557 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

I just ran across a dialogue in Legacy that screams "silent protagonist". Here is what I mean:

Paraphrase "Waking?"
Spoken line "How could this Corypheus be sending people after me if he's asleep?"

As long as paraphrases are so totally unrelated to what is said, the voiced character is a terrible alternative. Improve the dialogue wheel or go back to silent protagonist.

The problem isn't the voice, it's the idiotic paraphrase.  If we had:

"He coordinates while asleep?"

It would work much better. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .

[In Exile]

Sareth Cousland wrote...
It is true that DA2 had no fewer options to choose from than DA:O. Yet it is also true that those were too often associated to a personality type (mostly diplomatic / sarcastic / rude or direct) instead of standing on their own. Add a little more subtlety to the dialogue wheel, get a good voice and get rid of the icons, and I'm all for a voiced protagonist.

You'd still have tone to the dialogue options. It's not as if that wasn't fixed. The tone icons simply let you know what the tone is, versus DA:O's mess of trying to guess the tone, or ME2's trouble of trying to figure out when Shepard is going to be funny renegade instead of murder rage renegade. 

[vallore]

Paraphrases… ugh; there is nothing more immersion braking.

In this regard DA2 paraphrases felt even worse than ME ones…and that despite the icons.

Consistently they would not allow me to know what my character was going to speak of next, and even of what frequently enough… sure, I could know his demeanor, but the paraphrase itself I frequently felt it was useful next to nothing.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...
It is true that DA2 had no fewer options to choose from than DA:O. Yet it is also true that those were too often associated to a personality type (mostly diplomatic / sarcastic / rude or direct) instead of standing on their own. Add a little more subtlety to the dialogue wheel, get a good voice and get rid of the icons, and I'm all for a voiced protagonist.

You'd still have tone to the dialogue options. It's not as if that wasn't fixed. The tone icons simply let you know what the tone is, versus DA:O's mess of trying to guess the tone, or ME2's trouble of trying to figure out when Shepard is going to be funny renegade instead of murder rage renegade.

Disregarding the debate of player agency and death of author when interpreting authored lines, with the system as is you've moved the mess of guessing tone to the mess of guessing content, which is arguably worse. While I cannot argument against your logic train (save for the fact that most of the time, the line goes for your third, and thus I assume you thought less likely, guess) in your specific example, I can see you've omitted (intentionally or not) a conversation in which the options are presented as a position taking statement (for which all paraphrases share the three arrows icons), for which tone icons serve absolutely no function and for which the need for precision is more necessary than on personality discerning conversations, which can be thrown in with a bit more liberty. The former also applies to action leading wheel choices (read: attack vs action vs star choices).
Two clear examples leap to mind: The "three arrow icon" paraphrase "I assume responsibility" (coming from Merril's personal quest), which I assumed would result in Hawke placing the blame of events on him actually results in him/her stating: "MERRIL TOTALLY DID IT, GUYS!". In the apostitute quest, when presented with a choice between "action" and "attack" icons, the action icon results in the murder knife engaging. I could dig for more examples, but that would require me to refresh my memory by replaying the game, and that is a prospect I dread.

Modifié par Xewaka, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

tfive24 wrote...

I don't think some of you get it. A mute button will not a solve a thing. If i could mute Hawke's voices, I would still be stuck with 3 options. So turning off the voice will not make a difference, the game design is the huge problem both sides are arguing about.

You were stuck with 3 options in DA:O too + questions, which in DA2 are the investigate options. That the DA2 dialogue wheel is more logical doesn't mean you have only 3 options. 

How is it more logical if I can't tell what is going to come out of my Hawke's mouth? I am confused....

[phaonica]

Xewaka wrote...
Two clear examples leap to mind: The "three arrow icon" paraphrase "I assume responsibility" (coming from Merril's personal quest), which I assumed would result in Hawke placing the blame of events on him actually results in him/her stating: "MERRIL TOTALLY DID IT, GUYS!". In the apostitute quest, when presented with a choice between "action" and "attack" icons, the action icon results in the murder knife engaging. I could dig for more examples, but that would require me to refresh my memory by replaying the game, and that is a prospect I dread.

Dalish Clan Confrontation Scene
To me, this sounds like an issue isn't caused by paraphrases per se, but by unclear paraphrases. If the line was something like "We didn't intend for this to happen." or "This will never happen again." the resulting voiced lines, to me, might have been more expected.

[vallore]

phaonica wrote...



Dalish Clan Confrontation Scene
To me, this sounds like an issue isn't caused by paraphrases per se, but by unclear paraphrases. If the line was something like "We didn't intend for this to happen." or "This will never happen again." the resulting voiced lines, to me, might have been more expected.

Is it possible to make a paraphrase work?

Sure, but it would require a lot of work to make them clear through the entire game, as this wasn't an isolated problem. As it is, it is probably easier to simply allow the access to the actual phrases, to anyone who so desire, while maintaining the paraphrases themselves. There were several hypothesis of how to do that, thrown around months ago.(right cliking, using clickable icons, or just keeping the mouse over the paraphrase during a user defined time to see the phrase were the options I remember).

Modifié par vallore, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

There are two problems.

The paraphrases, if they are not clear (and we have yet to see a game with clear paraphrases, so clarity might actually be impossible), make it very difficult to choose an option that will produce behaviour that is not character-breaking.

The voice fixes each line with a specific delivery and tone, thus dramatically reducing the amount of control the player has over his character's behaviour.

The two in combination - certainly in DA2 - also encourage design such as spontaneous comments from the PC, over which the player has no control. For example, right after being encouraged by Anders to "downplay the blood magic angle", Hawke - without my input - declares to Cullen that the Templars have been infiltrated by blood mages. What? Why would Hawke do that? That's insane.

But because the designers are accustomed to writing sequences without player input, these sorts of egregious failures do occur.

If nothing else, BioWare needs some genuine RPers on their QA staff.

[Sylvius the Mad]

vallore wrote...

In this regard DA2 paraphrases felt even worse than ME ones…and that despite the icons.

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

It's often not clear in DA2 whether I'm choosing among options that all basically say the same thing, but with different tones, or among options which are substantively different.  And that creates a further problem that each substantively different option is limited to just one tone.

The paraphrase-voice combination is a massive problem, and it needs to go away.

[Eurhetemec]

vallore wrote...

Is it possible to make a paraphrase work?

Sure, but it would require a lot of work to make them clear through the entire game, as this wasn't an isolated problem. As it is, it is probably easier to simply allow the access to the actual phrases, to anyone who so desire, while maintaining the paraphrases themselves. There were several hypothesis of how to do that, thrown around months ago.(right cliking, using clickable icons, or just keeping the mouse over the paraphrase during a user defined time to see the phrase were the options I remember).

Given that Hawke often says several lines or dialogue, or says something, is responded to, and says another thing without you making another choice, none of the suggestions I've seen were remotely practical, unless BioWare want to make NewDAHero unable to respond to things and so on, which would really limit writing.

Paraphrases never seemed to be a real problem in ME2 and not much of one in ME1, despite exaggerated claims some people made, so perhaps the DA team were just inexperienced at it?

I know that in DA2, I had a ton of times where Hawke said something which was not just not what I expected, but actually somewhat went against what I intended, but in ME2, which I've played through more than six times, that's literally never happened. I do mean never. Slight surprises? Sure, but never "Omg that's the opposite!" stuff like DA2 had a few times.

So I think they just need to get better at it, and they probably already have. If not, they can get the ME people to give them some lessons.

I don't think losing the icons entirely would help, but what would help is losing the seeming hard-requirement for there to be three icons:

1) Polite
2) Charming/Sarcastic.
3) Angry/Judging

Some conversations don't need any anger or judgement in them, and others don't have time for politeness or space for sarcasm - indeed some of the sarcastic options in DA2 seemed extremely forced and inappropriate - though some other ones were absolutely hilarious.

I mean, DA2 kind of had this in a few places, but it was usually two decision swirlies and a angry or attack icon. They could mix it up a bit more.

[Eurhetemec]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

It's often not clear in DA2 whether I'm choosing among options that all basically say the same thing, but with different tones, or among options which are substantively different.  And that creates a further problem that each substantively different option is limited to just one tone.

Wow, first time for everything - I agree with Sylvius on this upper part. There was definitely a confusion between these two things, and it left you guessing in a way that, for example, Mass Effect doesn't.

The paraphrase-voice combination is a massive problem, and it needs to go away.

I don't agree here, but fair enough.

[FieryDove]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The paraphrase-voice combination is a massive problem, and it needs to go away.

^This x1 million.


For the people claiming only DA2 had problems I call bullhocky. ME games had it and the voice problem was even worse in one spot where I had to stop playing the game…for a long time.

ME2 - Femshep just trying to talk to Jacob go ahead try it. Go on, ooze over to that table and have a couple of talks with him. Dare ya. Solution for me? If playing Femshep only talk to Jacob for LM. Which was sad, he was a nice squad mate that I liked.

Then we have other aspects of voice. Some people dislike either the male or female voice to the point they couldn’t play the game or at least the gender they wanted. (Same goes for DA2 but not as many I don’t think)

In ME1/2 I loved Hale’s paragon style and Meer’s renegade. But I could not play the opposite, it sounded…wrong? Forced? Unnatural/unconvincing?

Now bringing it back to DA2 If playing a sarcastic/aggressive Hawke and exploring the left side of the wheel our personality doesn’t follow, we turn…diplomatic all of the sudden?

Bah on it all. Wheel is ebil and nothing can change my mind at this point.
How about a nice octagon?

Modifié par FieryDove, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[Eurhetemec]

FieryDove wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The paraphrase-voice combination is a massive problem, and it needs to go away.

^This x1 million.


For the people claiming only DA2 had problems I call bullhocky. ME games had it and the voice problem was even worse in one spot where I had to stop playing the game…for a long time.

ME2 - Femshep just trying to talk to Jacob go ahead try it. Go on, ooze over to that table and have a couple of talks with him. Dare ya. Solution for me? If playing Femshep only talk to Jacob for LM. Which was sad, he was a nice squad mate that I liked.

Then we have other aspects of voice. Some people dislike either the male or female voice to the point they couldn’t play the game or at least the gender they wanted. (Same goes for DA2 but not as many I don’t think)

In ME1/2 I loved Hale’s paragon style and Meer’s renegade. But I could not play the opposite, it sounded…wrong? Forced? Unnatural/unconvincing?

Now bringing it back to DA2 If playing a sarcastic/aggressive Hawke and exploring the left side of the wheel our personality doesn’t follow, we turn…diplomatic all of the sudden?

Bah on it all. Wheel is ebil and nothing can change my mind at this point.
How about a nice octagon?

This is just nonsense, Fiery, I'm sorry it is.

I've finished ME2 with FemShep 4 times. In none of them has FemShep said anything wrong to Jacob. None.

I mean, maybe I'm a just an amazing genius or something, but I kind of doubt it. Or maybe that it's just that I read the paraphrases before picking one. It's not like FemShep doesn't SOUND like she wants to do Jacob hardcore right there and then (she does - I'm reminded of Zap Brannigan every time lol), but she does not say things that you didn't mean her to.

Also, where, come on, where in ME did you "have to stop" playing the game? Because I call bollocks on that.

Both the DA games had bigger problems than ME2 in this regard - DA:O had several times where I picked what seemed to me like a fairly reasonable thing to say, and an NPC reacted like I'd told him about the sexy time I spent with his mother or something. As people have said, DA:O failed to indicate tone. DA2 has bigger problems than ME2 by miles, too, and I defy you to claim otherwise. Leave FemShep vs. Jacob out of it, because it's only on the Normandy when he's in the armory that that's a problem - she doesn't treat him like that the rest of the time, and that was more due to bad voice directing than problems with the Wheel.

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:40 .

[Xewaka]

Eurhetemec wrote...
I mean, maybe I'm a just an amazing genius or something, but I kind of doubt it. Or maybe that it's just that I read the paraphrases before picking one. It's not like FemShep doesn't SOUND like she wants to do Jacob hardcore right there and then (she does - I'm reminded of Zap Brannigan every time lol), but she does not say things that you didn't mean her to.

There is a way in the Horizon conversation with the VS that has Shepard avoid mentioning any affiliance with Cerberus (the VS brings up the situation it if Shepard doesn't). Reading paraphrases only, I would like to know how many tries does obtaining this result takes for you.

[vallore]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

vallore wrote...

In this regard DA2 paraphrases felt even worse than ME ones…and that despite the icons.

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

It's often not clear in DA2 whether I'm choosing among options that all basically say the same thing, but with different tones, or among options which are substantively different.  And that creates a further problem that each substantively different option is limited to just one tone.

The paraphrase-voice combination is a massive problem, and it needs to go away.

I think the extra problem there resulted, as you pointed, of the excessive confidence the writers deposited in the icons to clarify the phrase, which resulted in them not giving enough attention to the paraphrases, but also in the nature of the stories: ME story and Shepard is clearly more focused than DA2 and Hawke, resulting in less possible variables to the player to consider, given context.

[vallore]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Given that Hawke often says several lines or dialogue, or says something, is responded to, and says another thing without you making another choice, none of the suggestions I've seen were remotely practical, unless BioWare want to make NewDAHero unable to respond to things and so on, which would really limit writing.

I desagree. You see, An RPG results ultimately not just from the work of the writer, but also of the input of the player. No matter how interesting the ideas of the writer may be about how a given character should be played, the decision of how to play the character should be the purview of the player.

This is not a real limitation to the writer, as it was never really his ”job” to play the character. On the contrary; the limitation to the writing results of the very fact we are speaking of RPGs, and not, say, a written romance. In a RPG, “assuming direct control” of a player’s character is a very bad idea, no matter what, as few things can damage more immersion than that.

A good example of how this is a bad idea is the awkward moment s that can result with the implementation of the dominant personality, with Hawk taking totally incongruent attitudes with the personality developed by the player. Nothing is gained but a lot is lost.

Paraphrases never seemed to be a real problem in ME2 and not much of one in ME1, despite exaggerated claims some people made, so perhaps the DA team were just inexperienced at it?

I know that in DA2, I had a ton of times where Hawke said something which was not just not what I expected, but actually somewhat went against what I intended, but in ME2, which I've played through more than six times, that's literally never happened. I do mean never. Slight surprises? Sure, but never "Omg that's the opposite!" stuff like DA2 had a few times.

I just posted my thoughts about this very same issue in a post above, in answer to Sylvius:
Basically, I believe it was the result of excessive confidence in the role of the icons plus the difernt nature of both ME versus DA2 and Shepard versus Hawke.
One is much more focused in goals and personality than the other, due to the nature of the story.

don't think losing the icons entirely would help, but what would help is losing the seeming hard-requirement for there to be three icons:

1) Polite
2) Charming/Sarcastic.
3) Angry/Judging

Some conversations don't need any anger or judgement in them, and others don't have time for politeness or space for sarcasm - indeed some of the sarcastic options in DA2 seemed extremely forced and inappropriate - though some other ones were absolutely hilarious.

I mean, DA2 kind of had this in a few places, but it was usually two decision swirlies and a angry or attack icon. They could mix it up a bit more.

Basiacally I would agree; the icons, per se were a good idea, imo, specially with the introduction of VA. But should never be trusted the main role of clarifying what is going to be said: they should be an aid, not the main tool.

[Morroian]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

I'm not sure but I think the issue of paraphrasing on DA2 may relate to the way they tried to implement it. From the dev feedback here the paraphrase was not written as a summary of the line but as the first phrase of the line but which Hawke doesn't say. I don't know why they would take this approach because its not really intuitive, the player expects the paraphrase to be a summary of what Hawke is going to say. If this was their approach they need to rethink it.

[Atakuma]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

I'm not sure but I think the issue of paraphrasing on DA2 may relate to the way they tried to implement it. From the dev feedback here the paraphrase was not written as a summary of the line but as the first phrase of the line but which Hawke doesn't say. I don't know why they would take this approach because its not really intuitive, the player expects the paraphrase to be a summary of what Hawke is going to say. If this was their approach they need to rethink it.

Well now it makes sense why the paraphrasing is so bad, it's because they aren't really paraphrases at all.
If bioware actually paraphrased properly, instead of doing whatever the hell they are doing now, then I don't think it would be as much of an issue.

[vallore]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think the clarity of the paraphrases suffered because the writers were aware that there would be icons.

I'm not sure but I think the issue of paraphrasing on DA2 may relate to the way they tried to implement it. From the dev feedback here the paraphrase was not written as a summary of the line but as the first phrase of the line but which Hawke doesn't say. I don't know why they would take this approach because its not really intuitive, the player expects the paraphrase to be a summary of what Hawke is going to say. If this was their approach they need to rethink it.

Interesting.

That reminds me of Alpha Protocol: If I remember correctly, the game only allowed us to choose the mood of the answer, without further information about it… needless to say, I never finished that game.

[TransientNomad]

What it comes down in regards of silent vs. voiced protagonists is immersion. In a book, you can add your own voice to the characters freely, limited by your own imagination. Thats great. In SOME games it works, like Oblivion, Fallout, etc. But it does NOT work for more theatrical games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect.

Take Fallout for example. Story and character development is never the focal point, and the expierience is far different than games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. Fallout is more about exploration, stat building, etc. Thats not to say there is no overarching story or character development that goes on with Fallout or Oblivion, its just that it is not a focal point. And this is coming from someone who (GASP!!) loves both types games and considers both to be great RPGs (DOUBLE GASP!!)

Now lets look at Dragon Age Origins, in particular the Landsmeet scene. You have Loghain give a rousing speech, that is awe aspiring to many fans. Then your character saunters in to stand in stark opposition to Loghain and then... nothing. He/she sits there with a blank expression on their face, even looking somewhat confused. Sure you as the player know they are debating, if only because you see and hear Loghain reacting. It does not work.


People will argue its like reading a book, you lend your own voice to the character to "fill in the blanks." But Dragon Age Origins still played closer to a movie than a book. Imagine for a moment Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring (The movie, not the book). Now imagine whenever Frodo went speak, his expression went blank, his lips didn't move, subtitles appeared below him to let the audience know what he was "saying", and the other characters didn't react for a moment to give the audience time to read it over. It would be ridiculous. That is exactly how Dragon Age Origins played out the entire time.

The other issue here is the dialogue wheel/paraphrase, which I can't help but find a disheartening/stupid argument. The argument is basically this, "The paraphrases are not clear enough so I do not know what my character will say, thus this leads to my character saying things I did not intend to say, or do things I did not intend to do."

Frankly, if you can't figure out the gist of what your character will say next in regards to the paraphrase you either have no reading comprehension or lack the mental capabilities to make a educated guess or (and this is the most common reason [I hope]) are grasping at another reason to dislike Dragon Age 2 because they decided months before they played the game they were not going to like it.

I don't mean to be mean, or insulting, but really if you seriously say you have had a recurring problem in which you can't figure out the paraphrase, its on you. I am no genius, college educated, but I have RARELY had a problem figuring out what was going to be said. In truth, in ME1 I had one instance in which Shep said something I didn't intend, in ME2 another, and in DA2 I had one (and I have played each at least five times through). But one choice amidst the hundreds did not ruin the games at all.

Also, paraphrases work better than the full sentence responses for another reason as well. Lets go back to Origins in particular the Landsmeet. With every dialogue choice, you have to read four to six sentences. This effectively takes you out of the high intensity situation you were into in order to read a paragraph of possible responses. With the dialogue wheel/paraphrase you get the gist of your possible responses in five seconds as opposed to a minute to three minutes.

In fact I would love to see Bioware take a cue from Obsidian and add a time restriction to response al la Alpha Protocol, giving players a few moments to decide how to respond to a situation before forcing one.

[Sutekh]

TransientNomad wrote...

And this is coming from someone who (GASP!!) loves both types games and considers both to be great RPGs (DOUBLE GASP!!)

Well, keep gasping because I'm with you there, gasping and loving both types too. And I agree that Silent works well in open-box games such as Oblivion. Actually, I just can't imagine my Oblivion PCs talking (or future Skyrim ones, for that matter).

Now lets look at Dragon Age Origins, in particular the Landsmeet scene. You have Loghain give a rousing speech, that is awe aspiring to many fans. Then your character saunters in to stand in stark opposition to Loghain and then... nothing. He/she sits there with a blank expression on their face, even looking somewhat confused. Sure you as the player know they are debating, if only because you see and hear Loghain reacting. It does not work.

To be fair, the Warden's entrance itself was very good, with Loghain's puppeteer line, people backing off and the Warden looking around with incredible assurance, and then... it all went flat after Loghain's speech because of his/her silence and impassivity. Expressions, or lack thereof, were as much responsible as lack of voice, tbh.

Frankly, if you can't figure out the gist of what your character will say next in regards to the paraphrase you either have no reading comprehension or lack the mental capabilities to make a educated guess or (and this is the most common reason [I hope]) are grasping at another reason to dislike Dragon Age 2 because they decided months before they played the game they were not going to like it.

This, I beg to differ, and very much so. I never had real problems with paraphrase, maybe because I'm more of an "instinctive" player, but I'm replaying the game now and I pay special attention to these sort of things (because of this very discussion), and I did notice spots where paraphrases can be a problem and lead to misunderstanding. It's a matter of interpretation, really, and has nothing to do with the reader's level of comprehension. I had similar problems in DAO due to lack of voice and tone.

In fact I would love to see Bioware take a cue from Obsidian and add a time restriction to response al la Alpha Protocol, giving players a few moments to decide how to respond to a situation before forcing one.

I'd hate that. They had moments in the Witcher 2 where the dialog was timed and I absolutely hated it. I'm ESL, and I sometimes take longer to read just to make sure I don't misinterpret something, Read several times, even. Not everyone reads at the same pace for various reasons, so a test of understanding capacities and reaction time in a game dialog isn't a good or fair thing, IMHO. When I want timed things, I play Tomb Raider

[vallore]

TransientNomad wrote...

<snip>

Oh by the love of the maker… seriously.

I suppose it didn’t occur to you that it is usually possible to roleplay a bioware game in different levels of dept, did it? <_<

Modifié par vallore, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[Tirfan]

TransientNomad wrote...

Frankly, if you can't figure out the gist of what your character will say next in regards to the paraphrase you either have no reading comprehension or lack the mental capabilities to make a educated guess or (and this is the most common reason [I hope]) are grasping at another reason to dislike Dragon Age 2 because they decided months before they played the game they were not going to like it.

I don't mean to be mean, or insulting, but really if you seriously say you have had a recurring problem in which you can't figure out the paraphrase, its on you. I am no genius, college educated, but I have RARELY had a problem figuring out what was going to be said. In truth, in ME1 I had one instance in which Shep said something I didn't intend, in ME2 another, and in DA2 I had one (and I have played each at least five times through). But one choice amidst the hundreds did not ruin the games at all.

Yet you do insult my reading comprehension. There have been examples of ridiculous paraphrases even on this thread. 

I did not also decide months before that I am going to hate the game.
I came to the game with a positive attitude, I thought, that perhaps, the VO would not be horrible - it had made RP impossible in Mass Effect for me, but perhaps it would work in DA2?

It did not work. I might and do agree on many points of criticism of silent protagonist on intellectual level.
However, VO has an certain effect on me, and I can not change that - to be honest, I don't care nor do I mind about the points that I may agree on when I'm playing - I barely notice them, if I notice them at all.