863 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

This thread...hurts my brain...mod please...shut it down...

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In the beginning of Arrival Hackett tells you it's a black op, and that the Alliance wants to avoid any responsibility.

In the end, with all the evidence and the crime scene itself obliterated, the Alliance suddenly wants to take the responsibility.

Sorry, but that makes no sense.

Zulu, surely you realise that nobody, not even the Alliance, can hush up the fact that an entire system went up in a bright light.

How can you be sure that no evidence escaped? For all we know someone else from the system could have escaped from the system before the asteriod hit. An escapee who managed to get photographic evidence of the Normandy's involvement (seeing as it matches the silhouette of the SR-1, even if it is considerably larger).

More concrete, it's quite possible that they have
a) Records of a prisoner that they kept at a prison facility
Records of said prisoner being sprung out. Presumably every single prison complex has some sort of video surveillance, and that video surveillance had at least 2 days to process the data, even being submitted out of system. Perhaps the fact that the two people are humans is enough to convince the Batarian Hegemony that things must be a human matter. If Cmdr. Shephard is as high profile as what it seems to suggest, then positive identification for our hero is possible.

Perhaps it's less that the Alliance wants to take responsibility, and more has too. Perhaps they can't control sentiment of other species and I'm sure even an universe where Renegade's rule supreme they can't just ignore the fact that the Batarian's are
a) Positively itching for the chance for a fight
Are no longer limited to the traditional 'rules of engagement' as set by Citadel conventions and
c) Probably are well versed in Alliance response times in times of crisis due to the fact that they've sponsored Batarian slaver raids on Alliance systems for years... although always 'circumstancially.'

[Vengeful Nature]

Fixers0 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

All the nation states are "affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance", or so says the codex.

That's actually a rather strange part of the codex, that entry Displayes like the Alliance is some kind of UN. yet other entries i seem to hammer upon that Alliance is an independant Nation, and it's very unlikley that ll the goverments will resort to an indepedant entity for protection from attacks outer space,

Actually far more like NATO, but you're right in spirit.

The Alliance has a "government" in the same way NATO has a government. It doesn't mean a head of state and the different branches, it just means "organised governance". I imagine that the Alliance Parliament is far more like the UN General Assembly than the Parliament of, say, the UK or any other parliamentary democracy.

It's independant in the sense that it goes through it's own decision making process, but a major factor is the wishes of it's member states.

Also take into account that there is probably some kind of clause or treaty that stipulates that the Alliance must provide defense of Earth if it is attacked by an external and non-terrestrial enemy, even if it's limited to humanitarian aid and peacekeeping (which it probably isn't). It make sense.

So, in fact, the Alliance is obliged by it's own nature to help Earth.

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

eh...Dont think that really Constitutes as a "Retcon" Zulu...oversight maybe? *shrug* But still why wouldnt the systems alliance....help the home system?

Because the Alliance  has absolutly no interest in defending earth.

A human organization, funded, founded, and led by Earth's nations, would have no interest in providing military aid to its leaders and source of funding?

Arguably, a far greater source of Alliance funding is the colonies under it's protection, coupled with it's patronage of various interstellar corporations (Cord-Hislop, Exogeni, Binary Helix, etc). This is evident in the fact that the Alliance is functionally and operationally independant from the 18 founding nations, as opposed to NATO, which is basically required to operate as an extension of some or all of it's member states.

Edit - Ninja'd by 17 hours :

Fixers0 wrote...

Nope, it's a totally independant entity with it's own goverment, that may be founded by earth back in the day, but now relies on colonies and companies for funding.

marshalleck wrote...

You're simply wrong. 

"The Alliance is responsible for the government and defense of all extra-solar human colonies, and represents humanity on the galactic stage. It is a supranational government, and is based on a parliamentary system, with the Alliance Parliament based at Arcturus Station. It is unknown if the representation is based on the population of member nations on Earth and the colonies, or if all nations and colonies involved receive the same amount of parliamentary members.

The Alliance government is headed by a Prime Minister; as of 2185 this position was occupied by Amul Shastri. It is unknown whether the Prime Minister is an elected member of Parliament, or is appointed to the position. While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

On paper, yes. But corporations seem to hold a disproportionate amount of colonies compared to the national governments. Think of Feros, which was exclusively run by Exogeni Corporation and given wide-ranging operational freedoms. Exogeni even has first-response duty in case of emergency, rather than the Alliance. Noveria is also a great example of this.

Just thought I'd clarify a few things on the early pages.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .

[LilyasAvalon]

I always thought the Alliance was the political and military representation/group of Humanity as a race.

And, well, Earth is kinda the centre, the origin of Humanity. It makes sense they'd wanna protect it.

...Damnit, now you've got me questioning that.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

This thread...hurts my brain...mod please...shut it down...

Why are you spamming? I don't spam in your threads, and even if this thread wasn't created by
me, I'm enjoying the discussion it contains. If you don't like something
don't listen to it or watch it, but whatever you do don't try and stop
the people who do enjoy it from enjoying it.

Truth is, because I wanted to leave this message, which is related to the thread. I didn't care if it was spamming or not at the time. U mad bro?

[utdan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Aumata wrote...

That is what the Alliance does when the invasion starts though.  They try to rescue as many lives at first, but when they realize that they can't win with out help they start to retreat.

The question is: WHERE ARE THE OTHER EVACUATORS???

Where is the UNAS National Guard? Where are private shuttles?

The thing is, BioWare is again cutting a corner, making a cop-out, in a way that amounts to a retcon in regards to the lore of the series.

What source do you have that proves there aren't private shuttles or shuttles/defenses from individual nations? and please dont say the fall of earth trailer.

Modifié par whoISthatgirl, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:37 .

[Candidate 88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

"The UT-47 Kodiak Drop Shuttle, is a personnel carrier capable of planetary flight and limited FTL travel."

Source?

http://masseffect.wi...ak_Drop_Shuttle

I actually like to read about subjects before talking about them.

In-game source (like this), please, not some fanboy's fantasies.

I repeat, where in the game is it said that the Kodiak is capable of the "limited FTL travel"?

'The Systems Alliance UT-47 drop-shuttle landing craft holds 12 soldiers in a cramped, uncomfortable cargo bay and two more in the cockpit. Officially named the Kodiak, the drop-shuttle is better known to Alliance marines as the "combat cockroach" due to its appearance and durability.The vehicle's robust environmental sealant technology exposes few vulnerable parts to the elements. First tested in the sulfuric acid and extreme temperatures of Venus, the Kodiak can land in hard vacuum, high pressure, and temperatures from near-absolute zero to over 900 degrees Celsius.A true contragravitic vehicle, the Kodiak's substantial element zero core allows flight by entirely countering the vehicle's mass. Its small thrusters are for directional control only, so if the mass effect field fails, the vehicle becomes a proverbial "three-million-credit coffin". The unarmed shuttle forgoes weaponry-space for active masking, electronic countermeasures, and a robust kinetic barrier system. It is ideal for dropping troops undetected.'

Now, you may be about to say that it doesn't directly say that it can do FTL travel. However, I would direct your attention to another in-game codex entry:

'Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistictime dilation effects.'

The Kodiak not only has an element zero core, but a substantial element zero core. It is more than capable of FTL travel. If you are going to insist on ignoring in-game cutscenes then this codex info alone should be enough.

And if you are going to insist that because it doesn't literally say 'the Kodiak can travel at FTL speeds' I would have to ask you to point out the codex entry that literally says 'the Alliance cannot put people on trial on Earth'.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[Candidate 88766]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I always thought the Alliance was the political and military representation/group of Humanity as a race.

And, well, Earth is kinda the centre, the origin of Humanity. It makes sense they'd wanna protect it.

...Damnit, now you've got me questioning that.

They keep glazing over that.

[Arijharn]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

This thread...hurts my brain...mod please...shut it down...

Why are you spamming? I don't spam in your threads, and even if this thread wasn't created by
me, I'm enjoying the discussion it contains. If you don't like something
don't listen to it or watch it, but whatever you do don't try and stop
the people who do enjoy it from enjoying it.

Truth is, because I wanted to leave this message, which is related to the thread. I didn't care if it was spamming or not at the time. U mad bro?

Considering your posts are pretty mature usually, I think you should be a bit embarrassed by it to be fair. As zany as Zulu is sometimes, he has a right to put forth his (wrong, in this case ) opinion.

[armass]

Umm who else would rescue them? the turians? They got their own problems...

Modifié par armass, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[Fixers0]

armass wrote...

Umm who else would rescue them? the turians? They got their own problems...

State armies?

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Secondly, when the profits generated off Earth are distributed on Earth, that's what I call a money sink.

Thirdly, a consumption driven economy is a sure way to bakruptcy (as you have been able to witness in real life since 2008).

You don't know what you're talking about, Zulu. Earth doens't just consume, it produces.

Ever heard of a thing called "trade deficit"? It's not a good thing.

Saphra Deden wrote...


In addition to that, an economy of production is only worthwhile if it has someone who can consume that which it produces.

Geth, again. They don't consume anything. They just process. And produce. Those scary metal bastards!

Saphra Deden wrote...



Earth produces goods and colonists.

The colonies produces raw resources.

Crap. There are loads of examples througout the series that as of 2183, the colonies produce all kinds of goods too. And construction. And food. And ships.

What is produced on Earth is consumed on Earth, and the only thing that Earth really exports is TIM's vintage cigarettes. There are also enough colonists to make more colonists the natural way. There is also the artificial way, should the need arise. And the last thing we want in the new economy is millions of the excessive mouths living on social welfare.

Saphra Deden wrote...


Earth uses its wealth to fund the Alliance...

And that wealth comes from...

Right, the Alliance doesn't need this extra joint to fund itself.

Look, I can agree, that it might seem somewhat "unfair" from a certain point of view for the Allaince to give Earth the finger after all that initial investment, and maybe deep down you think that the economic obligations such as dividends also impose moral obligations on the Alliance and the colonies...

But the real wealth, the industry, and the military might is now off Earth, and the Earth is taking back more than it can give. It's not an expansion you're talking about, it's an implosion that protracts itself by sucking in all that is on its periphery to the vacuum that is in its center. The sooner it ends, the better. TIM realizes that. Think this through.

[Arijharn]

It could be possible that the Alliance is taking over more duties from national defense arrangements due to the fact that the Alliance does it all anyway...

Sort of the evolution of the GDI I suppose.

[Arijharn]

Why do you compare the Geth with humans anyway Zulu, they aren't analogous.

[Someone With Mass]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In-game source (like this), please, not some fanboy's fantasies.

I repeat, where in the game is it said that the Kodiak is capable of the "limited FTL travel"?

In-game, huh? Then what do you call this?

Magic? No-no. Let me guess. Retcon. Because that's the only word you can use.

[celuloid]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
   

celuloid wrote...
        They do not have to get the money. They simply have it.
        Company ownership is on Earth. The profits stay on Earth and are distributed among shareholders who live there and salaries are spent by colonists mainly on luxury goods which stem from Earth. The money stays in Alliance economy.
        Really, it's all Economics 101.
   

    First of all, it's funny how you link to Cord-Hislop Aerospase, whose main honcho Jack Harper has already left Earth and lives in a space station.

Does he have laser-headed sharks, too?
I have to make do with the information there is - Hahne Kedar, Ariake and Cord-Hislop are based on Earth, Aldrin Labs is based on Moon, which is almost the same, since when you want to buy bread, you have to take a trip back down.
And even aforementioned criminal spends money on Earth-produced luxury goods, such as cigars.

    
    Secondly, when the profits generated off Earth are distributed on Earth, that's what I call a money sink.

The profits must be spent somewhere, and they are spent in a place where there is something to spent them on. When there is nothing to spent them on, money inflates and currency loses its value. If you leave out Earth, money will be spent on alien goods and that will turn humanity into third-world race.

    Thirdly, a consumption driven economy is a sure way to bakruptcy (as you have been able to witness in real life since 2008).

I only know of supply/demand and centrally-planned types of economy. I leave up to audience to decide which one is better. (but the answer is supply/demand)

   

celuloid wrote...
       

               Who gives money to the geth?

        You tell me. You obviously made some sort of point here, but I am not Oracle to guess which one.

    Nobody. The point is not every economy needs money.

We are (not) Geth.
We are not synthetics. We do not have collective conscience. If Geth are your role model for humanity, why not Reapers? They are individually far more powerful. But since not becoming Reapers is the main point of ME trilogy, we will still need money after the trilogy ends.

Modifié par celuloid, 24 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[Someone With Mass]

Also, the Mako's element zero core is there to help it make a smooth landing on planets without being crushed.

The Kodiak's element zero core wouldn't need serve such purpose, since it has thrusters for VTOL, so the logical conclusion is that it has a limited FTL drive.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu, surely you realise that nobody, not even the Alliance, can hush up the fact that an entire system went up in a bright light.

I refuse to see the point of accepting the responsibility.

A system went up. In the Batarian space. Must be some new WMD they tested! Alarm!!! Militarize, everybody!!!

Who do you think the Council is going to believe? If anything, exploding star systems should be a matter of the Council's own primary concern.

This "appeasing the Batarians" crap is, for the lack of a better word, crap.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

I repeat, where in the game is it said that the Kodiak is capable of the "limited FTL travel"?[/quote]'The Systems Alliance UT-47 drop-shuttle landing craft holds 12 soldiers in a cramped, uncomfortable cargo bay and two more in the cockpit. Officially named the Kodiak, the drop-shuttle is better known to Alliance marines as the "combat cockroach" due to its appearance and durability.The vehicle's robust environmental sealant technology exposes few vulnerable parts to the elements. First tested in the sulfuric acid and extreme temperatures of Venus, the Kodiak can land in hard vacuum, high pressure, and temperatures from near-absolute zero to over 900 degrees Celsius.A true contragravitic vehicle, the Kodiak's substantial element zero core allows flight by entirely countering the vehicle's mass. Its small thrusters are for directional control only, so if the mass effect field fails, the vehicle becomes a proverbial "three-million-credit coffin". The unarmed shuttle forgoes weaponry-space for active masking, electronic countermeasures, and a robust kinetic barrier system. It is ideal for dropping troops undetected.'

Now, you may be about to say that it doesn't directly say that it can do FTL travel. However, I would direct your attention to another in-game codex entry:

'Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistictime dilation effects.'

The Kodiak not only has an element zero core, but a substantial element zero core. It is more than capable of FTL travel. If you are going to insist on ignoring in-game cutscenes then this codex info alone should be enough.

And if you are going to insist that because it doesn't literally say 'the Kodiak can travel at FTL speeds' I would have to ask you to point out the codex entry that literally says 'the Alliance cannot put people on trial on Earth'.
[/quote]
The Mako has an element zero core. The sky cab has an element zero core. M3 mass accelerator pistol has a minature element zero core.

Nothing of that has a faster-than-light drive, and neither does the Kodiak.


[quote]


This is the picture and Codex description of the SHUTTLE we have in the game.

Both from the description and from the looks of it, it's clearly a simple orbit-to-surface troop insertion vehicle, that can't be capable of interplanetary flight, let alone of FTL.


Now look at this:



This is the SHUTTLE Miranda used in Redemption to track Tazzik's and Feron's SHUTTLES, when they were leaving Omega. Liara also was leaving the Lazarus Station on it in the end of the comic. There was also a frame, showing Miranda on this shuttle's bridge, and it was quite spacious, so I've got an impression its size was at least half of the Normandy SR-1. So, naturally, this SHUTTLE is capable of FTL travel.


Now let's get back to ME2:



This is a ship model you can buy at the souvenier shop on Illium. It's called "Kodiak", but it doesn't look like one. Instead it looks like the Cerberus SHUTTLE from Redemption. In the frame taken from Shepard's exhibit, you can even see its size against the both Normandies. It may not be of the same scale (Sovereign and the DA models are, of course, of a smaller scale, than the models of the smaller craft), but it may be exactly of the same scale, which would make it almost as big as a military frigate!


CONCLUSION. The first two space trips of ME2 - from the Lazarus Station to the Minuteman Station and from the Minuteman Station to Freedom's Progress - Shepard was supposed to take not aboard an "SUV variant of the skycar" the Normandy SR-2 carries in her hold, but on a real space shuttle from Redemption. But due to time/budget/diskspace/whatever constraints, the two concepts got mixed up during development, and we had it the way we had it.

Or, perhaps, it was due do to sheer laziness on BioWare's part. Seriously, why have a fully rendered model and separately designed interior of the REAL SHUTTLE just for the sake of a couple of 5-sec cutscences? What for? "Those retards that play our games likely won't notice nothing," BioWare thought.
[/quote]

What is so hard to understand here?

Nothing.

What is so hard to agree here with?

That Zulu is right.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You are my favorite troll Zulu.
Saphra sometimes admits defeat.
King Zeel is gone.
Elite Midget is gone.

You NEVER admit defeat!
You will sweep all before you in a great trollish wave!!!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In-game source (like this), please, not some fanboy's fantasies.

I repeat, where in the game is it said that the Kodiak is capable of the "limited FTL travel"?

In-game, huh? Then what do you call this?

Magic? No-no. Let me guess. Retcon. Because that's the only word you can use.

Hmmm, may be it is a retcon. BioWare retconned the Real Shuttle even before it had a chance to come to being, lol!
And the FTL physics along with it.

But I prefer to call it what it is: cutting corners by not developing a believable space shuttle for the sake of just two cutscenes. Cutscenes suck anyway, it was almost officially admitted by BioWare (Re: the Alliance dearnoughts inside the Citadel arms). The absence of a mass relay around the Collector Base comes to mind again, as well as the overall "boobs in space" style of ME2.

So yeah, more crappy cutscenes await us in ME3, that's all this thread really comes down to.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Arcian wrote...

Oh, look at all the little monkeys flinging poo back and forth with the King Monkey Zulu.

When are you guys going to learn to not take this sucker seriously?

What can I say, it's fun.

[Someone With Mass]

Where does it say that the Kodiak doesn't have a FTL drive? Oh, that's right. Nowhere.

And element zero cores can be used in more ways than one.