster."

I think, we can safely discard this sentence completely. Not nearly enough to make any conclusion. For example, a human genome is about 25000 genes, and 1-3 alleles per gene, that is 50000-75000 alleles. 2000 alleles can match a human to a sponge. But it is probably enough to say that the sponge was from the Styx cluster.

If the Collectors are indeed descendants from the Protheans made by the Reapers, then the Reapers are truly Gods, sort of, because they are able to create Purely Organic life (I assume Collectors are organics) in addition to organic machines. Note, that all those husks and even Saren that we saw before were "enhanced" to incorporate some machine-type of stuff, which is diffetent.

[glitter_guld]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

We share approximately 95% of our DNA with dogs, and we look nothing like them. Its amaznig what a slight tinkering to the genetic structure can do.

And the similarity between humans and some monkeys are 98-99%. However, it does not mean that we can create a human from a monkey. We will have to predict the missing 2% (which is already impossible), and basically to construct a human from scratch from the predicted DNA. That is why it looks highly suspicious tha the Reapers "rebuilt" the Protheans to a very different species.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:42 .

[Bogsnot1]

No, we cannot create a human from a monkey, but with the right tinkering, we can make a human that looks like a monkey, and thats just with out primative knowledge and 50 years experience of tampering with DNA. Extrapolate that knowledge millions of years for the theoretical, and tens of thousands for the practical, and there would be barely any barriers preventing them from turning squidfaces into bipedal bugs.

[glitter_guld]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
...we can make a human that looks like a monkey, ...

Aside from science fiction, I don't know really if it is possible. Incorporating a gene responsible for monkey phenotype will require all additional mashinery (all other proteins), which will process it to be also included. Those additional proteins are also coded by genes and so on and so forth. In other words it is either human, who looks like human, or monkey, which looks like monkey. Otherwise, wecould breed unlimited amount of species or inter-species on this Earth.

PS. What I am saying is that there is no doubt that the Reapers have created the Collectors one way or another, we just can't be sure how much they are the Protheans.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 23 juillet 2011 - 08:16 .

[Sebby]

The Collectors are bio-engineered cybernetic clones of the Protheans, so of course they wouldn't look the same. Mordin goes into more detail about it after the Collector ship mission iirc.

[Bogsnot1]

glitter_guld wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
...we can make a human that looks like a monkey, ...

Aside from science fiction, I don't know really if it is possible. Incorporating a gene responsible for monkey phenotype will require all additional mashinery (all other proteins), which will process it to be also included. Those additional proteins are also coded by genes and so on and so forth. In other words it is either human, who looks like human, or monkey, which looks like monkey. Otherwise, wecould breed unlimited amount of species or inter-species on this Earth.

PS. What I am saying is that there is no doubt that the Reapers have created the Collectors one way or another, we just can't be sure how much they are the Protheans.

What part of looks like did you get confused with become?

No science fiction, or even science involved. Here are 10 monkey lookalikes that happened all due to genetic quirkiness.
http://www.oddee.com/item_97812.aspx

[BentOrgy]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They should have been related to the keepers, not the Protheans.

Why? Because they were made presumably the same way? I think it makes more sense, both from a logical, and from a story perspective for it to be the Protheans; the Reapers, for whatever reason, failed in making a Prothean Reaper, but the Protheans presented, one way or another, interesting traits that the Reapers could not/would not ignore. For that reason, they couldn't brirng themselves to just discard them altogether.

Maybe the keepers were just a driveby incident where the Reapers needed slaves that could keep the Citadel in one piece, but after seeing how effective they were, decided to keep that option open for others species they would find useful down the road.

Or we can just scream "Plothole," like so many other people do.

[glitter_guld]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

....
What part of looks like did you get confused with become?

No science fiction, or even science involved. Here are 10 monkey lookalikes that happened all due to genetic quirkiness.
http://www.oddee.com/item_97812.aspx

I am not confused here. It is quite clear. We do not have enough data to believe Mordin and EDI. And I will not be surprised if in Mass Effect 3 we will meet Real Collectors or real Protheans, similar to how we've met real Geth.

There are no humans that look like a dog, cow or monkey, or that have features of those in their genes. Those humans in the pictures are completely within human physiology. They have nothing new in their genes, but only have broken metabolism, i.e. proteins that govern hair growth do simply malfunction.

The thing that the Reapers did with the Collectors is totally different, if the Collectors are the Protheans that is. They didn't simply shorten the tentacles or the fingers. They created seemingly new species with the completely new phenotype, new legs, new body, new head, new eyes and possibly new physiology.

I do not argue that the Reapers couldn't do it, even though it sounds a bit too much even for the Reapers. ME2 is science fiction, after all. I argue that there is a Very high possibility that those Collectors are not Protheans at all. There is no evidence.

[BentOrgy]

glitter_guld wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

....
What part of looks like did you get confused with become?

No science fiction, or even science involved. Here are 10 monkey lookalikes that happened all due to genetic quirkiness.
http://www.oddee.com/item_97812.aspx

I am not confused here. It is quite clear. We do not have enough data to believe Mordin and EDI. And I will not be surprised if in Mass Effect 3 we will meet Real Collectors or real Protheans, similar to how we've met real Geth.

There are no humans that look like a dog, cow or monkey, or that have features of those in their genes. Those humans in the pictures are completely within human physiology. They have nothing new in their genes, but only have broken metabolism, i.e. proteins that govern hair growth do simply malfunction.

The thing that the Reapers did with the Collectors is totally different, if the Collectors are the Protheans that is. They didn't simply shorten the tentacles or the fingers. They created seemingly new species with the completely new phenotype, new legs, new body, new head, new eyes and possibly new physiology.

I do not argue that the Reapers couldn't do it, even though it sounds a bit too much even for the Reapers. ME2 is science fiction, after all. I argue that there is a Very high possibility that those Collectors are not Protheans at all. There is no evidence.

.... Are we really trying to say that there was once a Collector race now? Honestly?

Not only does that directly contradict what has been blatantly stated in game (And while we're on that subject, EDI specificly states that Reapers are part machine, and part organic, are you going to say she's wrong there too?) it would open up a entirely new story arc in Mass Effect, on WAY to big and unnecessary being this late in the game. Why the hell would Bioware do such a thing?

They wouldn't, Collectors are repurposed Protheans, end of story.

And as far as it being "Too much," for the Reapers to handle, who do you think created the keepers? Seriously, its very simple, and very feasible.

[glitter_guld]

BentOrgy wrote...

... (And while we're on that subject, EDI specificly states that Reapers are part machine, and part organic, are you going to say she's wrong there too?)...

Errr... Where did I say anything about the Reapers??? What were you smoking?

As to the blatant statement in-game that there was no a collector race before, can you direct me to it, because I've
got Codex:Aliens:Non-Council Races:Collectors open right now and curious. (And also wiki)

Now, there are no collector-looking Reapers or keeper-looking Reapers, also no assari-, krogan- or hanar-looking Reapers either. It means that either Reapers did try to construct a baby-reaper out of collectors and failed or they simply enslaved a collector race during one of the Galaxy purges and repurposed them for Reaper-harvesting purposes, similar how the Keepers were repurposed for the Mass Relay/Citadel building purposes.

By the way EDI never said the the Collectors were Protheans. She just stated the facts about DNA and allele similarity. EDI is clean. It was Shepard (I think), who started making uneducated assumptions.

[Bogsnot1]

glitter_guld wrote...
Now, there are no collector-looking Reapers or keeper-looking Reapers, also no assari-, krogan- or hanar-looking Reapers either. It means that either Reapers did try to construct a baby-reaper out of collectors and failed or they simply enslaved a collector race during one of the Galaxy purges and repurposed them for Reaper-harvesting purposes, similar how the Keepers were repurposed for the Mass Relay/Citadel building purposes.

Where is your proof that they failed to make a Collector/Prothean Reaper? Because none of the REapers look like it? Extrapolate that logic, and it means every race that has been capable of understanding Mass Effect technology in the past, have been squids.

[BentOrgy]

glitter_guld wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

... (And while we're on that subject, EDI specificly states that Reapers are part machine, and part organic, are you going to say she's wrong there too?)...

Errr... Where did I say anything about the Reapers??? What were you smoking?

As to the blatant statement in-game that there was no a collector race before, can you direct me to it, because I've
got Codex:Aliens:Non-Council Races:Collectors open right now and curious. (And also wiki)

Now, there are no collector-looking Reapers or keeper-looking Reapers, also no assari-, krogan- or hanar-looking Reapers either. It means that either Reapers did try to construct a baby-reaper out of collectors and failed or they simply enslaved a collector race during one of the Galaxy purges and repurposed them for Reaper-harvesting purposes, similar how the Keepers were repurposed for the Mass Relay/Citadel building purposes.

By the way EDI never said the the Collectors were Protheans. She just stated the facts about DNA and allele similarity. EDI is clean. It was Shepard (I think), who started making uneducated assumptions.

What I smoke is my business, and has no bearing on what I said. You say that you can't take what Mordin and EDI declared about the Collectors as proof, so I gave another instance where EDI said something similar, and asked whether or not you thought that was valid, not that hard to wrap your head around man.

I also never once stated whether there was or wasn't, I'm just saying it would make no sense to say its a viable conclusion when the GAME CREATORS have made it clear IN GAME that the Collectors already have an origin; the Protheans. Disregard it if you must, but its very clear.

Also very clear, is that even if there were Collector or Keeper reapers, you'd certainly never know by looking at them. Why? Because its been officially stated that all Reapers bear a near identical exterior shell, and that their Cores are what look different.

And please, that scene on the Collector Ship makes PAINFULLY obvious to any and all who actually listened, that the Protheans were repurposed. If Shep was wrong, I damn sure SOMEONE would have clarified, Either Mordin or EDI. You know, the two experts onboard.

It seems to me that you're simply trying to desperately prove soemthing that cannot be proven, simply because;

You're wrong.

[Rip The Reaper]

well they are in the future, so I just like to think EDI knows what she is talking about. that far in the furture who's to say there isn't some kind of way to know.

[didymos1120]

glitter_guld wrote...

By the way EDI never said the the Collectors were Protheans.

Yes she did:

A quad-strand genetic structure, identical to traces collected from ancient ruins. Only one race is known to have this structure: the Protheans.

and:

These are no longer Protheans, Shepard. Their genes show distinct signs of extensive genetic rewrite.

and yet again:

I have already matched two thousand alleles to recorded fragments. This Collector likely descends from a Prothean colony in the Styx Theta cluster.

Regardless of the fact that she never explicitly said the exact words "They are modified Protheans", she's quite clearly convinced that they are. And that means she thinks the data backs that conclusion up. Oh, and BTW...a two-thousand allele match?  That's a whole hell of a lot compared to current forms of DNA testing. 

ETA:  Oh, and note that she wasn't even done matching yet.  That's just how far she'd gotten at that point.

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:59 .

[CroGamer002]

Are we sure those are those statues on Ilos are Protheans?

[didymos1120]

Oh, yeah, I forgot. There's an N7 assignment that further confirms the "Collectors are Protheans" thing:

N7: Archeological Dig Site

Watch it here, if you wish:

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...

Are we sure those are those statues on Ilos are Protheans?

Yes, because they resemble what we see in the visions in ME1.

[Bogsnot1]

Mesina2 wrote...

Are we sure those are those statues on Ilos are Protheans?

If not,the Protheans either worshipped:
a) Dr Zoidberg
Mind Flayers.
c) The Ood.

Honestly, I dont know which would be scarier.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:53 .

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Are we sure those are those statues on Ilos are Protheans?

Yes, because they resemble what we see in the visions in ME1.

Bah, they look too human.

[Rip The Reaper]

didymos1120 wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

By the way EDI never said the the Collectors were Protheans.

Yes she did:

A quad-strand genetic structure, identical to traces collected from ancient ruins. Only one race is known to have this structure: the Protheans.

and:

These are no longer Protheans, Shepard. Their genes show distinct signs of extensive genetic rewrite.

and yet again:

I have already matched two thousand alleles to recorded fragments. This Collector likely descends from a Prothean colony in the Styx Theta cluster.

Regardless of the fact that she never explicitly said the exact words "They are modified Protheans", she's quite clearly convinced that they are. And that means she thinks the data backs that conclusion up. Oh, and BTW...a two-thousand allele match?  That's a whole hell of a lot compared to current forms of DNA testing. 

ETA:  Oh, and note that she wasn't even done matching yet.  That's just how far she'd gotten at that point.

Wait. Doesn't EDI say "The collectors are just Protheans" when you first see the Human-Reaper on the suicide mission when you select the dialog that says somthing like "why would the collectors work with the reapers"??

I thought she did