557 réponses à ce sujet

[Miss Greyjoy]

I can't say I dislike the voiced protagonist, but I felt the tradeoff was not worth it. Fewer race options, a shorter story, the three personality conversation wheel...meh. Maybe these problems will disappear in future games, but I feel the DA series lost a lot to gain very little, and the voiced protagonist is a small part of that.

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...

Both are very personal and a pure matter of preference. I don't believe there's a right or wrong here.

To some people, you're wrong. Not to me though.

I am a she playing mostly male characters, so my voice would sound really weird most of the times.

those were the main things I wanted to quote you on, but I do agree with your points.

[SilentK]

I love to have a voice =) for me it works better that way and I connect more to my alt. Guess that I got lucky in that sense. I love DAO but it's easier for me to play DA2.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

FieryDove wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Discussion is immaterial. Voiced is here to stay.
/thread

I have to agree with Rin this time. (faints)

Voice is here to stay no matter what we say.

HIGH FIVE!  :)

It's like actual music in games and 3d models.  People complained about how mo bettah MIDI and spirites were back in the day.  Voiced protag in RPGs is simply an idea whose time has long since come.  It does close some doors, but it opens new ones.

[Rokky94]

I like to have voiced characters, but that reduces the option of races as bioware aren't likely to make different voice overs for elves, humans, and dwarves.

Voice overs mean less customization, so I'll take no voice overs.

[R0vena]

I prefer the voiced character, but can live with the silent one just fine. It is not a major issue for me.

[expanding panic]

Nephi_1111 wrote...

I prefer a voiced character however I dislike the dialogue wheel I would much prefer an origin style layout (a list of lines) with a small icon at the end to indicate the general tone of the sentence, but not mass effect style paragon/snark/renegade

No, this is a complete waste of time. I started to play the Witcher and it is really annoying to hear him repeat what I just read. If it is done this way then there is absolutely no reason for a voiced character. IF you want voiced go with the Dialog wheel. 

[Get Magna Carter]

I prefer to pick a voice of my own imagination especially if it gives me more control of dialogue (either in words or more subtly through tone and emphasis).
though voiced works better in dialogue scene
(I did however hate Breath of Fire III for having a protagonist too young to have learned to speak. unvoiced is good, taciturn is okay, genuine mute is bad)

[jaikss]

Really depends on the type of game for me.If it's a set character like Geralt then I prefer a VO,but if it's more of a blank slate character then I feel it makes for a pretty shallow experience.

[Pasquale1234]

I found Hawke very difficult to role-play, and the voice was one of the reasons why. Hawke often said things without any input whatsoever from me, and the paraphrasing from which we choose bears little relationship to what actually comes out of her mouth. In a role-playing game, the player should never ever be surprised by anything the protagonist says or does.

I often felt that I could have simply chosen diplomatic/helpful, snarky, or assertive personality at the beginning of the game and then sat there and watched it all play itself with minimal additional input from me. Watching a movie is an enjoyable experience, but not the kind of experience I expect when I choose to play a (supposedly) role-playing game.

Being able to toggle the voice and accompanying cinematics off is an interesting idea, but having the protagonist voiced automatically limits the player's options. In other words, those players who would choose to turn off the voicing would still have their role-playing limited by the options provided to those who play with voicing turned on.

The focus on cinematics is also one of the reasons why we had to go to our companions' homes to talk with them in DA2. They had to set up camera angles that they felt would work well in a specific environment, thus we could not have conversations with our companions where and when we might choose.

The focus on cinematics takes away the player's control of the flow of the game in other ways, too. There were many times in DA2 when I could not, for example, loot bodies after a battle because the game automatically started up the next cutscene. There are a couple of specific items that you have to try to loot during certain battles or you lose the opportunity to get them, because we have to move on to the next cutscene as soon as the battle is finished.

DA2 is the only game that I have ever felt the need to turn off my PS3 and then restart/reload my last save because I wanted to go back and replay something instead of sitting through cutscene/dialog after cutscene/dialog after cutscene/dialog before control would be returned to me. It completely destroys immersion along with the impact of those cutscenes when the player ends up having to watch them over and over and over again in order to play the game per the player's preferences. I find it extremely frustrating (not to mention really hard on the equipment).

In the end, protagonist voicing combined with the heavy use of cinematics might give the game developer more power to tell a story exactly the way they want to present it (like a movie producer), but it takes control away from the player. And I think a game should be about the player, not the developer's desire to tell a story in a certain way.

So I vote a resounding "no" on the voiced protag and "less is more" on the cinematics.

[Aargh12]

I'm all for voiced protagonists but in RPGs with set protagonists - like Geralt in the Witcher or Adam Jensen in Deus Ex.
If I'm to create MY OWN character, I want it to be silent.
@expanding panic:

IF you want voiced go with the Dialog wheel.

You should definitely check Deus Ex when it comes out - there is a dialogue wheel, but when you highlight an option you can see what actually your character is going to say.

[Tirfan]

Sutekh wrote...

Both are very personal and a pure matter of preference. I don't believe there's a right or wrong here.

In games where the NPCs are themselves voiced and dialogs are staged and viewed from a third person PoV (such as DAO and DA2), I prefer voiced, because then a silent PC feels very strange to me and this can be immersion breaking, especially if the dialog is long or emotional or the scene very theatrical (Landsmeet comes to mind). In such scenes, I want to not only see but also hear the back and forth between the protagonists, as opposed to have a seemingly one-sided conversation.

In all my DAO playthroughs, I kept having this very disturbing feeling of playing a telepathic mute. It broke the fourth wall every now on then, in places where immersion and emotion should be strong. Like watching a movie and suddenly being very aware that those people on screen are actors playing a part, and not characters involved in a given situation. So, instead of making the PC more "mine", it made me realize that my beloved Warden was nothing but a bunch of pixels and code.

It might also come from the fact that I don't play "me", be it in CRPG or PnP. I play a role, which can be as far from "me" as imaginable. I don't hear "my" voice (in PnP, I have to get over my voice). I am a she playing mostly male characters, so my voice would sound really weird most of the times.

As for the tone, it's usually given both by the line the PC is saying and by the NPC reactions to said line. You can give it whatever tone you want, the actual meaning and result are the ones intended by the writers. A CRPG is always a constrained setting for a PC, even with so-called "blank slate" characters. Especially in tight plot games like DA.

Someone in another thread made a very good case for Silent Protagonist, and while I agreed with all their points in theory, in practice, I know my preferences, and I know what effect SP has on me, which isn't a good one. It's not something that can be reasoned. It just is.

I think a toggle where you could deactivate sound and lips synch files would be an acceptable solution, even if not perfect.

Yeah, I think we had a bit of this conversation in some other thread - I can aknowledge that not all people play like me, or have different things that work for them, and I can even somehow understand how VO enhances the RP-experience for some people (I'm looking at you TEWR, your explanation sounds completely insane, but, well, who am I to judge)

I play as far is possible in "first person" - which doesn't mean I project my personality to the character - usually they are very different from me, but when I'm playing the thought process is "What would I (as the character) do?" And it is easier when I can create my character as much from the start as possible and the character isn't voiced  - I act out the lines, in the voice I imagine, in the tone I imagine, I can put as much emotion in the lines as I want - okay, the NPC:s do not react accordingly and on intellectual level I do agree that this is bad - but when I'm in character, I really don't care.

The voice-toggle is an compromise, and I'm more than willing to settle for it as I have already stated, it is not the perfect solution.. but, well, it is something.

[HK-90210]

Barkortran wrote...

This is a good set of points but aren’t you supposed to be your character. In my opinion you are allowed to speak for your character because you are your character.

I think that's just down to personal preferance in roleplaying. When I roleplay, I am watching a story unfold. A story that I have a small level of control over, but in the end does not involve me on a fundamental level. I empathize with characters, and immerse myself with the world, but I'm always apart from it as well. So my immersion is different that your immersion.

For my way of playing, a voiced protagonist is the way to go. It gives me another way of seeing the main character, and judging what he/she would do in any given situation. Wheras in Origins(as much as I liked it), I always felt a bit lost when roleplaying my characters in that game. They did not feel as 'real' to me, since I could never hear them speak any more than a few battle lines.

And the toggle idea might be considered a compromise, but I think it would be too impractical. The fact remains that the silent protagonist would have to have the exact same options as the voiced protagonist. He/she would never say anything new or different, you would just not hear the voice. And to put in the amount of text for all of those lines and integrate that into the game's dialogue system would be a hassle I don't think the developers would be willing to go through. And I can't say I would blame them. From what I've seen, most people prefer voiced protagonist. So the effort would not be worth it from a manpower standpoint.

So, much as I hate to add my voice to the pile, I think voiced protagonist is here to stay.

EDIT: Ooooo, just thought of something! Using Kenict to let you say the lines? Come on, you know the DA franchise is going to jump on that bandwagon. We can't stop it. Mind as well use it!

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[Huntress]

I like voice more now, why this come up again?.. Hasn't been a month since a similar post got lock..
Deja Vu.


/salt over shoulder

[schalafi]

If I like the protagonist's voice, then I'll vote for voiced rpgs. If, as in ME, I disliked Shephard's voice then I would have rather had written dialogue. I liked my fem Hawke's voice, but didn't like the male vo, so who voices the pc makes a big difference to me.

[Sutekh]

CastonFolarus wrote...
EDIT: Ooooo, just thought of something! Using Kenict to let you say the lines? Come on, you know the DA franchise is going to jump on that bandwagon. We can't stop it. Mind as well use it!

As an option, Kinect would be great. As the only alternative to SP, nope. Because, again, female here playing male PCs (and I'm not the only one to play the opposite gender). It would be even weirder than saying the lines in my head with my voice. Really, really weirder. 

Plus there are other cons to the Kinect idea which shouldn't make it the only alternative to voiced either: pricy hardware, need of a console, technology not recognizing "tone", and privacy problems, for instance. While the first three might disappear with time, the fourth one won't.

[In Exile]

Barkortran wrote...
I think that a voice protagonist clamps down on the imersion of the series as I am now directing Hawke instead of inserting myself into the story. 

I disagree. For one, I don't think a self-insert is possible because of how little choice you have in your actions and how you have 0 control over what & how you say things (the lines are pre-written, dialogue wheel or no).

Beyond that, I say that a mute protagonist and talking companions reduces immersion, because it makes it the case that you have 1 actionless puppet + fully realized people.

alex90c wrote...
Voiced protagonist can be completely game-breaking if you don't like the voice (e.g. me w/DA2). So I prefer silent.

And the lack of voice can be completely gamebreaking if you don't like the lack of voice. 

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Just change the POV for dialogues if you're worried about the PC having the blank stare- again, not unlike how Deus Ex: HR goes into first person view for big conversation moments so that the focus is on reading the emotions/facial expressions of the person you're talking to- reading their expressions and body language.

That doesn't fix the problem.

When you talk, do your hands, legs and body dissapear? Do you stand straight as an arrow, and do you look only on one place, generally focusing on 2/3rds of the body of the other person you speak to? Do you stand motionless?

A first person view is nothing like an actual first person view. It's not as if you're seeing anything with your own eyes. It's the same kind of souless puppet problem only now it's magnified becuase you're very obviously not seeing that through your own eyes.

And it frees up a good amount of resources to be used elsewhere in the game since you don't have to voice countless lines from the PC which will be obfuscated by BioWare's Sacred Cow dialogue wheel/paraphrasing. Not to mention the resources freed up could more easily allow for greater character customization and the likely return of multiple races.

There has never been a game that made multiple races anything more than a cosmetic choice. If we have to choose between souless puppet and flashy additions like reskinned character models or a voice and active behaviour, then choice is pretty clear.

That is, unless you value flash over substance.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I found Hawke very difficult to role-play, and the voice was one of the reasons why. Hawke often said things without any input whatsoever from me, and the paraphrasing from which we choose bears little relationship to what actually comes out of her mouth. In a role-playing game, the player should never ever be surprised by anything the protagonist says or does.

That's impossible. In DA:O, there were multiple times I had choices I wanted to make (as a HNM I wanted to rule alone and depose Anora) or say (joke with Alistair, call him out on his hypocrisy) that were impossible in the dialogue system.

Ignoring conversations where the written line has no connection to how the writers interpreted it and hooked it up to other dialogue, it is a basic reality of RPGs that having control over what you say in a game is impossible.

Being able to toggle the voice and accompanying cinematics off is an interesting idea, but having the protagonist voiced automatically limits the player's options. In other words, those players who would choose to turn off the voicing would still have their role-playing limited by the options provided to those who play with voicing turned on.

And those who want an active protagonist (why is my HN allowing Duncan to talk about her family, and why are any of my Grey Wardens allowing Alistiar or Anora to address their army) you're just forced into playing a passive stooge. Which is just as restrictive for roleplay.

It completely destroys immersion along with the impact of those cutscenes when the player ends up having to watch them over and over and over again in order to play the game per the player's preferences. I find it extremely frustrating (not to mention really hard on the equipment).

Which is no different than DA:O. In fact, I would say that DA:O is a much worse game if you're a naturally sarcastic person, because 20% of the lines in that game that read as if they were sarcastic were played straight.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:29 .

[Drasanil]

In Exile wrote...
There has never been a game that made multiple races anything more than a cosmetic choice. If we have to choose between souless puppet and flashy additions like reskinned character models or a voice and active behaviour, then choice is pretty clear.

That is, unless you value flash over substance.

An odd argument. DAO made it quite well actually, the origins provided a context in which your Warden saw the world post-Ostagar and served to inform your choices, in addition to some of the unique content.

Conversely Hawke starts off with no tangible reference points or past that allows you to shape your character, she has a blank personality you fill in but with little to no actual context provided to inform your choices. Hawke is pretty much the definition of all flash and no substance.

[Alexander1136]

silent 100%

[Realmzmaster]

Drasanil wrote...

In Exile wrote...
There has never been a game that made multiple races anything more than a cosmetic choice. If we have to choose between souless puppet and flashy additions like reskinned character models or a voice and active behaviour, then choice is pretty clear.

That is, unless you value flash over substance.

An odd argument. DAO made it quite well actually, the origins provided a context in which your Warden saw the world post-Ostagar and served to inform your choices, in addition to some of the unique content.

Conversely Hawke starts off with no tangible reference points or past that allows you to shape your character, she has a blank personality you fill in but with little to no actual context provided to inform your choices. Hawke is pretty much the definition of all flash and no substance.

The problem with Hawke is that he/she has no backstory where you see him/her living in Lothering. It has nothing to do with whether Hawke is voiced or not. A silent Hawke with no backstory would be the same.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[Morroian]

Drasanil wrote...

Conversely Hawke starts off with no tangible reference points or past that allows you to shape your character, she has a blank personality you fill in but with little to no actual context provided to inform your choices. Hawke is pretty much the definition of all flash and no substance.

Er no actually its a specific literary technique called 'in media res'. Whether it works in a game is up for debate but it is not about being all flash and no substance.

[Morroian]

Brockololly wrote...

I don't mind voiced protagonists in games like Geralt or Adam Jensen in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

But my like/dislike has much to do with how established the PC is as well as the dialogue system. The BioWare brand wheel / paraphrasing / tone icons sucks. Its terrible. If they change that, maybe I'd be more favorable to a voiced PC in a BioWare game.

TW2 has a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and some of the paraphrasing is as bad as some of the DA or ME paraphrasing, DEHR has a dialogue wheel. If they add a subtitle of the actual line and improve the paraphrase isn't that enough. 

[Icinix]

I prefer playing with a silent character, it helps to maintain that sense of "This is my character, this is me, in this game." sort of feel.

Where as with a voiced character, its less this is me, and more this is a character I am controlling.

Something like Vampire: Bloodlines was a great example of this. You owned the character and it felt like you were engaged in a battle of wits during some conversations. Voiced characters, particularly with abbreviated dialogue choices, its much harder to get that feeling.