557 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

I do not oppose voiced characters as such. It is a zero-sum, some benefit and some losses compared side-by-side (player agency vs cinematic design).
However, since for Bioware voice comes married to the lying, misleading, cheating device that are the paraphrases, I must choose silent. At least then I know what my character is saying before he says it.
And anyone who believes being suprised by their own character acting in a manner unfitting to them increases the enjoyment in a roleplaying experience should have his opinion discounted, because it makes no goddamn sense.

[Dariuszp]

I always prefered silent characters. Reason is simple. When I choose what character will say and someone will react - I feel like I did something.
When you choose type of respond (good/bad/stupid response in DA II way + sometimes romance response with that silly big glowing heart) and then I must wait to see what Hawk say (because sometimes he said something different that I expect him to say), you feel like observer, not player.

At least me. So I prefer silent characters because when I control him, shape him and select what he say - he feel mine.

[SilentK]

lobi wrote...

SilentK wrote...

lobi wrote...

The potential in games for the player to be creative and involved in the game space in a meaningful way is not going to happen if Developers are allowed to continue locking players into a one track movie script with pre-developed player characters which is what is happening with the DA franchaise.
Mass Effect has been like this from the beginning, ok that's acceptable. But trying to turn Dragon age into another Mass effect is reprehensible and motivated soley by the desire for profit. The room players had to create their individualised player char within the game space has been diminished.
Those that want to call this progress technological or otherwise are in my opinion, foolish.

Hmmm  I don't agree with you here   =)    I have loved all my Shepards and Hawkes and very much feel that they are different people. You may prefer to play a silent char but for me, I love my voiced alts. Hmm...  I think it's a little harsh to call it foolish perhaps. We all just prefer different things.

I call foolish on the willingness to let Devs off the hook when it comes to a diminishing the scope for individuality in a pre-existing franchaise which enjoyed it's popularity due to said scope for individuality.
I do not like cheesburgers made with processed cheese that taste the same in china as they do in kentucky. Some do. If they had always been that way fine. but if it was changed as soon as it was popular for an inferior product pandering to a mass taste for the safety and security of the generic just to make more filthy lucre I am the type to anger.

lol, bitter much    =)     I guess it's easier for me to be in a general happy mood. I really really like the voice and the wheel so after work I get to play around with a game that makes me happy. Hmmm... I find it a little easier to try to get into how others feel about silent-voiced when the posts are a bit less... I don't know... flamey perhaps. But no worries. Have a good time in the thread    =)

[SilentK]

Dariuszp wrote...

I always prefered silent characters. Reason is simple. When I choose what character will say and someone will react - I feel like I did something.
When you choose type of respond (good/bad/stupid response in DA II way + sometimes romance response with that silly big glowing heart) and then I must wait to see what Hawk say (because sometimes he said something different that I expect him to say), you feel like observer, not player.

At least me. So I prefer silent characters because when I control him, shape him and select what he say - he feel mine.

Hmmm... Interesting. I see what you mean with being an observer I just haven't felt it myself. For me when playing DAO I often felt that I read my chosen response in one way but the person I talked to reacted as if I had said it in a different way. Pretty much as if I thought I said something in a kind way and they took it very very differently. For me it was more of a guessing game in DAO. Hmmm... that could be why DA2 suits me better   =)

ohh... Just have to say that I really like the -symbol. When in ME2 it can be a little difficult to talk to the LI:s and know if you are talking friendly or flirty. Sometimes I get the romance going when I just want to be friends. I wish I could import the  or have that choice highlighted in a different color or something. It would also have been really handy in DAO. My hubby romanced Leliana, or so he thought at least. He got to almost the end of the game before he realised that they didn't have a romance going, he had been too polite whenever he spoke to her so it never triggered. He was a little sad. It doesn't have to be a heart for my choice. But I think it's a pretty good thing to know what the intent is.

Modifié par SilentK, 25 juillet 2011 - 10:44 .

[Barkortran]

Some interesting points I'm beginning to fell a little better about voiced protagonists because I have realised that I played DA2 the wrong way. It seems to me that all those points about different types of immersion have been bang on so I am going to issue a challenge.

If you like silent protagonist like me then go play DA2 again but do it as if you were watching a movie. Cook some popcorn, make jokes at the scene as you watch it, dont think "what would i or my character do in this situation" but more what would I like to see the character do.

Those that like voiced protagonists, let your self dive into the world of DA:O. Write a page of back story before you go into it, never act with hindsight from other play throughs. every time you make a decision think "what am I feeling now?" what internal conflict exists inside you and how has it been effected by your childhood as a castless. You don't have to be you that is probably one of the worst thing you can do. Thing back on your characters past and think what are their values then determine how they feel at the moment using things like temper, sympathy, excitement levels. then once this is complete think back to an event in your life that made you feel the same way and focus on making it the overriding emotion in your own mind. then take everything into consideration, make your decision and continue focusing on feeling that emotion after the combat ends. (note you don't have to go into that much detail for the whole game just the important decisions or the decisions you think will have an effect on your character like a betrayal or a realisation.)

I am looking forward to approaching DA2 in this new light and I reckon that the proponents for voice protagonists will find my recommendations at least interesting.

[Dariuszp]

SilentK wrote...

Dariuszp wrote...

I always prefered silent characters. Reason is simple. When I choose what character will say and someone will react - I feel like I did something.
When you choose type of respond (good/bad/stupid response in DA II way + sometimes romance response with that silly big glowing heart) and then I must wait to see what Hawk say (because sometimes he said something different that I expect him to say), you feel like observer, not player.

At least me. So I prefer silent characters because when I control him, shape him and select what he say - he feel mine.

Hmmm... Interesting. I see what you mean with being an observer I just haven't felt it myself. For me when playing DAO I often felt that I read my chosen response in one way but the person I talked to reacted as if I had said it in a different way. Pretty much as if I thought I said something in a kind way and they took it very very differently. For me it was more of a guessing game in DAO. Hmmm... that could be why DA2 suits me better   =)

ohh... Just have to say that I really like the -symbol. When in ME2 it can be a little difficult to talk to the LI:s and know if you are talking friendly or flirty. Sometimes I get the romance going when I just want to be friends. I wish I could import the  or have that choice highlighted in a different color or something. It would also have been really handy in DAO. My hubby romanced Leliana, or so he thought at least. He got to almost the end of the game before he realised that they didn't have a romance going, he had been too polite whenever he spoke to her so it never triggered. He was a little sad. It doesn't have to be a heart for my choice. But I think it's a pretty good thing to know what the intent is.

Maeby it would be not a problem if Hawk would say something that I would say. But if you have that laconic response - you never know. Only thing you can choose is type of reaction. Not actual response.
That is the problem for me. Main character say something that I would never say so I never treat him as my own character. As observer I can influence game characters but still i'm just observer. They do whatever they want. It's like I'm loosing control. Something like this.

About that <3 icon. Personaly I dont like them. Mostly because I'm treated like a child that don't think and don't know how to read.
For example in my personal life I had sometimes difficoult situation when I was polite to some girl and she was thinkint that I have something more in mind.
Same things in game. You say something but you cannot be sure about raction. Because someone can read wrong your intentions. Best example :-D
I ask my ex-girlfriend when she had small technical problem if I can help her. Just like that. Then I was hearing hour of complains - "you act all almighty", like "you think that I'm is stupid" and few other things. Just because I ask if I can help.
Some times later she had EXACLY SAME PROBLEM (some girls never learn) but I stayed quiet. Who want hours of complains just to act like it's your foult and say sorry to get over it ?  Wrong. I had half hour complains about "why I dont care and I never help her". Trust me. Stay quite. It take only half of your time 

I expect funny stuff like that in games ;-D Stuff that keep your life interesting ;-D

In DA II they make everything obvious. If you select red hammer, you will act badass or evil. If you select green leaf, you will be good and polite. If you select comic mask, you will act like idiot or you will try to be funny.
If you select question mark - you can get some useless info (knowing and not knowing additional stuff don't make a difference for you).
If you expect that glowing heart you will probably f*** someone soon.

They even make same mistake in ME series. If you select blue option - you will get best outcome from conversation. If you select red it will be the same. Difference is that Shepard will act polite or not. So soon you will learn that selecting any other opions is pointless. They literally killing conversations in their games.

It's almost insulting in my opinion and destroy fun from conversations. And conversations is what I really like. Probably because my love for books.

So silent character + full response as text. If you must, give us options to decide. We will see full answer or laconic. Right now I dont like the way Bioware games are going in many ways.

Modifié par Dariuszp, 25 juillet 2011 - 11:09 .

[Lord Gremlin]

I don't know what to say. Generally voiced is better for immersion, but if they do it like in DA2 - with paraphrasing and dialogue wheel - I'd rather have silent one. Give me control over story and character, or I will just move on to Bethesda games, which also offer little to no choice, but look and play good. That's the problem, DA2 didn't feel like Bioware game, it felt like Bethesda game, but bad.
Voiced protagonist works perfect in Gothic games BTW. Check them for details on how and why. And why you never ever use paraphrases in RPG.

[Zeevico]

1. Dislike paraphrases.
2. Haven't seen voiced protagonist implemented without (2).
3. Voiced protagonist also a costly feature.
4. Subject to an implementation without paraphrasing, I'm opposed to it because it's costly, makes the game more cinematic and less like a game where you can imagine your character as the PC, and I'm not convinced that it's fun.

[phaonica]

Barkortran wrote...

If you like silent protagonist like me then go play DA2 again but do it as if you were watching a movie. Cook some popcorn, make jokes at the scene as you watch it, dont think "what would i or my character do in this situation" but more what would I like to see the character do.

I did this on my second playthrough. In my first playthrough, I had been trying to make the character "mine" and it just didn't work.

So on my second playthrough, I picked out the default Hawke face and I made decisions based on "What would *he* do" as opposed to "What would *I* do, if I were this person." It was a lot easier to accept Hawke as not being my character, and this second playthrough was more fun (but not as fun as any of my playthroughs of DAO, and not fun enough for me to play DA2 again). (And slightly off topic, Hawke not being my character made it easier for me to accept the imo nonsensical nonissue of the character's being a mage.)

I don't want to play a video game as if I were watching a movie. If I wanted to watch a movie, I'd watch a movie. I want to *play* a game. As technology gets more advanced I'd like games to become *more* interactive, not less.

Modifié par phaonica, 25 juillet 2011 - 12:48 .

[King Cousland]

Undecided. Voiced is more immersive, but as in the case of ME2 and DAII, dialogue choices were quite pathetic in some places, laughable in others, the wheel was messy, and Hawke didn;t say what I wanted him to. If DAIII uses a dialogue tree instead of a wheel, and the PC says what the branch says, definitely voiced.

[SoulRebel_1979]

I could appreciate both. Though with a voiced, if you don't like the voice, you are **** out of luck.

I grew up playing silent, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, though I can see how people can find it a little boring.

Given the choice though, I would choose silent though because I like to pretend all my heroes sound like Rodney Dangerfield. They don't get any respect.

[Sutekh]

Barkortran wrote...

Those that like voiced protagonists, let your self dive into the world of DA:O. Write a page of back story before you go into it, never act with hindsight from other play throughs. every time you make a decision think "what am I feeling now?" what internal conflict exists inside you and how has it been effected by your childhood as a castless. You don't have to be you that is probably one of the worst thing you can do. Thing back on your characters past and think what are their values then determine how they feel at the moment using things like temper, sympathy, excitement levels. then once this is complete think back to an event in your life that made you feel the same way and focus on making it the overriding emotion in your own mind. then take everything into consideration, make your decision and continue focusing on feeling that emotion after the combat ends. (note you don't have to go into that much detail for the whole game just the important decisions or the decisions you think will have an effect on your character like a betrayal or a realisation.) 

((Chilhood as a casteless?))

That's exactly how I play DAO. The tiniest little bit of dialog, the most minuscule little hint is a pretext for me to build a story. That guy in my avatar? I could write pages about his childhood, his parents' love story, his guardian's reasons for raising him, the mischief he got into with his buddy Tamlen... How he thinks, how he feels, how he's evolved during the course of Origins and Awakening and beyond... (and then I go write fanfiction [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie] ).

I do the same for Hawke, to a lesser extent because we're already given background for him via the codex. In fact, that's how I play any game with a central protagonist(s). It's an old habit that comes from both PnP and my way to approach roleplaying in general. I even came with backstory and motivation for the Slayer in Divinity II, while we have no background whatsoever. Back in the old days, I had background for everyone, even those guys in Wizardry who were just names, class and stats and nothing more.

I'll pass on "the event in my life" though. I don't need a "real life reference", and I play games for fun, not therapy or bad memories. Even if it sometimes "serious" fun.

Keeping that in mind, I don't quite understand how this is related to voiced / silent. Unless you're implying that wanting a voice means we've never done that before? Or that if we do, we'll suddenly want a silent protagonist too? If that's the case (not saying it is), then nope. My prefering voice has nothing to do with fleshing out the PC or making them less "boring".

Modifié par Sutekh, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:05 .

[alex90c]

I think if we're going to go with voiced protagonists (which Bioware definitely is) then as a consequence we need to have more of a fixed protagonist. Hawke was the kind of person where you were told a bit about them but then the rest was left to you to invent, which made the character as he was just a complete borefest.

On the other hand you get Shepard who is this dude (with a number of different origins mind you) who ended up enlisting in the alliance military, did a load of badass stuff, became a spectre and then sets off to stop Saren. So what you have there (among other stuff about him) is a fairly fixed personality (a badass - ranging from paragon badass to renegade badass and the in-between) who has a clear goal in mind. What you get with Hawke is someone who is completely aimless and lacks any sort of goal, and especially if he's a mage it would make more sense for him to want to get the hell out of Kirkwall once he's raised enough money.

But alas, THE PLOT DICTATES.

[ladyofpayne]

Voiced! Because it's more itnresting than Capitain Nemo.

[LoserLi]

I preferred voiced but I wish there was a way for them to give us a selection of voices (like in DA:O even though you didn't hear them much)

[Jamesnew2]

voiced imo

[Ayanko]

It depends, I liked them being voiced but sometimes they say things differently than what I wanted. The Aggressive option for instance was pretty much:-

Well I don't want to do that -picks the "No" option-
Result:- "F*** off and go jump of a cliff -RENEGADE PUNCH-
Me response: T_T I just wanted you to say "No" dear maker, not brutalize them.

While with my warden I already figured what he would sound like, and I would read the dialogue options in their voice, the way I wanted them to say it.

Modifié par Ayanko, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:56 .

[Annarl]

I don't mind either way. But there are times, in silent protagonists games that something is missing. For in me, an example is in DAO having no voice means my warden can't delivery the pre-battle speech or no voice in the Landsmeet. It struck me as odd. But not a deal breaker. I can role play either way.

[Pasquale1234]

Barkortran wrote...

If you like silent protagonist like me then go play DA2 again but do it as if you were watching a movie. Cook some popcorn, make jokes at the scene as you watch it, dont think "what would i or my character do in this situation" but more what would I like to see the character do.

That's pretty much the only way I've ever been able to play through DA2.

As I said before, several pages back - a player should never ever be surprised by something the protagonist says or does in a role-playing game.  And I was often surprised by Hawke.

[happy_daiz]

This thread again? *yawn*

[ReallyRue]

I prefer having a voiced character, because the conversations feel more real to me that way. It also gives the character more presence. I think DA2's voiced protagonist was better than ME's though, because of the three personality styles you could have. FemHawke's voice was definitely different on diplomatic, humorous and aggressive.

One advantage of the silent protagonist though, was the Origin stories. I loved those. I doubt I'll be able to play an elf again unless those are a feature sometime in the future.

[FaeQueenCory]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Barkortran wrote...

If you like silent protagonist like me then go play DA2 again but do it as if you were watching a movie. Cook some popcorn, make jokes at the scene as you watch it, dont think "what would i or my character do in this situation" but more what would I like to see the character do.

That's pretty much the only way I've ever been able to play through DA2.

As I said before, several pages back - a player should never ever be surprised by something the protagonist says or does in a role-playing game.  And I was often surprised by Hawke.

I also adopted this "I'm watching a story" rather than "I'm making a story" like when I role play... the RP value of the voiced protagonist is completely nonexistent... Which is why I enjoy having a silent protagonist, because it allows for more RP. And less watching.
Basically I prefer the silent Warden because it allowed me to actually be the Warden... Hawke was, is, and always shall be nothing more than my cousin... Regardless of what import save I have.

[tfive24]

these r the bioware games that i own and # of times i played them .this will tell u with side that i am on 
KOTOR 12x
ME1 4x
DOA/A 8x
ME2 1x
DA2 didn't finish/never will

there isn't any comproise with voiced vs. non voice. it has to be 1 or the other.

Modifié par tfive24, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:04 .

[Realmzmaster]

So where does that leave Bioware. It seems that many gamers who want the silent protagonist and an equal number seem to want a voiced protagonist. Bioware will not be able to please everyone.
Bioware appears to be leaning in the direction of voiced protagonist. So is it a moot point?

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...
It isn't the predetermined tone that I object to. If you were able to choose from a list of predetermined lines and additionally choose from a list of predetermined tones, that would be fine with me. It is physically hearing a voice that separates me from the character.

That's interesting, because it's the lack of a voice that separates me from my character. The character can't be me (though characters I design have elements of me) but for them to be characters they need to be alive within the gameworld, and the distinction between PC and NPC via voice & cinematics makes this impossible without VO (unless we went back to pure text). 

I could say the same thing about the voiced character in DA2, that there were rarely lines that actually fit my character concept or previous beliefs.

This was also true in DA2 for me, don't get me wrong. I only pointed out that DA:O wasn't very good at this.

The difference - for me - is that DA2 shows the restrictions that the PC is under. So I know, for example, how Hawke is sarcastic or diplomatic, and what it means for Hawke to be either, so I can then build my beliefs & reactions relative to what the game allows me to do.

In DA2, when I had to choose a "best fit" line, and Hawke started talking and doing whatever, it only seemed to amplify that what I actually wanted to say wasn't an available choice. In DAO if I had to choose a best fit line, I could at least imagine the proper delivery.  

That works... until no one understands the proper delivery and treats you as if you were using some other delivery entirely.

You could argue that I'm ignoring what actually happens in favor of what I want to happen, which means I could just ignore whatever Hawke says just as easily. But to me, it doesn't happen as easily because I can physically see and hear Hawke doing something I didn't intend. 

It may be my imagination, but I don't need to see the Warden fail to adhere to what I want to know that the Warden fails to adhere to what I want. 

Well, first of all, if you character delivers that line in a sarcastic tone, and Morrigan reacts in a way that your character things sounds kind of moronic, then it's not impossible to RP around it, it's perfectly possible to RP that your character thinks that even Morrigan can be a little moronic. 

My character can't say: "Morrigain, what are you talking about? What the hell does sex have to do with anything?" And that is something my character would do.

If you have socially competent characters who are not shy, then not correcting misunderstandings right away breaks character. It breaks character for me as the paraphrase and voice breaks character for you, because it is an action that outright rips control away from me. If I cannot control misunderstandings it stops being my character.

In response to wanting to correct her... I accept that this is a video game that someone had to program and someone had to pay for and that I can't expect the game to cover every spectrum of tone and gesture. I would think to myself that I would have liked the chance to correct the misunderstanding, but the devs can't be expected to anticipate every possible intention the line could carry.  

But why do you not tell yourself that the tone has to be fixed for every line, because the developers have to know what tone any line is being said with so they can craft a response?

If you're going to appeal to design, then why don't you see how the design invalidates your playstyle?

In DAO, I didn't frequently come across a time where my intentions were misinterpreted. Usually if I wasn't clear on a line, I'd skip that one in favor of a line that seemed clearer in intention to me.  

That doesn't work when you're trying to constantly guess whether a line can be sarcastic or not. Because it has nothing to do with the wording. And then you're stuck with "This line doesn't fit with anything!" and "I don't know what this line is!" It just means reload, reload, reload.

You're using smilies to get tone across. I think that perfectly illustrates the point that tone does not HAVE to be carried by *voice* for it to carry the proper intention. It isn't the addition of tone indicators in DA2 that bothers me, it's the addition of physically hearing and seeing the delivery of the lines that, to me, causes the disconnect.

I was using italics and smilies to get tone across, which is just a way of getting across tone and expression. But I never said you need voice for tone. I just said that a line has a fixed tone, whether or not a writer wants to show it.