863 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...


We've got enough troll here as it is.

I can see that.

Tell us about the variables again Zulu!!!!
Or about how Cerberus is certainly not an enemy!

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

silentfall wrote...

I'd like to add that, since 99% of humanity is on Earth, it stands to reason that 99% of the Alliance troops and leaders also hail from Earth. Human discipline ends at a certain point, and I'm fairly certain that watching your home planet and basically everyone you ever knew that isn't serving with you burn and die is well past that point. Even if the Alliance did order the troops to hold position, we'd be seeing a fairly large mutiny and a huge drop in morale. After all, what the hell are the soldiers fighting for if everything they have is already lost?

It might surprise you, but on average the discipline would actually go up.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

silentfall wrote...

I'd like to add that, since 99% of humanity is on Earth, it stands to reason that 99% of the Alliance troops and leaders also hail from Earth. Human discipline ends at a certain point, and I'm fairly certain that watching your home planet and basically everyone you ever knew that isn't serving with you burn and die is well past that point. Even if the Alliance did order the troops to hold position, we'd be seeing a fairly large mutiny and a huge drop in morale. After all, what the hell are the soldiers fighting for if everything they have is already lost?

It might surprise you, but on average the discipline would actually go up.

Yes because you know this for certain.

[Reciever80]

marshalleck wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

All the nation states are "affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance", or so says the codex.

That's actually a rather strange part of the codex, that entry Displayes like the Alliance is some kind of UN. yet other entries i seem to hammer upon that Alliance is an independant Nation, and it's very unlikley that ll the goverments will resort to an indepedant entity for protection from attacks outer space,

"The Systems Alliance is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead."

Which part of that is unclear to you? The Systems Alliance is humanity. They're not just going to sit back and watch Earth burn.

/end thread

<_<

[Aumata]

Alliance loses Earth, Alliance ends up like the qurians. Major lost of power, money, resources. The alliance was created because no single nation could afford to venture out in the galaxy with out going bankrupt. Why you ask that, there is a codex for this type of info. Earth gone, Alliance is finish pretty much simple.

[Ajaxto]

Well, people are dying in mass numbers so quick and fast. I believe at this time, nobody would give a crap about politics and will just do anything they can to evacuate as many people as they can. Therefore the System Alliance and anyone that can lend a hand will help.

[silentfall]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

silentfall wrote...

I'd like to add that, since 99% of humanity is on Earth, it stands to reason that 99% of the Alliance troops and leaders also hail from Earth. Human discipline ends at a certain point, and I'm fairly certain that watching your home planet and basically everyone you ever knew that isn't serving with you burn and die is well past that point. Even if the Alliance did order the troops to hold position, we'd be seeing a fairly large mutiny and a huge drop in morale. After all, what the hell are the soldiers fighting for if everything they have is already lost?

It might surprise you, but on average the discipline would actually go up.

I don't see a single event in history that would be even remotely comparable to the emotional impact of losing Earth, and lesser events have caused morale plummets.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

silentfall wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

silentfall wrote...

I'd like to add that, since 99% of humanity is on Earth, it stands to reason that 99% of the Alliance troops and leaders also hail from Earth. Human discipline ends at a certain point, and I'm fairly certain that watching your home planet and basically everyone you ever knew that isn't serving with you burn and die is well past that point. Even if the Alliance did order the troops to hold position, we'd be seeing a fairly large mutiny and a huge drop in morale. After all, what the hell are the soldiers fighting for if everything they have is already lost?

It might surprise you, but on average the discipline would actually go up.

I don't see a single event in history that would be even remotely comparable to the emotional impact of losing Earth, and lesser events have caused morale plummets.

Zulu doesn't care about your fancy logic!
He and Cerberus will save HOOMANITY from the Reapers!...Oh wait Cerberus is working with the Reapers now....
Whoops.

[Arijharn]

Fixers0 wrote...


Nope, it's a totally independant entity with it's own goverment, that may be founded by earth back in the day, but now relies on colonies and companies for funding. 

o.0 The majority of humanity is still tied up on Earth you know. Humanity's economic might is still centralized on Earth. Terra Nova I think is the largest human colony and even then it only has about 5 million or so inhabitants, which for comparisons sake is about the same as a 'large' city on Earth (Sydney - Australia has a population of 4.5 million, and is the largest city in Australia, New York City has a population of 8 million people -src: wikipedia). Because of this; I highly doubt that the majority of the Systems Alliance funding comes from 'colonies' especially since most colonies are dependant upon the SA for aid, and not the other way around.

Ergo; if the support of the Alliance is dependent upon companies now, then any company worth its salt would have to have a presence on the homeworld. Regardless, while companies may or may not control the funding for the Systems Alliance, the systems Alliance is still dependent upon the goodwill of Earth nations for it's right to exist as the 'galactic face.'

@Zulu, Shephard's trial on Earth is obviously a political machination, and thus it's hardly a 'retcon' for it to occur there -- namely because it isn't just Shephard's trial, but Humanity's trial.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Shepard being on trial on Earth isn't surprising
(S)He may be a Spectre,(S)He may be an Alliance marine....But (S)He was not working under the authority of either,as Admiral Hackett said Shepard was just a guy(girl) "Doing a favor" (S)he is being tried on Earth because humanity is who is bringing up the charges.(trying to save face)

OT: It is human nature to help those who can't help themselves, The USA spends something like 10x more then the next 10 countries down on its military and I don't see that changing when Canad(i)a and Mexico join the union,That being said I doubt they would would bear the brunt of making starships, why bother then the alliance can share it, it's probably just set up for a terrestrial war. Point is if SA isn't in charge of Earths security..no one is.

Plus...no one knows the reapers numbers on Earth,could be a lot, could be just a few ( doesn't make much difference I know) we also don't know how strong the other reapers are,It's safe to assume sovvy was one of the strongest if he was sent out alone. So this is all semantics and speculation until the game comes out, the worse the odds the better the victory.

Also,this has turned into save the base vs. destroy the base.           We know that we are going to win I beleive someone said it yesterday on the sentinel demo:bandit:

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[Clonedzero]

really?

did he just ask this?

really?

wow....

[Xarathox]

The Alliance themselves wouldn't be tasked with the sole responsibility of earths defense. Each individual nation would still need to keep and maintain their own terrestrial armed forces.

If I recall, the codex says that the Alliance is comprised of about a little over 2 million personnel. That's roughly the same size as the U.S's armed forces today. Fighting a war on two fronts (Afghanistan and Iraq), that had our combined forces stretched dangerously thin until more recently. And those two wars took place within the same general region of the world.

Had we been invaded by say, N. Korea, it would've taken roughly a week to withdraw our main fighting forces back to the states to reinforce the defenses. Now imagine stretching that same force out across half the known galaxy, and you can see the sheer logistical nightmare it would be trying to rally everyone back to earth.

Granted, the Alliance would've pulled as many ships and personnel back to earth right after Shepard's little "oops" to be ready for a possible war with the Batarians. But they would still need to maintaine patrols and garrisoned troops around their colonies to repel any possible pirates/slavers who would most certainly have taken advantage of the situation with their absence. And with the amount of space to be covered in the traverse, it's likely that the Alliance would have 1/3 or less of their entire forces stationed at earth.

So continuing the trend of assuming they're using real world logistics (to a degree), and that space travel seems to be about as common as international flights here on earth if not more so, the probability is high that each developed nation has their own fleet of commercial space ships and an "FAA" to govern the whole mess. It's also highly probable that, just like our FAA, they would have a contingency plan to try and evacuate as many people as possible during very specific circumstances, and I would assume an alien invasion could be part of that plan.

But even with all that, less than 1% (way less) would be evacuated off earth during the reaper invasion. Many would only be able to just run to the hills, so to speak and try to survive in hard to access remote locations (a jungle or rain forrest would work wonders), and the majority of the ground fighting would fall directly under the armed forces of each nation.

[Clonedzero]

yeah the most space capable military organization of mankind is just gonna let everyone on earth die.....

seriously?

what a god damn dumb question.

i mean ive seen dumb questions on BSN before, but damn......

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Maybe the OP was trying(successfully) to start a flame war

[Preie]

I agree with Humanoid Typhoon here. Shep is being tried for crimes against humanity. It works better if you saved the council (sees you throwing human lives away). Actually would be a good chance for Paragon to not always equal win. In fact, I hope to be punished somewhat for any decisions I make.

In addition, people could see it a strange coincidence that Shep happened to be on the abducted colonies at the right time. For all earth and alliance knows that Shep / collectors / Cerberus were all working together, therefore, a war crime. Especially now that "derp derp" Cerberus is indoctrinated (which I think is the stupidest thing in the entire world). So Shep working with Cerberus is a war crime against humanity. Trial set on Earth, not council nor alliance.

Only plot hole in my theory is if humans fully back "Specters are above the law"

Now for Zulu and the Original post. Just no...I just see ignorant ramble. Seriously. End up like the Quarians does not equal greatness for humanity. Saving fractions of individual single colonies which could provide mute resources is not going to win a war either. Remember some colonies were haphazardly set up too. Just for colonization race. They could be your so called "Profit." Dumb

I do agree tho, that it will be interesting to see a "counter" on human lives lost. I mean I can hardly wait to see how they handle the Reaper attack. I assume Reaper spread their fire across the galaxy. No matter what, I have a feeling the Alliance will take a beating. Nonetheless, the mortality counter is sort of morbid but gives us consequences.

Can I state I cannot wait for ME3 ha!

[Zulu_DFA]

silentfall wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

silentfall wrote...

I'd like to add that, since 99% of humanity is on Earth, it stands to reason that 99% of the Alliance troops and leaders also hail from Earth. Human discipline ends at a certain point, and I'm fairly certain that watching your home planet and basically everyone you ever knew that isn't serving with you burn and die is well past that point. Even if the Alliance did order the troops to hold position, we'd be seeing a fairly large mutiny and a huge drop in morale. After all, what the hell are the soldiers fighting for if everything they have is already lost?

It might surprise you, but on average the discipline would actually go up.

I don't see a single event in history that would be even remotely comparable to the emotional impact of losing Earth, and lesser events have caused morale plummets.

When troops are mobilized and go on code red that greatly improves morale. And unlike a civilian crowd, in the military it's very easy to isolate whiners and panic mongers and assert the futility of any selfish moves. Especially in the future military with all its fancy psycological and genetic screening technics. It all really depends on the leadership. If the leaders are strong and smart and don't give a rat's ass about "emotional impacts", they'll find a may to keep the morale up under ANY circumstances. It's a technical problem. Maintenance issue, quite literally.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Humanity's trial.

Makes no sense.

Nothing about Arrival does though...

[CroGamer002]

Is this thread for real?

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Humanity's trial.

Makes no sense.

Nothing about Arrival does though...

Of course it does (humanity's trial I mean).

Shephard is the political scapegoat here, but it's trailed on Earth because Batarian's apparently have the capability to effectively wage war on humanity (judging by the fact that they are highly industrialised and that they otherwise have no Council related 'responsibilities', i.e., no treaty of farixen to worry about). It's probably going to be less about Shephard than how the other races perceive how humanity goes about handling it's business.

To me it seems that if there is a batarian delegation, it will demand blood (meaning Shephard's), if the trial otherwise would declare Shephard as otherwise cleared of all charges, then the Batarians will see it as proof that humanity is 'corrupt' and wage war. If the court otherwise declares Shephard guilty, then the Batarians will still win because Shephard is the first human Spectre, thus he's a symbol etc, etc. If a Spectre is found at fault, then a whole new slew of headaches for the Council would threaten to open up (because Saren was still handled 'in house').

It's a question whether Humanity has the necessary intellectual maturity to take centre stage of interstellar politics in other words.

[celuloid]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's called "retcon". Shepard's trial on Earth makes even less sense.

I wonder if the Arcturus station and the Alliance colonies even get mentioned in ME3...

Oh no, it's this thread again.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

Why the hell would the Alliance let Earth burn, people?

It's called "profit".

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Earth is a huge resource and money sink for the Alliance. The
Alliance should be happy the Earth is getting smashed, just like a
greedy nephew is happy when his old, cranky and rich uncle is meeting
the Grim Reaper. Think Udina, think TIM. No point in sacrificing the
fleets to save the unproductive population.

Of course, the
relatives and buddies of the wealthy Alliance honchos would get evac'd,
and it stands to reason that the Alliance would assist in the evacuation
to that end, but the main efforts would be undertaken by Earth's nation
states (with no Alliance insignia on the vehicles).

Take your fascist exploitation ultra right-wing fantasies somewhere you won't get arrested.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

... I can concede that the infromation from the games and books is
insufficient to definitively decide one way or another, and provides
support for both versions ...

Well, what we have here?
Another 60 pages long discussion because opinions are never wrong.

Modifié par celuloid, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:18 .

[Symji]

The Alliance is basically the Space United Nations, a giant organization made up of and funded by all the major nations of Earth, whose sole purpose is keeping the peace among those nations and their interests abroad, aka colonies.

[celuloid]

Saphra Deden wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Take your fascist exploitation ultra right-wing fantasies somewhere you won't get arrested.

I'm pretty sure no one will arrest him here.

In civilized world someone should.

That said, the most populous and developed planet in Alliance space is not "a money sink". It is the complete opposite. They give you money by buying up all that crap you dig out of the ground out in the colonies.

It absurd to think that the Earth is a parasite not worth defending when it is the entire reason the Alliance exists in the first place and the single human world with the biggest economy.

At least someone understands economy.