2828 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Captain Crash wrote...

100k wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
Then it should go both ways. I don't see male shep being 'acknowledged as a man' as well. I do see femshep being acknowledged as woman by Harkin in Chora's Den. For the rest is everyone reacting to Shepard like he/she is no gender at all.

Fair enough. Sounds really good to me, actually. Playing as one gender or the other should always be just a little bit different. Not in a negative or positive aspect, but in the aspect that there is recognition for who and what Shepard is.

Thus why Gender Neutrality is the best and easiest option.   Little distinctions like sir and ma'am are always nice. However femshep shouldnt be able to do something maleshep cant and vice versa.  They are the same character after all.  

For Bioware the best option is also the simpliest as its something they dont have to think about and it will please everyone still.

True. Best way is not to put too much focus in this. Bioware has already got more than enough stuff to fix.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 29 juillet 2011 - 07:37 .

[100k]

Captain Crash wrote...

100k wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Kreidian wrote...

That said it is important that FemShep be able to portray herself as actually being a woman. It's important for the character to be able to differentiate her from her male counterpart. Characters who are nothing more then carbon copies with just the gender flag switched don't really make very compelling people. FemShep should be something more then just "Shepard with boobs". In this way when characters make a reference to Shepard being a woman, it's a beleiveable part of the game.

Then it should go both ways. I don't see male shep being 'acknowledged as a man' as well. I do see femshep being acknowledged as woman by Harkin in Chora's Den. For the rest is everyone reacting to Shepard like he/she is no gender at all.

Fair enough. Sounds really good to me, actually. Playing as one gender or the other should always be just a little bit different. Not in a negative or positive aspect, but in the aspect that there is recognition for who and what Shepard is.

Thus why Gender Neutrality is the best and easiest option.   Little distinctions like sir and ma'am are always nice. However femshep shouldnt be able to do something maleshep cant and vice versa.  They are the same character after all.  

For Bioware the best option is also the simpliest as its something they dont have to think about and it will please everyone still.

While I agree that gender neutrality is the easiest option, I would disagree with you (in this case) for two reasons:

1) I don't think that ME3, the third and final part of the original series, is the right part for gender neutrality to kick in. In the first two games, there were tiny little moment where the way a situation was approached was just slightly different. The result was the same, and it wasn't as if femShep had to "do" anything different from mShep, but it was how characters perceived her that (in my opinion) was refreshing. For them to cut that now, at the finale, would be both inconsistent, and avoiding the issues with any kind of sexism/racism/sexual orientation/classism/etc. I expect high class devs like Bioware to at least touch on these kind of issues, because their games are more mature than most in the industry.

2). The issue isn't how the NPC perceives Shepard. It it's how Shepard reacts to the NPC that is important. So far, as far as I'm concerned, BW has handled this flawlessly. Merc in Omega thinks that Shepard (because she's a woman) should be a stripper? Pull out your gun and make a point. Merc pirate in ME1 thinks that femShepard should sleep with him? Ignore him, outsmart him, or kill him. FemShep suggests seduction to Donovan Hock at a party (while probably planning to knock him out once she gets him alone)? She's just doing the smart thing.

But that's just me.
B)B)

I consider femShep to be in the same league as these two characters.




Both characters whose gender didn't dictate who they are, but attributed greatly to the decisions made in their lives. Gender doesn't have to define femShep. But it can help forge her into a definitive and inspirational figure. 

Modifié par 100k, 29 juillet 2011 - 07:54 .

[LPPrince]

jamesp81 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'll take Pony and Trollface. Keep the rest.

Poised in front of Earth under siege, Trollface is epic.

Alliance: ZOMG, Earth is being attacked!
Trollface: Problem?

And then we'll save the galaxy with friendship.

[Kreidian]

Actually I'm perfectly fine with things going both ways. If there is a point inthe story where an NPC can respond differently to male Shepard I'd say go for it. For example perhaps there is a female human merc at some point who will try to seduce male Shep but will just try to avoid FemShep instead.

The issue there is you need to make sure it doesn't go overboard, this is still the same game and needs to be able to tell its story without diverging wildly between genders. This is where gender neutrality becomes so important. However there is a HUGE difference between gender neutrality and gender ignorance. Being able to recognize that Shepard is a guy or a girl is what's important. It doesn't have to change the whole game to do so.

[LPPrince]

Kreidian wrote...

Actually I'm perfectly fine with things going both ways. If there is a point inthe story where an NPC can respond differently to male Shepard I'd say go for it. For example perhaps there is a female human merc at some point who will try to seduce male Shep but will just try to avoid FemShep instead.

The issue there is you need to make sure it doesn't go overboard, this is still the same game and needs to be able to tell its story without diverging wildly between genders. This is where gender neutrality becomes so important. However there is a HUGE difference between gender neutrality and gender ignorance. Being able to recognize that Shepard is a guy or a girl is what's important. It doesn't have to change the whole game to do so.

Brings to mind ME1 when Harkin was hitting on FemShep.

"I'd rather drink acid after chewing on razor blades"

FemShep win.

[Halfdan The Menace]

Arxduke wrote...

It's Friday everybody! FRIDAY~ roflmao    ---not a bash, but this was too funny to leave out. Enjoi

I choose Pony Shepard!!  

Look at that!

[slimgrin]

@100K.

I believe the blonde is from Metal Gear? A superb character design because of the convincing expression. The other one looks like a plastic doll.


*People, please quit spamming stupid images.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:39 .

[Captain Crash]

100k wrote...

While I agree that gender neutrality is the easiest option, I would disagree with you (in this case) for two reasons:

1) I don't think that ME3, the third and final part of the original series, is the right part for gender neutrality to kick in. In the first two games, there were tiny little moment where the way a situation was approached was just slightly different. The result was the same, and it wasn't as if femShep had to "do" anything different from mShep, but it was how characters perceived her that (in my opinion) was refreshing. For them to cut that now, at the finale, would be both inconsistent, and avoiding the issues with any kind of sexism/racism/sexual orientation/classism/etc. I expect high class devs like Bioware to at least touch on these kind of issues, because their games are more mature than most in the industry.

2). The issue isn't how the NPC perceives Shepard. It it's how Shepard reacts to the NPC that is important. So far, as far as I'm concerned, BW has handled this flawlessly. Merc in Omega thinks that Shepard (because she's a woman) should be a stripper? Pull out your gun and make a point. Merc pirate in ME1 thinks that femShepard should sleep with him? Ignore him, outsmart him, or kill him. FemShep suggests seduction to Donovan Hock at a party (while probably planning to knock him out once she gets him alone)? She's just doing the smart thing.

But that's just me.

[pic snip]

Both characters whose gender didn't dictate who they are, but attributed greatly to the decisions made in their lives. Gender doesn't have to define femShep. But it can help forge her into a definitive and inspirational figure. 

I think you got this flipped about all wrong.  Gender neutrality doesnt have to kick in the third game because it already exists.   Shepard is the same regardless of gender and its the tiny variations in ME1 and 2 that break the habit and offer variety.    The scenes are few and far between (I think a dev said only 5% of dialogue is gender weighted) and Kasumi's mission was a DLC afterthought as well.   These are tiny amounts regardless.

I do agree these small scenes are a nice change and offer something different to each gender playthrough.  I do think thats important for variety and to add something special.  But your making out these issues should be more heavily weighted.  I disagree with that and think other then a few dialogue changes things should remain fundamentally the same.  


Plus im not sure what you mean in that last paragraph. The previous parts you been stating that gender is an issue and she shouldnt be so much gender neutral.  You then state  "Gender doesn't have to define femShep. But it can help forge her into a definitive and inspirational figure"  which contradicts what you just said previous.    She already is an inspirational figure because she does exactly what her male counterpart does, which is something really rare in gaming.   Thats why many people love her because gender doesnt at all define her actions. 



Edit:  I will point out that I do like the idea of these little acknowledgements and suggested it in point #5 in this thread.  http://social.biowar...index/7187121/1

However after discussing the issue with several people in that thread I think many dont actually want to see to much of it.  Even Bioware themselves try to avoid it when they commented directly on the issue

Read here:  http://pats-quinade....com/229049.html

Modifié par Captain Crash, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .

[LPPrince]

slimgrin wrote...

@100K.

I believe the blonde is from Metal Gear? A superb character design because of the convincing expression. The other one looks like a plastic doll.


*People, please quit spamming stupid images.

The blonde you're referring to is "The Boss" from MGS3-Snake Eater.

[100k]

slimgrin wrote...

@100K.

I believe the blonde is from Metal Gear? A superb character design because of the convincing expression. The other one looks like a plastic doll.


*People, please quit spamming stupid images.

Well, my post wasn't about their personal appearances as it was about how they clearly and definitely overcame sexism, both in their personal game stories, and the industry. 

Most people know all about The Boss by now. 39 years old, strong, female, NEVER remotely sexualized (even when she rips open her combat suit to show Snake a scar that runs down her breasts and stomach. She's charismatic, strong willed, loyal, and deadly. Basically a possible version of femShepard in 10 years. Her influence throughout Metal Gear Solid 3 is resonating. In Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker (which takes place a decade after her death), Snake learns that she basically had the worst life possibly imaginable -- and not in the melodramatic sense. Fitting right in with the times she lived through (50s and 60s) she faced an unimaginable wall of sexism, and gender specific problems that she never let get her down. Her past and gender clearly don't (exclusively) define her as an individual in the games, but they do give some context for why she is who she is.


The redheaded "doll face" that you speak of is Nariko from Heavenly Sword. She is, in my honest to god opinion, the single best -linear- female protagonist in gaming's history. She's also the most overlooked. A perfect example of how to make a visually appealing female protagonist with a thoroughly realistic character, Nariko faces pretty much the same stuff as The Boss, mins the pregnancy. While she's -fairly- scantly clad, she NEVER (ever) comes off as an over -- hell, one could argue remotely sexualized character, like The Boss. She never struts her stuff like Bayonetta. She never has awkward groin and boob oriented camera angles shoved at her, like a DOA girl. She is 100% character > appearance. 

That's how I think femShep should be. Someone who, like all women faced sexism at some point in her life, and rose above it to unparalleled results.

Example - 

Young male soldier enters a room with mShep*
Soldier: Hey, you're Shepard? You're a hero in my books, I want to be just like you some day! You inspired me to join the military!

Young female soldier enters a room with femShep*
Soldier: Hey, you're Shepard? You're a hero in my books, and an inspiration to women everywhere! You inspired me join the military!

That's the kind of gender differences I want to see in ME3 + other games.

[100k]

*Important to note that I don't want these kinds of interactions to saturate the future games. ME1 had, what, 3 instances where femShep was treated slightly different from mShep? ME2 had around the same amount? There's no reason why ME3 shouldn't just have two or three similar instances of the same style.*

[RGFrog]

retcon aside, i'm all for more hairstyles, more and more accurate facial customizations, even new faces. I have no problem with any of the 6 pics, really. As long as they're not forced. I was fine with the default femshep, and the default custom femshep. But as you see in my avatar, I didn't use them too much.

So long as I can chuckle at Sailor-Moon, highschoolgirlsavestheuniverse, femshep and move on to a more mature, experienced femshep that actually looks like she has some experience, then I'll be happy.

As it is, though, the current 6, only #6 seems to have experienced more than being the handbag on some jock's shoulder. But none of them look like anything described in ME1 spacer, collonist, earther with additional experience. And none of them look like they could do anything but toss a lolipop at Saren, or blow a kiss and pose at the collectors.

If this were anime, then I'd have a different opinion... oh how I'm hoping face customization is going to be better in me3!

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

High res of 4 yet?

[LPPrince]

At this point, I don't think high res' of others will show.

People have been asking a LOT, I wonder why they haven't been put up(if they exist).

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

LPPrince wrote...

At this point, I don't think high res' of others will show.

People have been asking a LOT, I wonder why they haven't been put up(if they exist).

We have ones of 3, 5, and 6 (the LEAST popular one to boot) but none of 1, 2, and 4? what gives?

[LPPrince]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

At this point, I don't think high res' of others will show.

People have been asking a LOT, I wonder why they haven't been put up(if they exist).

We have ones of 3, 5, and 6 (the LEAST popular one to boot) but none of 1, 2, and 4? what gives?

I guess whoever originally uploaded the others didn't have all of them.

[Someone With Mass]

Anyone but the obvious duplicates. (Shepard #1, #2 and #5)

Seriously. They just swapped hairstyles and colors on those.

[Kleetor]

ModestmeNTaLmogul wrote...

Arxduke wrote...

It's Friday everybody! FRIDAY~ roflmao    ---not a bash, but this was too funny to leave out. Enjoi

I choose Pony Shepard!!  

Look at that!

Problem? haha

[LPPrince]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Anyone but the obvious duplicates. (Shepard #1, #2 and #5)

Seriously. They just swapped hairstyles and colors on those.

LOLWUT

[Chaos-fusion]

*Nevermind*

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:35 .

[slimgrin]

Oh man ...the expert has got a hold of photoshop...so funny...glasses, and a kitty face..oh ...hilarious!!!

So funny, so creative...they must be experts!!!

LOLOLOLOLOOOL!!!!!!!!

Oh BSN you continually amaze me, you'all a bunch of geenyusses!!!

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:24 .

[Ruse]

slimgrin wrote...

Oh man ...the expert has got a hold of photoshop...so funny...glasses, and a kitty face..oh ...hilarious!!!

So funny, so creative...they must be experts!!!

LOLOLOLOLOOOL!!!!!!!!

Oh BSN you continually amaze me, you'all a bunch of geenyusses!!!

Oh, deal with it.
Looking at your signature I'm a bit surprised you don't already.

Anyways, Blondie Shep has grown on me, and if she wins I'll be glad to kick ass throughout the galaxy with her.
I may even change my main FemShep to her.
Kaidan may be a bit surprised.

[padawanmage]

 None of the above...

I just don't understand why the original Jane Shepard from the first two games didn't get included.

Seriously, who came up with these models? Were any of the designers women?

[Zfazal84_]

Number 6 for me. She looks closet to my femshep