557 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirfan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The trouble is, if Hawke isn't my character then I just don't play the game.  Hawke needs to be my character for to have any interest in him.

As such, I reload a lot.  A LOT.  Because that's the only way to minimise contradictions.

With a full-text system like DAO, I could minimise contradictions with only a handful of reloads across the entire game.  But DA2 requires several reloads per hour of gameplay, and that can't be something BioWare thinks is acceptable.

Well, prepare to be vastly disappointed, it gets worse, it gets a lot worse than that, act1 was bearable with the constant reloading... in act II if you want to play a character that has emotions, cares about something and does not like killing... you are going to get boatloads of conradictions, and even ones that you can't get over by just reloading. That was what made me completely give up and just forget about trying to play my character and I just rolled with the Biowares Purple Garret Hawke.

[nicethugbert]

Voiced is alive. Silent is dead. Silent protagonist lacks immersion because it is unnatural. I put up with it all these years just like I put up with low polygon graphics. The lack of voiced characters in a cinematic game is even more bizzarre, like a sandwich without bread. It's like fake autism.  It's like a mime that doesn't mime or a mentally mute telepath.

And, I don't need my character to be me or even my character.  I can play a game as an interactive movie where I explore it as an observer, a meddling one perhaps.

I am able to consider Path of Evil and The Maimed Gods Saga to be two of the best, if not the best, NWN2 modules despite the fact that I am neither religious or evil becuase those modules are such great vehicles of exploration as a meddiling observer.  I become engrossed in the act of observing and meddling.  That is how I interact with the game and how I manage to ignore the fact that these game worlds are all lame as far as worlds are concerned and that the technology for virtual worlds is lacking.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 31 juillet 2011 - 01:10 .

[Chuvvy]

How about they just add in an option? If you want to play a voiced PC you can but if you don't, you don't have to. Doesn't seem like it'd be that much work, it'd just require some tweaks to the dialog system, probably going back to the DAO sentence list.

[Tirfan]

Slidell505 wrote...

How about they just add in an option? If you want to play a voiced PC you can but if you don't, you don't have to. Doesn't seem like it'd be that much work, it'd just require some tweaks to the dialog system, probably going back to the DAO sentence list.

That has been suggested before - it is an compromise, there are certain differences in writing voiced characters/un-voiced characters, there are people who can elaborate this better than I. As far as compromises go - it is an acceptable one IMO, there might be some complications.. but well, I think I would rather have those complications rather than voiced PC.

[Huntress]

Slidell505 wrote...

How about they just add in an option? If you want to play a voiced PC you can but if you don't, you don't have to. Doesn't seem like it'd be that much work, it'd just require some tweaks to the dialog system, probably going back to the DAO sentence list.

What about if everyone who wants a mute character turn the off the volume every time the main character start talking?
Is less difficult and they can see first hand if it make any sense seen a character smiling, talking but without any sounds coming out of the mouth. The volume can be on after that.

[cloud39472]

i havent read all this forum cos i couldnt be bothered seems to long so this has probably already been said but..... i dont see any point in having a character that doesnt talk and just stares blankly at you but apparently is still talking to you somehow like s/hes talking through your mind if i was one of the companions i would be pretty scared. so i would definitely rather have a voiced character

Modifié par cloud39472, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[Huntress]

Tirfan wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

How about they just add in an option? If you want to play a voiced PC you can but if you don't, you don't have to. Doesn't seem like it'd be that much work, it'd just require some tweaks to the dialog system, probably going back to the DAO sentence list.

That has been suggested before - it is an compromise, there are certain differences in writing voiced characters/un-voiced characters, there are people who can elaborate this better than I. As far as compromises go - it is an acceptable one IMO, there might be some complications.. but well, I think I would rather have those complications rather than voiced PC.

I don't like to get personal, but read you're posts, the moment you see any complications you'll be here complaining about it, you'll inlight us about how much you have paid for the game to have so many complications, stop lieying to you'rself. If the voice bother you turn off the volume, problem solve.

About having a pacifist character in Kirkwall it will be death sentence, why? The city is over run by smuglers, slavers and crazy blood-mages, if you're character do not defend from them.. it dies. I don't get it this so called  real rpg players, they come up with the most stupid coments or ideas.

[MonkeyLungs]

A non voice acted character is not mute.

The Warden was NOT mute. You just have no imagination. Of the seven complete playthroughs I have of Origins I never once thought to myself 'my character is a mute and can't communicate.' Each Warden had a unique voice and personality and I didn't need Bioware to spell out every detail of MY OWN F***ING CHARACTER FOR ME.

It was very very obvious that you (as The Warden) were talking to your comrades and to other people .. you just didn't hear your own voice coming from the tv screen/pc monitor.

The people who lack imagination, love streamlining, can't play games without minimaps and quest compasses will ALWAYS win the day though because you are the horde of mass populace. Its why NSync and Britney Spears were popular and why people believe what the news tells them.

Modifié par MonkeyLungs, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:51 .

[TEWR]

the toggle for voice wouldn't be enough. That's just like slapping a tiny bandaid on a huge wound.

You'd need a toggle for voice and for animations that caused it to focus on the back of the character's head so the wound could start to heal. It wouldn't be enough, but it's a start. It's like sewing up the wound. You do too much, you'll open the wound up again. But those stitches will help the wound to heal.

Granted, I couldn't care less if they didn't add a toggle and we had voiced protagonists all the time. I enjoy voiced protagonists. It enhances my roleplaying.

By no means though should people take this to mean that I can't roleplay my Wardens. I can. Rather well in fact. I just prefer voiced protagonists.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[Huntress]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

A non voice acted character is not mute.

The Warden was NOT mute. You just have no imagination. Of the seven complete playthroughs I have of Origins I never once thought to myself 'my character is a mute and can't communicate.' Each Warden had a unique voice and personality and I didn't need Bioware to spell out every detail of MY OWN F***ING CHARACTER FOR ME.

It was very very obvious that you (as The Warden) were talking to your comrades and to other people .. you just didn't hear your own voice coming from the tv screen/pc monitor.

The people who lack imagination, love streamlining, can't play games without minimaps and quest compasses will ALWAYS win the day though because you are the horde of mass populace. Its why NSync and Britney Spears were popular and why people believe what the news tells them.

You never hear the voice, never see it smile, never see it sad, it never came out with a coment, never banter with the party, should I continue?
I do like the warden but saying that /stare face is better than voiced hawke is a lie, here, there, anywere.
Oh the game got streamling not by players without imagination, was players that do not like long walks in the fade, deeproads, ect.

[thegoldfinch]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

A non voice acted character is not mute.

The Warden was NOT mute. You just have no imagination. Of the seven complete playthroughs I have of Origins I never once thought to myself  'my character is a mute and can't communicate.' Each Warden had a unique voice and personality and I didn't need Bioware to spell out every  detail of MY OWN F***ING CHARACTER FOR ME.

It was very very  obvious that you (as The Warden) were talking to your comrades and to  other people .. you just didn't hear your own voice coming from the tv  screen/pc monitor.

The people who lack imagination, love  streamlining, can't play games without minimaps and quest compasses will ALWAYS win the day though because you are the horde of mass populace.  Its why NSync and Britney Spears were popular and why people believe what the news tells them.

Woah, hoss. Cool it down a notch.

I don't think it's really an issue of them wanting to define your character or the  character being thought of as some kind of autistic mute. It's more about trying to keep up with the times. As others have said, and I have to agree, having a  silent protagonist in what is essentially a cinematic game just doesn't quite work. And cinematic games sell because they're fun (to many), they are more engaging (to many), and, yeah, the mass populace likes them. They have voted with their dollar or euro or what have you. Being bitter won't change that. BioWare is still a company and it still needs to make money to flourish. They can't cater to the whims of old conventions forever and expect to grow.

If my memory isn't failing me, some developers said before the game was released that this voiced protagonist was something of an experiment. I don't blame them for trying. It offers a lot more freedom with what you can portray in a scene. Now that I've tried it, I don't want to go back to the silent, unreactive puppet of a PC. I still love my Wardens, but watching the game unfold feels wooden in comparison to what can be achieved with a voice. You can say I don't have any imagination but I disagree. I just want to see drama! and I can't have real, impactful drama! with a protagonist who wears the mask for the entirety of the game. And I want to visually see it unfold - not read about it in some fan fiction. It's much more exciting and fun than imagining what could have been or what they were trying to accomplish.

(ps, nysnc? omg sooo 1999.)

Modifié par pixieface, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:49 .

[Tirfan]

Huntress wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

How about they just add in an option? If you want to play a voiced PC you can but if you don't, you don't have to. Doesn't seem like it'd be that much work, it'd just require some tweaks to the dialog system, probably going back to the DAO sentence list.

That has been suggested before - it is an compromise, there are certain differences in writing voiced characters/un-voiced characters, there are people who can elaborate this better than I. As far as compromises go - it is an acceptable one IMO, there might be some complications.. but well, I think I would rather have those complications rather than voiced PC.

I don't like to get personal, but read you're posts, the moment you see any complications you'll be here complaining about it, you'll inlight us about how much you have paid for the game to have so many complications, stop lieying to you'rself. If the voice bother you turn off the volume, problem solve.

About having a pacifist character in Kirkwall it will be death sentence, why? The city is over run by smuglers, slavers and crazy blood-mages, if you're character do not defend from them.. it dies. I don't get it this so called  real rpg players, they come up with the most stupid coments or ideas.

Oh for ffs.

Do I nitpick on every flaw of DA2? Yes. Did I nitpick over every flaw of DA:O? No, even though it has its fair share of them. Why, you may ask, Because on the fundamental level, the game was very enjoyable, thanks to certain aspects of it. DA2 isn't, I populate this thread for example, because I happen to feel strongly about the subject.

I have never wanted to play a pacifist - I have wanted and voiced it, to play a character that DOES NOT LIKE killing, (but will do it if necessary, but will always avoid unecessary slaughter). This, for example, is impossible in DA2.

@TEWR: oh yeah, forgot the animations - thanks for pointing out them, it is a pretty big band-aid but yeah, it is a first step - perhaps I could like the voicing if it was at a point where the voice was as customizable as the face. aand well, the paraphrases would need to be banished, or they should be good and there should be the option to see the full line.

Modifié par Tirfan, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:14 .

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the toggle for voice wouldn't be enough. That's just like slapping a tiny bandaid on a huge wound.

You'd need a toggle for voice and for animations that caused it to focus on the back of the character's head so the wound could start to heal. It wouldn't be enough, but it's a start. It's like sewing up the wound. You do too much, you'll open the wound up again. But those stitches will help the wound to heal.

Granted, I couldn't care less if they didn't add a toggle and we had voiced protagonists all the time. I enjoy voiced protagonists. It enhances my roleplaying.

By no means though should people take this to mean that I can't roleplay my Wardens. I can. Rather well in fact. I just prefer voiced protagonists.

How would you feel if you didn't like the voice(s) offered to you

Imagine it.

Main protagonist of FF13 - Lightning.

What's that, her voice has been swapped with Vanille's, so every five seconds your character is orgasming?

Modifié par alex90c, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[Masako52]

I disagree that silent protagonists are dead. Look at Link from Legend of Zelda... there would be an uproar if he was given dialogue in a game!

I tend to prefer silent but also enjoy voiced. The thing about Hawke is that with a voice, s/he felt like a distinct character no matter what options you chose. As opposed to Origins, where every character is essentially unique and from your own imagination. Hawke you could influence, but you weren't really Hawke.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, though. I enjoyed DA2 and Hawke. But it is different, is all. With a voiced character I think it would be hard to have the freedom that DAO had with character creation.

[Sutekh]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

A non voice acted character is not mute.

The Warden was NOT mute. You just have no imagination. Of the seven complete playthroughs I have of Origins I never once thought to myself 'my character is a mute and can't communicate.' Each Warden had a unique voice and personality and I didn't need Bioware to spell out every detail of MY OWN F***ING CHARACTER FOR ME.

It was very very obvious that you (as The Warden) were talking to your comrades and to other people .. you just didn't hear your own voice coming from the tv screen/pc monitor.

The people who lack imagination, love streamlining, can't play games without minimaps and quest compasses will ALWAYS win the day though because you are the horde of mass populace. Its why NSync and Britney Spears were popular and why people believe what the news tells them.

Oh, ffs, not this again.

Although I admit you raised the bar here, compared to the bland and dull "you have no imagination" argument. Now, my liking VA means I love streamlining, listen to Britney Spears, believe what the news tells me, and belong with a horde of mass populace (ooooh, nice one). Care to tell me what's my favorite dish, while you're at it?

My imagination is just fine. I won't expand on "I need a voice to explain the character to me" bit, because I've already did several times in this very thread, and I'm tired of justifying my own bloody preference. Or to have to show some sort of credentials in regard to my roleplaying history.

And yes, whether you like it or not, the Warden looks like a telepathic emotionless mute in cinematics, to me.

What was going on in your Warden's head when they stood there, silent, staring blankly at the horizon, waiting for Alistair or Anora to be done with the motivation speech before the Battle of Denerim? A speech they should have performed themselves. (Not mentioning that "For Fereldeeeeeen" means little to Dwarven or Dalish Wardens, but that's another story).

Or during some romance dialogs, when the Warden is told "no love between us", and they just remain there, impassive, no matter how they really feel. Two of mine were absolutely heartbroken; it sure didn't show (I commend them on their stoicism, though).

Or during the Joining scene in Awakening, when Silent became so problematic they had to actually break the lore (Varel, a civilian, doing the Joining? Honestly.) It would have been so much more powerful to have your Warden doing it (and logical). A real symbol of his new status. But no, due to technical difficulties, and in total disregard of tradition, the Warden-Commander isn't authorized to perform Joinings. Thanks for your comprehension.

All these annoy me, break my Sacred Immersion, for the very reason that I love my Wardens and imagine them, their personality, their thoughts, their untold background, and it gets flattened by the expressionless silence. 

And so much for keeping it friendly, btw. 

[vallore]

pixieface wrote...

I don't think it's really an issue of them wanting to define your character or the  character being thought of as some kind of autistic mute. It's more about trying to keep up with the times. As others have said, and I have to agree, having a  silent protagonist in what is essentially a cinematic game just doesn't quite work. And cinematic games sell because they're fun (to many), they are more engaging (to many), and, yeah, the mass populace likes them. They have voted with their dollar or euro or what have you. Being bitter won't change that. BioWare is still a company and it still needs to make money to flourish. They can't cater to the whims of old conventions forever and expect to grow.

Imo, it actually worked, quite well, with Origins, and apparently many would agree, considering how successfully the game was, and how little negative reactions it created, (specially compared with DA2).

That said, if Bioware wants to go the full voice acting path they are in their right, and considering their focus on cinematic games is understandable…however I do believe that the way it is being implemented
actually restricts the enjoyment of the game to a narrower type of players than the silent character did, and I’m not just speaking of those that, by principle, dislike VA.

As such, while apparently targeting grater audiences, Bioware is actually willingly eroding the fringes of their core audience, imo.

As a (almost) final note, I would remember that people miss “those old conventions” you speak of, not because they were some kind of tradition,
easily dismissed as sutch, but because they allowed them greater enjoyment than the new and modern way of doing things. By discarding it, without finding solutions to mitigate their absence, customers that enjoyed them are being discouraged of buying the new products.

Finally, a point, to no one in particular: if kinect and it’s equivalents become successful we will likely have to say goodbye to VA characters sometime in the future; I can already see someone claiming that “VA fans ;are afraid of change,” or that, “this isn’t 2010 anymore.” :lol:

If my memory isn't failing me, some developers said before the game was released that this voiced protagonist was something of an experiment. I don't blame them for trying. It offers a lot more freedom with what you can portray in a scene. Now that I've tried it, I don't want to go back to the silent, unreactive puppet of a PC. I still love my Wardens, but watching the game unfold feels wooden in comparison to what can be achieved with a voice. You can say I don't have any imagination but I disagree. I just want to see drama! and I can't have real, impactful drama! with a protagonist who wears the mask for the entirety of the game. And I want to visually see it unfold - not read about it in some fan fiction. It's much more exciting and fun than imagining what could have been or what they were trying to accomplish.

(ps, nysnc? omg sooo 1999.)

I’m glad it worked for you, but I would point that the result was far from universal:

This new freedom of the creators resulted, in part, by taking freedom from the player.The new added drama may have made the game more movie like, but also reduced the player’s participation in the development of his own character, and that is not a good thing, imo. The result, as we can see by numerous threads here, is that a significant number of players became frustrated by the experience; their enjoyment was diminished, not increased.

[Huntress]

Tirfan wrote...

Oh for ffs.

Do I nitpick on every flaw of DA2? Yes. Did I nitpick over every flaw of DA:O? No, even though it has its fair share of them. Why, you may ask, Because on the fundamental level, the game was very enjoyable, thanks to certain aspects of it. DA2 isn't, I populate this thread for example, because I happen to feel strongly about the subject.

I have never wanted to play a pacifist - I have wanted and voiced it, to play a character that DOES NOT LIKE killing, (but will do it if necessary, but will always avoid unecessary slaughter). This, for example, is impossible in DA2.

@TEWR: oh yeah, forgot the animations - thanks for pointing out them, it is a pretty big band-aid but yeah, it is a first step - perhaps I could like the voicing if it was at a point where the voice was as customizable as the face. aand well, the paraphrases would need to be banished, or they should be good and there should be the option to see the full line.

Well if you only want to pic one game flaws over the millions of the others, thats you're choice but, it makes you looks like a lier, DAO is it a good game but still has flaws, to be fair you have to mention it or you looks rather silly.
I know DAO has flaws, I know that DA2 has flaws and I pont them out because they bother me, and I care a rat who agrees with me or not.
like I said before, voice is not bad at all, none of them, I play female because am female and I like the voice. Removing voice in a cinematic game is going to be horrible, I understand you want to hear the voices on you're head..then, please turn off the volume when the main character is talking, why do you want to FORCE MUTE CHARACTER on everyone? I hope DA don't go back to mute, is gonna be backward, instead of forward.

Again making a paragraph choices is not going to help a bit, point back to DAO, many players had problems reading it. Some find Alistair, zev hitting on them and have no clue of why, now with a BIG heart they have the same problem too.. is wierd they don't know what a heart means or how to read properly.

I think DA2 was a forward push with VO character, I like it alot more that wardens, I love DAO do not take me wrong but the feeling that a VO character gives, is way better that the warden, who never smile, never banter,  looked sad or mischievous* ( *playful, roguish,saucy, sly).

do I feel DAO and DA2 characters are mine? of course I create the characters and play with them until... I delete them.

Modifié par Huntress, 31 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Dubya75]

My vote definitely goes with the voiced protagonist.
This for me is one of the greatest steps forward in DA2 over Origins.

[phaonica]

Tirfan wrote...
That was what made me completely give up and just forget about trying to play my character and I just rolled with the Biowares Purple Garret Hawke.

I tried doing this, to not roleplay the character at all, just always pressed the purple option to see how Purple Hawke's story played out. After an hour and a half, I stopped playing. I *hated* playing that character. I felt no emotional connection to her at all. Admittedly, if I had played a Warden and just always picked the first dialog option, I probably would have felt just as little connection. However, for me, the lack of engagement with the character was in utterly no way improved by the character's being voiced.

[Tirfan]

Huntress wrote...

like I said before, voice is not bad at all, none of them, I play female because am female and I like the voice. Removing voice in a cinematic game is going to be horrible, I understand you want to hear the voices on you're head..then, please turn off the volume when the main character is talking, why do you want to FORCE MUTE CHARACTER on everyone? I hope DA don't go back to mute, is gonna be backward, instead of forward.

No. I hate both Hawkes voices - but it does not matter. And you disregard players with different approaches to games - I did not find the lack of voicing bad in DA:O, not a single bit (okay, there were something like 2 scenes where it got under my skin for a moment) Why? Because I bought into the game so well, I was so well in-character that I did not actually care.

I do not wish to force unvoiced protagonist - I've said I prefer it, I've argued to an extent why, and why I think unvoiced protagonist is better - it would of course make me glad DA would return to silent protagonist, and as you might recall, I've said, I think, a mute-button that would remove the lipsync-cinematics and show the full lines, would be an acceptable compromise.

I do not see why voiced protagonist is necessarily moving forward - both approaches do have their pros and cons - for me, at least at the moment, the silent protagonist approach wins by a mile.

Again making a paragraph choices is not going to help a bit, point back to DAO, many players had problems reading it. Some find Alistair, zev hitting on them and have no clue of why, now with a BIG heart they have the same problem too.. is wierd they don't know what a heart means or how to read properly.

Ummh. I don't get it, I want to - rather - need to know what my character is going to say - I do not wish to be surprised - I have usually a rather clear idea about what kind of character I want to play - if I am not given full lines, there are bound to be contradictions -> reloading, until I get the least bad dialogue-option, with full lines, this is not a problem.

I think DA2 was a forward push with VO character, I like it alot more that wardens, I love DAO do not take me wrong but the feeling that a VO character gives, is way better that the warden, who never smile, never banter,  looked sad or mischievous* ( *playful, roguish,saucy, sly).

do I feel DAO and DA2 characters are mine? of course I create the characters and play with them until... I delete them.

This is yet again where we apparently differ, every time Hawke participated in banter I wanted to /headdesk.
The character that was supposed to be mine, said something, completely without player-input, and these, in turn, could turn out to contradict the idea of what kind of character I wanted to play.

After all is said and done, each and every of my wardens is my character. Biowares Purple Garret Hawke is not.

[0x30A88]

For fixed characters like Leliana in Leliana's Song, yes. Otherwise, no -- unless we can drag a couple of sliders to define a voice, but I doubt that will be possible this decade or the next.

[dragonfire100]

voiced

[phaonica]

Gisle Aune wrote...

For fixed characters like Leliana in Leliana's Song, yes. Otherwise, no -- unless we can drag a couple of sliders to define a voice, but I doubt that will be possible this decade or the next.

Voice sliders might be an interesting option. Something like what Auto-Tune or Vocaloid does.

I think even if we had infinite voices to choose from, though, I'd still prefer silent.

[Nighteye2]

nicethugbert wrote...
Silent protagonist lacks immersion because it is unnatural.

Voiced protagonist breaks immersion by saying things in a way that contradicts what the player wants, or by doing things the player does not expect.

To be immersed the player needs to control the PC in as many ways as possible - and never be surprised by any of the PC's actions. That is why the silent protagonist offers far superior immersion, despite it appearing 'unnatural' to you that the PC's voice is in your head rather than coming from your speakers.

[Ross42899]

Don't like "silent characters". A voiced character is way better. It felt strange in KotoR, Jade Empire & DAO, when everyone talked except your character. IMO a voiced character improves drastically the gameplay experience and it's a lot more fun to have a fully voiced character.

Nighteye2 wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Silent protagonist lacks immersion because it is unnatural.

Voiced protagonist breaks immersion by saying things in a way that contradicts what the player wants, or by doing things the player does not expect.

Disagree. It Is unatural to have a silent character. And I can decide what my character will say, no matter if he is voiced or not. So why would it break immersion  if he has a voice?

Modifié par Ross42899, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .