557 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A fully voiced set protagonist can immerse me as much as a silent and relatively more customizable PC. Two examples would be Geralt from The Witcher and the Warden from Origins.

The problem thus for me, is when I have voiced PCs that stand in the awkward middle. Not giving enough room to RP, while not being set either. The two examples are Shepard and Hawke. Maybe it's just me, but I can't say they are set, nor can I say they are as "first-person" as the Warden. The only exception thus far for me is Mike Thorton from Alpha Protocol, though that may be because one of the ways to play him is exactly how I'd want to play.

That is of course just my impression and opinion.

See, Hawke worked for me (but the Warden didn't) I think largely because of the flavour of character I play. Hawke often had deflect through humour, or absent that, appropriate diplomatic responses. It worked for me, because of the style I'd like to play. Mike Thorton in AP worked too, because of the professional stance. 

The Warden, though, lacked that. It was the curt, to-the-point phrases that make the Warden impossible for me. 

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

I think when we started discussing tone we had different ideas of what sort of tone we meant. I knew you were talking about emotional tone rather than vocals (pitch etc), but I didn't think you thought I was suggesting emotional tone should be the province of the reader/PC. I don't. I think the sound of the voice itself, the pitch and depth, timbre and tune, is what should be given to the imagination of the player, just as control of what their character looks like is. (Or we should at least be given a mute button so we're not forced to endure a voice we don't like, or one we think doesn't fit).
Does that make more sense?
(Anyway, I haven't revised this reply. Lunch awaits!)

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I agree with you, and I'd fully support a "mute" button (which, by way of aside, would display the full text). That (IMO) would be a good compromise.

However, Bioware has stated (during the production stage of DA 2) that they want to force the voice acting on the player, so that kind of option is out of question for them (the statement was done when discussing the focus testing that would lead to the paraphrase instead of full line choice for dialogue presentation). And it still doesn't solve the issue that, logically, paraphrases are the worse method for presenting complex dialogue choices.

[SilentK]

I really liked the wheel with tone and paraphrases =) for me it's really nice not to have the list written out with things to say. I remember things I have seen written far to well and it became just a matter of clicking the things without really reading and feeling for it. The thing I love best about paraphrase is that I don't know all the available replies in advance for the tones I haven't chosen. For me that is like replay-bonus. If the next Hawke would chose a direct approach in that situation, what would happen then. Can only speak for me but I enjoyed it very much =)

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
However, Bioware has stated (during the production stage of DA 2) that they want to force the voice acting on the player, so that kind of option is out of question for them (the statement was done when discussing the focus testing that would lead to the paraphrase instead of full line choice for dialogue presentation). 

They said the full line led to dialogue skipping. But I never said that the full line should be available jointly with VO. It only comes with mute enabled.

And it still doesn't solve the issue that, logically, paraphrases are the worse method for presenting complex dialogue choices.

You know I totally disagree.  

Edit: To elaborate, it's not the length but rather the use, and the paraphrase is better at giving you the gist of an answer that the character limit withs silent VO Bioware uses. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:57 .

[Jane Shepard]

I like both voiced and silent characters. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Silent character won't speak untill you choose a phrase, but such a dialogue will be one-sided in some ways. Voiced protagonists are very good. But there is one reason why I do not like them. Autodialogues. They are very rare, but nevertheless they appear.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
However, Bioware has stated (during the production stage of DA 2) that they want to force the voice acting on the player, so that kind of option is out of question for them (the statement was done when discussing the focus testing that would lead to the paraphrase instead of full line choice for dialogue presentation). 

They said the full line led to dialogue skipping. But I never said that the full line should be available jointly with VO. It only comes with mute enabled.

And it still doesn't solve the issue that, logically, paraphrases are the worse method for presenting complex dialogue choices.

You know I totally disagree.  
Edit: To elaborate, it's not the length but rather the use, and the paraphrase is better at giving you the gist of an answer that the character limit withs silent VO Bioware uses.

The gist of the answer means not knowing the response. It means an educated guess bassed on incomplete information.
You're actually agreeing with me; you simply do not believe it is an issue, which is a different matter. I do believe it is an issue, strongly, as lack on information in character choices means, effectively, that I cannot make a real choice on my character's actions, as I don't know if what I'm guessing the option is leading to is actually what said option represents.
Simply put, paraphrases cannot be reverse engineered, thus they fail.

[Bazedragon]

I prefer voiced. Despite the issues (which I noted at parts of ME1, in fact) where I don't hear much of the shown emotion in the voice.
For it adds a level of amusement, when you actually have a voice to pin to a character.. only real problem is if the aesthetic of the character does not match the voice as such.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

phaonica wrote...

I think that would be an acceptable compromise, howevever, to me, it seems to require that the dialog choice must be a complete line, and not just a paraphrase.

At the least it would require subtitles to always be on for the PC. XD

I happen to strongly dislike the paraphrase system, so it's probably best I don't go into that side of it, hehe. Getting (the option for) full lines would make me giddy with joy.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

From my experience, I found that what breaks my immersion has little to do with whether the PC is voiced or not, but rather what the PC is designed to be.

A fully voiced set protagonist can immerse me as much as a silent and relatively more customizable PC. Two examples would be Geralt from The Witcher and the Warden from Origins.

The problem thus for me, is when I have voiced PCs that stand in the awkward middle. Not giving enough room to RP, while not being set either. The two examples are Shepard and Hawke. Maybe it's just me, but I can't say they are set, nor can I say they are as "first-person" as the Warden. The only exception thus far for me is Mike Thorton from Alpha Protocol, though that may be because one of the ways to play him is exactly how I'd want to play.

That is of course just my impression and opinion.

This I agree with (except the Alpha Protocol, which I have never played, but I get the gist ).

I have absolutely no problems with set characters who are voiced, because they are not mine -- they should sould like how their creators want them to sound (Geralt, Guybrush Threepwood, Rynn, Commander Blair...). No issues with immersion there.

It's the awkward 'middle ground' I don't like. I see the advantages of VO, but the practise (so far) has been more detrimental to my enjoyment of 'first person' RPGs than immersive.

@In Exile - I think we are on the same page now.

[Wyndham711]

Silent. Though I guess expressing this opinion is a folly, since they have already stated that PC VO is what they are going to stick to. It is more cinematic that way, and cinematicness is both the holy grail and the sacred cow for BioWare nowadays.

[Wereparrot]

Voiced. If you don't like the voice, or accent, you can always imagine another, as I do with Shepard. I think a voice adds life to the protagonist. Anyway, it's not as if the Warden didn't have a voice either, if only for those ridiculous battle cries.

[Fallstar]

I prefer silent, although I'm OK with voiced so long as there's no paraphrasing involved. I like to know what my character is going to say before they say it. If for some reason Bioware feel the majority of their audience do not want to read a few lines of dialogue, they could at least put a little pop up box with what the actual line says when you hover over it. That way people who just want to skip dialogue, or prefer a surprise when their character speaks or something like that, can have that, and those of us who prefer to know what we are going to say before we say it can also have that.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
The gist of the answer means not knowing the response. It means an educated guess bassed on incomplete information.

It's more than that, though, because Hawke's line or Shepard's line can be longer than just the silent VO allows for. So if there is a need to express a very complicated though, VO can allow for this.

You're actually agreeing with me; you simply do not believe it is an issue, which is a different matter. I do believe it is an issue, strongly, as lack on information in character choices means, effectively, that I cannot make a real choice on my character's actions, as I don't know if what I'm guessing the option is leading to is actually what said option represents.

You do have information, and you do know what is being said. The issue is that you don't know the literal word-for-word content of what is being said, and we're discussing whether this is an issue or not.

Simply put, paraphrases cannot be reverse engineered, thus they fail.

What do you mean? You can certainly work backwards from a paraphrase to the full line. The issue is how accurate you have to be... but if the only acceptable ratio is 100%, then that's like saying reality cannot be reverse engineering (and it certainly can; all of science works toward that). 

[In Exile]

DuskWarden wrote...
I prefer silent, although I'm OK with voiced so long as there's no paraphrasing involved. I like to know what my character is going to say before they say it. If for some reason Bioware feel the majority of their audience do not want to read a few lines of dialogue, they could at least put a little pop up box with what the actual line says when you hover over it. That way people who just want to skip dialogue, or prefer a surprise when their character speaks or something like that, can have that, and those of us who prefer to know what we are going to say before we say it can also have that.

It's not about being surprised. It's about not having to read something twice, in a way that takes away enjoyment from the dialogue. If you like VO, hearing the VO is a positive. But hearing something read back that you just read isn't. The paraphrase (in principle) keeps the line fresh because you both know what is being said but not how exactly it will be said. The problem is Bioware writes bad paraphrases by not including some parts of the spoken line in the paraphrase. 

Here's an example:

At the end of the Escape from Lothering prologue, someone could pass away. What we have is this:

P; He won't be alone.
L: At least father will have company now.

But if we had:

P: Father won't be alone.
L: At least father will have company now.

Suddenly the whole line makes sense. 

[FieryDove]

I just don’t understand people who would prefer not knowing what their character will say/do in conversations. It’s the only thing left pretty much that let’s them still be (somewhat) your character.

/boggle

Modifié par FieryDove, 29 juillet 2011 - 02:56 .

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Simply put, paraphrases cannot be reverse engineered, thus they fail.

What do you mean? You can certainly work backwards from a paraphrase to the full line. The issue is how accurate you have to be... but if the only acceptable ratio is 100%, then that's like saying reality cannot be reverse engineering (and it certainly can; all of science works toward that). 

A 51% rate of success would be enough for me. I haven't seen it happen yet.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...

A 51% rate of success would be enough for me. I haven't seen it happen yet.

Well, my success rate is much better than that, so I have to ask, what do you look for in trying to predict the paraphrase? 

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
A 51% rate of success would be enough for me. I haven't seen it happen yet.

Well, my success rate is much better than that, so I have to ask, what do you look for in trying to predict the paraphrase?

That's the thing: The paraphrase gives nothing to lead into what's actually being said. And more importantly, whitheld.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
That's the thing: The paraphrase gives nothing to lead into what's actually being said. And more importantly, whitheld.

I'll give you an example of how I work through the paraphrase by posting a play-by-play description of a few dialogue choices. 

[In Exile]

With Anslo:

"Are you... the one that mercenary told me about? The one looking for work?"

D: That's me.
J: Expecting someone else?
A: Depends on the work.

My character is polite and friendly, jokes with his friends, and responds to threats without hesitation. Anslo is a work contact, so the basic approach is friendly.

I know the tone is diplomatic, and that Hawke will introduce himself. He will say something along the lines of "Yes, I am Hawke/The one looking for work/The one sent to you."

He says: "I use to work with the red iron, if that's what you mean."

That matches up well with my third expectation.

Next, we have "The men who were supposed to deliver it decided not to, if you retrieve my property, I could reward you handsomely...?"

Hawke can ask :"What kind of property?" which I expect is something along the lines of "What is this thing, what do you want me to do to, what am I going to have to retrieve?"

He says: "Just what did these men steal?"

That came from out of the blue. Goes right back to Bioware's obsession with not using words in the paraphrase that are used in the spoken line.

Anlso goes through that, and then says "The goods are valuable, however. And illegal. And my client wants them very, very badly! You know how these templars can be."

Hawke can then say "So it's lyrium?" Since the diplomatic tone is my dominant tone, looking only at the line I expect Hawke to say something like "We're going to work for Lyrium smugglers/You want us to smuggle to the templars?" but we have to account for context (it follows from the previous line about stealing) so Hawke is probably going to say something like "You work for lyrium smugglers/you want us to smuggle to the templars?"

Hawke says: "You're smuggling lyrium to the templars?"

Not a bad fit, again. This time context was important.

Finally, Hawke can pick "I'll do it" "This better be worth it" or "Forget it". Since my Hawke (why would they make the name Hawke, so that I'm forced to write that?" is angling for coin, I am going for "this better be worth it," which I assume will mean "I will take the job, so long as you pay me well/so long as the coin is good."

Hawke: "Make it worth my time, and I will help you."

Once again, Hawke is saying the same thing.

[tfive24]

I don't think some of you get it. A mute button will not a solve a thing. If i could mute Hawke's voices, I would still be stuck with 3 options. So turning off the voice will not make a difference, the game design is the huge problem both sides are arguing about.

[Jakeul200493]

I prefer having a voiced protagonist, but I also prefer the ability to pick and choose your Origin Story like in Dragon Age: Origins. Don't get me wrong, Hawke is a good character, one whom I enjoyed playing as- more so than the Warden, but I think its nicer to have the choice.

Hopefully in Dragon Age 3, we will get a voiced, origin-choosable protagonist...

*cough* DALISH MAGE *cough*

[In Exile]

tfive24 wrote...

I don't think some of you get it. A mute button will not a solve a thing. If i could mute Hawke's voices, I would still be stuck with 3 options. So turning off the voice will not make a difference, the game design is the huge problem both sides are arguing about.

You were stuck with 3 options in DA:O too + questions, which in DA2 are the investigate options. That the DA2 dialogue wheel is more logical doesn't mean you have only 3 options. 

[Captain_Obvious]

tfive24 wrote...

I don't think some of you get it. A mute button will not a solve a thing. If i could mute Hawke's voices, I would still be stuck with 3 options. So turning off the voice will not make a difference, the game design is the huge problem both sides are arguing about.

I don't think you get it, either.  Agreed that turning off the voice won't solve your problem.  But it's a personal preference, and some of us are fine with the game design. 

[JEMEDAOME2]

Untill humanity creates the HoloDeck it's Voiced for me all the way I don't care wether you can chose what the main protagonist says or not but silent main characters are an absoulute no no for me