863 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...
If Shepard is a Spectre: Everything that happened was outside his/her jurisdiction, the only people who commands them is the Council and they'd have to handle it. Rather than the Alliance, which Shepard doesn't technically answer to, handling the situation.

Shepard answers to the Alliance as he is still an Alliance soldier, as two different Admirals say in ME1 alone. The Council does not question the methods of Spectres. Never.

In addition to this, having Batarians threatening a war with all of humanity (which may be the entire Council or a representative) would lead to the Council do what's best: scapegoat. They've got a history of scapegoating other people / species to protect their interests, a Batarian war isn't in their interests.

While, it's not in the Alliance's interests, amirite.

But of course the Council would care much more than the Alliance, durr.

In fact they'd care so much that it's the plothole if the Alliance cared more/same.

If Shepard isn't a Spectre: Shepard has to answer the Council AND the Alliance (which Shepard isn't part of anymore), the Council might judge him/her as an enemy of the Council (which the Alliance is part of), having him be shunned by the entire galactic community shows that even the galaxy's hero isn't safe.

Except that Shepard didn't do anything illegal by Council laws. The reason as to why C-Sec or the NYPD aren't cahsing him is the same. It's not illegal by their laws, because it's not their juristriction.

The Alliance, however, considering that it's one of their soldiers, can set a court martial in no time, and with very quick procedures.

Both: The Batarians already don't respect the Council, it wouldn't be out of the question for the Paragon/Renegade Councils to try and use Shepard's trial as an olive branch to the Batarians.

It's out of the question for the Council to attempt to enforce Batarian or Alliance laws.It's also out of the question as to whether Council law applies to non-Spectre Shepard, it doesn't, at all.There is also very few evidence, probably less than enough for an actual court for civilians, much less than a Council one, but not a court martial, obviously.

Or they might view it as the Alliance trying to ignore Shepard by not dealing with him(her) themselves in their own political building with their leadership by dragging him to a planet where the Alliance doesn't have much involvement as a whole.

What. It's an Alliance building, no matter the place. They still have a lot of involvement. But not all of humanity has Arcturus as a symbol.

And well, it's the first time I hear of someone being judged within the HQ of an entire confederation.

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Someone With Mass wrote...

There are so many ways that plan can easily backfire.

That's actually great news.

Because you plan can't backfire. It will simply flop before it's even put in motion.

[Someone With Mass]

By the way, I don't think it takes the whole Alliance fleet to evacuate people from Earth. The dreadnoughts have no place in the evacuation, for example.

[GreenDragon37]

Someone With Mass wrote...

By the way, I don't think it takes the whole Alliance fleet to evacuate people from Earth. The dreadnoughts have no place in the evacuation, for example.

They still had Dreadnaughts, like that ship that you saw get blown up in the distance. However, I doubt all of the Alliance fleet was at Earth, just a large one.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
While the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth, the Alliance has time to come up with a better plan to stop the Reapers than "we fight or we die". Such a better plan would involve some kind of super-weapon, or a virus, or something else, that might actually hurt the Reapers. Bonus points if you saved the Colector Base and  TIM can put a million puppies in a giant blender to figure out some weak spots on the Reapers. When the Alliance is as much ready as it can be, it will launch the general offensive. Bonus points if the aliens' fleets get sacrificed first in the process. Then there might be a chance that the Humanity might persevere as a species, even if 99.9% of it dies.

By contrast, if the Alliance attempts to evacuate the Earth (which is impossible), its fleet will be destroyed by the Reapers. Given that the stupid aliens seem to be doing the same thing (with the same result), there won't be any force to be put to work when TIM or Batarians or whoever come up with the deus ex machina. Then the Reapers proceed unrestrained to harvesting 100% of sapient life in the galaxy.

99.9% < 100%.

0.01% > 0%

Therefore it's a plain outright retaded act of folly for the Alliance to try evacuating Earth's population from under the Reapers' claws.

TIM is the antagonist.

Research staff don't tend to drive rescue shuttles, so the superweapon claim is  just silly.

One or no ships would be required for any virus or super-weapon.

Anything else is logically invalid, since even if that something else manages to give every Alliance vessel the firepower of a Reaper (that means that we have to cut through the technolodgical advances of millions of years), the Alliance fleet is still outnumbered.

If you save no one on Earth, then either the species will become extinct or another race will make it's client race or not.

There is also a thing called duty.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
No we won't be.

If we lose 90% of the fleet, then we'll be screwed.

Because 90% of the fleet has more chances of defeating the Reapers than 10% ....right.

They are outnumbered in both cases, but they actually have a few humans left in the second case.

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Seems like a complete waste of effort to evacuate the planet. In fact, I would suggest that everybody with a private ship on earth start flying around to give the reapers too many targets to shoot at, possibly allowing some warships to get lucky.

[Goneaviking]

Fixers0 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

eh...Dont think that really Constitutes as a "Retcon" Zulu...oversight maybe? *shrug* But still why wouldnt the systems alliance....help the home system?

Because the Alliance  has absolutly no interest in defending earth.

Apparently they do have an interest, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to evacuate civilians nor would they attempt to retake it after the Reaper assault.

All the way back in ME1 the Alliance asks Shepard to do a mission on the Earth's moon involving one of their Bases. It certainly seems that they have a place in Earth's solar system and even if there were technical rules blocking their deployment on Earth I doubt that the fleet would be willing to stand by and let their homeworld be eaten by space monsters.

Seems like the kind of rule worth risking judicial punishment for.

[didymos1120]

*Looks up Earth Codex entry*

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. The great cities are greening as arcology skyscrapers and telecommuting allow more efficient use of land.

Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance.

*Close ties between SA and Earth are plain and apparent*

*Fails to see what the big problem is*

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .

[Phaedon]

didymos1120 wrote...
*Close ties between SA and Earth are plain and apparent*

*Fails to see what the big problem is*

The problem is that everything must be a plothole.

[Someone With Mass]

That's another problem. Why would other races help humanity when it looks like they're already kicking the bucket and can't give anything in return to validate the other races' huge sacrifices to take back Earth from the Reapers?

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The Reapers will come after the colonies and the fleets. Earth isn't their only target, Zulu. Defending our colonies will divide us. We'd be screwed wither way. Do you want the Reapers to play a "divide and conquer" war? You know, the thing they're good at?

When you are opposed by such an overwhelming force, retreat is your only option. Some kind of guerilla strategy should be adopted on the galactic scale until the hour our ships can be outfitted with something that provides a reasonable kill-to-loss ratio against the Reapers. Until then - evade contact.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:58 .

[Someone With Mass]

Phaedon wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
*Close ties between SA and Earth are plain and apparent*

*Fails to see what the big problem is*

The problem is that everything must be a plothole.

And retcon retroactive continuity.

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Shepard answers to the Alliance as he is still an Alliance soldier, as two different Admirals say in ME1 alone. The Council does not question the methods of Spectres. Never.[/quote]

You're not an Alliance soldier in ME2/3.

Council does question it when it impacts them, do you think they would've been fine with Shepard if he triggered a war with the Terminus systems by going to Ilos or whatever?

They were protecting Saren until they had some reasoning (really weak) reason to stop him and then tried to stop him themselves rather than send the Turian Hierarchy to deal with it to appease humanity.

[quote]While, it's not in the Alliance's interests, amirite.

But of course the Council would care much more than the Alliance, durr.[/quote]

And the Alliance is part of the Council.

[quote]Except that Shepard didn't do anything illegal by Council laws. The reason as to why C-Sec or the NYPD aren't cahsing him is the same. It's not illegal by their laws, because it's not their juristriction.[/quote]

Blowing up an entire Batarian system, working with Cerberus (an enemy of the Council) and whatever else isn't a crime by Council laws?

[quote]The Alliance, however, considering that it's one of their soldiers, can set a court martial in no time, and with very quick procedures.[/quote]

Shepard isn't an Alliance soldier in ME2/3.

[quote]It's out of the question for the Council to attempt to enforce Batarian or Alliance laws.[/quote]

Unless it has politican gain (Council gains respect with the Batarians) and serves the same purpose as the Alliance putting them on trial with more to gain.


[quote]It's also out of the question as to whether Council law applies to non-Spectre Shepard, it doesn't, at all.[/quote]

Council laws is essentially their own galactic rules, they've attacked people who weren't part of the Citadel because they weren't following Council laws. Unless you're trying to say Shepard somehow is immune to these laws.

[quote]There is also very few evidence[/quote]

Shepard's a scapegoat, it's already been suggested it'll be a kangaroo court. There's no evidence that says the Alliance is part of it too, though somehow Hackett says that the Batarians will cry out for blood.


[quote]Or they might view it as the Alliance trying to ignore Shepard by not dealing with him(her) themselves in their own political building with their leadership by dragging him to a planet where the Alliance doesn't have much involvement as a whole.

[quote]
And well, it's the first time I hear of someone being judged within the HQ of an entire confederation.
[/quote]

Parliamentary trial.

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The Reapers will come after the colonies and the fleets. Earth isn't their only target, Zulu. Defending our colonies will divide us. We'd be screwed wither way. Do you want the Reapers to play a "divide and conquer" war? You know, the thing they're good at?

When you are opposed by such an overwhelming force, retreat
is your only option. Some kind of guerilla strategy should be adopted on the galactic scale until the hour our ships can be outfitted with something that provides a reasonable kill-to-loss ratio against the Reapers. Until then - avoid contant.

The problem is that so far there won't be a reasonable kill-loss ratio against the Reapers, especially if the Alliance is fighting them alone for the moment. We'd be divided and conquered. I don't think gureilla tactics would work against a fleet of Reapers attacking individual colonies with a divided fleet.

[Iakus]

And how do we know these shuttles aren't simply pulling a "smash and grab" scooping up as many civilians as they can before fleeing back to their fleet and bugging out?

For that matter, Fifth Fleet, at least is probably already trashed at this point, as Arcturus Station guards the relay to Earth. And if the Reaper fleet has reached Earth...

[ArcanistLibram]

The Alliance is the Earth's military presence in space. Earth, like everything else, is in space. Earth, and the entire solar system, are, like all Alliance territory, under the protection of the Alliance fleet.

[GreenDragon37]

iakus wrote...

And how do we know these shuttles aren't simply pulling a "smash and grab" scooping up as many civilians as they can before fleeing back to their fleet and bugging out?

For that matter, Fifth Fleet, at least is probably already trashed at this point, as Arcturus Station guards the relay to Earth. And if the Reaper fleet has reached Earth...

It depends on if they just flew in like they did in Arrival or if they took the relay. It'd probably make more sense that they took the Relay after destroying Arcturus.  Why else would the Alliance fleet be massing over Europe if no-one else knew what was coming? It just seems like they had advanced warning. Maybe Arcturus fell and then the Reapers barrelled through the Relay?

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...



TIM is the antagonist.

And Tali is confirmed permanent squadmate. Duh.

Phaedon wrote...

If you save no one on Earth, then either the species will become extinct or another race will make it's client race or not.

If I save noone on Earth, whether or not the species becomes extinct will depend on the number of Humans I save elsewhere.

Another race will make humanity a client race if the Alliance's fleet is lost. That's just additional reason why the Alliance should not sacrifice its fleet to save Earth's population.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 juillet 2011 - 12:09 .

[redbaron76]

Simple fact is that 19 nations on earth are founding members of the system alliance. One of them being United States of North America (USA, mexico and Canada) Also UK, france and Germany are members of alliance, also Russia and China are included in the allliance, so yes Alliance would defend earth and hel evacuate it.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Shepard isn't an Alliance soldier in ME2/3.

He was soldier enough to almost be brought in for questioning by the Alliance.

Also, Shepard officially rejoins the Alliance just before he leaves Earth. Anderson made sure of that.

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...
You're not an Alliance soldier in ME2/3.

Yes, you are, the fact that you are registered as KIA but not reported back just makes you a traitor, which is a very good excuse for a court martial.

Why the hell "faking" a death would stop you from being registered into the Alliance and eligible for court martial?

Council does question it when it impacts them, do you think they would've been fine with Shepard if he triggered a war with the Terminus systems by going to Ilos or whatever?

And guess what, they can remove you of your Spectre status but they can't have you tried for any actions before that. There's a reason that Shepard only went after Saren for being a rogue element, and commanding a geth army.

Spectres are above the law.

They were protecting Saren until they had some reasoning (really weak) reason to stop him and then tried to stop him themselves rather than send the Turian Hierarchy to deal with it to appease humanity.

If that's a fact then I want a source.

I know that there is no source because that's not a fact.

Because apparently sending Shepard after Saren and not a fleet that would trigger a war was to cater to humanity.

And that's why the turian councilor said that it was too early, right?

No matter how you spin it, that's at best your opinion, even though it's apparently baseless.

And the Alliance is part of the Council.

And USA is part of the NATO and the UN. Thank you for proving my point.

Blowing up an entire Batarian system, working with Cerberus (an enemy of the Council) and whatever else isn't a crime by Council laws?

Yeah, the LAPD is still chasing me over that crime I comitted in India 2 weeks ago.

I mean, really? What is with these arguments? Are you really obsessed with finding a plothole that doesn't exist? You do it all more often.

Shepard isn't an Alliance soldier in ME2/3.

Even if Shepard's death was conventional, then he would still be a soldier. Ever noticed that they give medals to soldiers post-mortem and burry them under a flag?

Unless it has politican gain (Council gains respect with the Batarians) and serves the same purpose as the Alliance putting them on trial with more to gain.

No, it's not even that it makes no sense.

It is ILLEGAL.

You can't prosecute someone on illegal charges.

Council laws is essentially their own galactic rules, they've attacked people who weren't part of the Citadel because they weren't following Council laws. Unless you're trying to say Shepard somehow is immune to these laws.

Another of these facts. 

And yes, Shepard is immune because he either is not a Spectre, or he doesn't commit a crime that has anything to do with Council laws.

They don't make laws and rules up you know, someone writes them down. And someone writes the juristriction down too. That's basic common sense.

And they didn't attack humanity because what they were doing was illegal. Did you see the Council demanding sanctions?

No.

Guess who is paying a fine back to humanity.

Shepard's a scapegoat, it's already been suggested it'll be a kangaroo court. There's no evidence that says the Alliance is part of it too, though somehow Hackett says that the Batarians will cry out for blood.

I won't go over legal system 101.

There  are no Council charges against Shepard.

Parliamentary trial.

Court Martial.

Systems Alliance, not USNA or EU, or other nation.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 juillet 2011 - 12:18 .

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And Tali is confirmed permanent squadmate. Duh.

Yes, your problem being?

Phaedon wrote...
If I save noone on Earth, whether or not the species becomes extinct will depend on the number of Humans I save elsewhere.

No, it has nothing to do with that. That's not how natural extinction works.

That's just additional reason why the Alliance should not sacrifice its fleet to save Earth's population.

lolwat.

If the only people who survive are crewmen, then there will most likely not be a second generation to serve on the ships.

There will also be no one to produce materials, or ships.

The Migrant Fleet survived for 300+ years.

The Quarian flotilla with no civillians would survive 15.

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is that so far there won't be a reasonable kill-loss ratio against the Reapers, especially if the Alliance is fighting them alone for the moment.

That's exactly why the Alliance should not fight. It should disengage and retreat to conserve its force, both in expensive ships and trained servicemen.

GreenDragon37 wrote...



We'd be divided and conquered.

And if you fight, you'll be slaughtered.

GreenDragon37 wrote...



I don't think gureilla tactics would work against a fleet of Reapers attacking individual colonies with a divided fleet.

It will work in the sense that the Alliance forces will be conserved to fight another day as opposed to be pointlessely expended in a glorious banzai charge.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's exactly why the Alliance should not fight. It should disengage and retreat to conserve its force, both in expensive ships and trained servicemen.

Until when? The Reapers are aiming specifically at them? At no point the fleet will reach a point to defeat the Reapers by themselves.

GreenDragon37 wrote...
And if you fight, you'll be slaughtered.

Wrong, if you don't fight you'll be slaughtered.

More survivors means more next generation crewmen and more resource producers.

GreenDragon37 wrote...
It will work in the sense that the Alliance forces will be conserved to fight another day as opposed to be pointlessely expended in a glorious banzai charge.

If they can't fight in one day, then they won't be able to fight in the next one.