557 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Shazzie wrote...
And this is why trying to please everybody is impossible, hah!    Just like my reactions are so foreign to you, I am completely unable to fathom how a not only pre-scripted text line but a pre-voiced and pre-scripted line can feel remotely under your control... to me, that's the definition of 'under the control of the writer', whereas non-voiced lets me feel like I have some small control. 

For me, control is about causing. I don't think expression has anything to do with control, because I don't ever express myself for the sake of expressing myself. I do it for some end. I need help, I want to express an opinion so it is understood, I want to make a joke... whatever it is I am trying to do, there is some thing I am trying to make happen.

Control, for me, is about the behaviour I am engaging in being an accurate attempt to produce a certain end.

Silent VO (along with the lack of expresssions & body language) makes it impossible for me to know what the attempt to convey is. And then that leaves me with the NPC reaction. But if the NPC reaction is wrong, I can't correct it, and I can't explore the reasons for it. It simply is. 

And this is why I dislike silent VO. 

At least, for me, when I can't hear it, my imagination can place the emphasis and tone and emotion. I don't 'guess' what the intent is, I provide it, and that's what makes the character 'mine'. With voice, I feel like I'm in interactive cinema, and I'm just sitting back and watching the movie...err, game... play out. I never get invested, because I don't feel like I'm required to.

Intent, for me, is about what the character does. And if the other NPCs don't react right, that's an issue that needs to be addressed. But there's no mechanism for that with silent VO. And that's why I feel silent VO has no control (for me). Because it's simply a guessing game to get the right NPC response, since if I'm wrong I can never know why I'm wrong, forcing me to have characters that are 100% right. 

[HTTP 404]

they should expand on Voiced Protagonists. Although Silent seems better at dialog options right now, voiced protagonist is the future. They should work on expanding that feature and bring it up to par with silent version. If you want to see an example of video games stuck on tried and true formulas look at the Japanese video game industry and tell me how they are doing....change is difficult but more so for some of us here...

thats my 2 cents.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:12 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

erynnar wrote...

 And as someone who took years of art school and years of art history, your full of crap. Art doesn't endure because it evokes the same feelings of the people felt back when it was created.

That is complete twaddle. We have no idea what the audiences of those cave murals felt, nor the wall paintings of Pompeii. No one in the future will know what people felt when they looked at soup cans in differnt colors.  Van Gogh sold nary a painting when he was alive.

Again, twaddle.

As someone who deals in art, you underline the common snark that art is what people who went to college for it don't do.  :D:D 


Also, your Van Gogh point proves my point that future generations identify art versus lobi's point that only cohorts can identify art.  You also prove my point with your Warhol example.  Not art... at least not yet.  We don't know what will stand the test of time from his work, if anything will endure at all. 

Joe College needs another 101?  :P:P

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

lobi wrote...

Where does true art exist. On the tip of the artists brush or in the mind of the viewer of the created peice. Physical Art exists to provide a material connection to the metaphysical plane of our imaginations. A work of art provides a framework for our minds to apply imagination. The statement a work of art makes is how it guides the imagination toward a certain conclusion. The success or failure of a work depends on how effectivly it does this. A work that leaves too little to the imagination tends to fail if it's intention is to have the viewer use their imagination. Such as overly long descriptions of mundane events in literature or the Uncanny valley in digital works.

Yes!  Now do all those things... over a hundred years or a thousand.  That's art. 

[lobi]

quote]erynnar wrote...
Van Gogh sold nary a painting when he was alive.
[/quote]
And yet his works survived, why? because some contemporarys saw their value and did not throw them in the trash. Even if it does border on art brute and the trash is where it belongs, in my humble opinion of course.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

[quote]lobi wrote...

quote]erynnar wrote...
Van Gogh sold nary a painting when he was alive.
[/quote]
And yet his works survived, why? because some contemporarys saw their value and did not throw them in the trash. Even if it does border on art brute and the trash is where it belongs, in my humble opinion of course.[/quote]

That they were pretty doesn't make them art.  If they were pretty, they got kept.  That they were powerful and retained their beauty a hundred years later... that makes them art.

[SilentK]

In Exile wrote...

Shazzie wrote...
And this is why trying to please everybody is impossible, hah!    Just like my reactions are so foreign to you, I am completely unable to fathom how a not only pre-scripted text line but a pre-voiced and pre-scripted line can feel remotely under your control... to me, that's the definition of 'under the control of the writer', whereas non-voiced lets me feel like I have some small control. 

For me, control is about causing. I don't think expression has anything to do with control, because I don't ever express myself for the sake of expressing myself. I do it for some end. I need help, I want to express an opinion so it is understood, I want to make a joke... whatever it is I am trying to do, there is some thing I am trying to make happen.

Control, for me, is about the behaviour I am engaging in being an accurate attempt to produce a certain end.

Silent VO (along with the lack of expresssions & body language) makes it impossible for me to know what the attempt to convey is. And then that leaves me with the NPC reaction. But if the NPC reaction is wrong, I can't correct it, and I can't explore the reasons for it. It simply is. 

And this is why I dislike silent VO. 

At least, for me, when I can't hear it, my imagination can place the emphasis and tone and emotion. I don't 'guess' what the intent is, I provide it, and that's what makes the character 'mine'. With voice, I feel like I'm in interactive cinema, and I'm just sitting back and watching the movie...err, game... play out. I never get invested, because I don't feel like I'm required to.

Intent, for me, is about what the character does. And if the other NPCs don't react right, that's an issue that needs to be addressed. But there's no mechanism for that with silent VO. And that's why I feel silent VO has no control (for me). Because it's simply a guessing game to get the right NPC response, since if I'm wrong I can never know why I'm wrong, forcing me to have characters that are 100% right. 

Wow, you summed up the difficulties I have with a silent char much better than what I did earlier    =)    I often had to try to decipher how something had been said from how Leliana and the rest of them reacted. I believed that I had chosen a nice polite answer, the person opposite has a very very different reaction and I sit there afterwards trying to read and tone that scentence out loud to see what could have given that response. Seeing Hawke being able to show emotions while talking is also something that makes me happy to play with a voice and animations. They don't have to go overbord with the animations, but I appriciate that it isn't the same... hm.... cardboard-face of my poor beloved warden.

[erynnar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

erynnar wrote...

 And as someone who took years of art school and years of art history, your full of crap. Art doesn't endure because it evokes the same feelings of the people felt back when it was created.

That is complete twaddle. We have no idea what the audiences of those cave murals felt, nor the wall paintings of Pompeii. No one in the future will know what people felt when they looked at soup cans in differnt colors.  Van Gogh sold nary a painting when he was alive.

Again, twaddle.

As someone who deals in art, you underline the common snark that art is what people who went to college for it don't do.  :D:D 


Also, your Van Gogh point proves my point that future generations identify art versus lobi's point that only cohorts can identify art.  You also prove my point with your Warhol example.  Not art... at least not yet.  We don't know what will stand the test of time from his work, if anything will endure at all. 

Joe College needs another 101?  :P:P

I proved nothing except your talk of knowing what people felt back in the day when art of any kind was first created. As to Warhol being art, his works are considered art by some and crass comercialism by other and childish scriblliing by others. Art is not proven. It doesn't fall under logic at the end of the day. Look at Pollack. There will always be those that think the art is crap or brilliant. Much like DA2. It proves nothing except that no one will have the exact same opinion or feeling as those are unique to us as individuals.

And I don't mind going back to college. I don't mind using my brains for something other than keeping my ears from clanking together. Hence part of my dislike for the hold your hand, interactive movie, with Fed ex quests that is DA2.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

SilentK wrote...

Wow, you summed up the difficulties I have with a silent char much better than what I did earlier    =)    I often had to try to decipher how something had been said from how Leliana and the rest of them reacted. I believed that I had chosen a nice polite answer, the person opposite has a very very different reaction and I sit there afterwards trying to read and tone that scentence out loud to see what could have given that response. Seeing Hawke being able to show emotions while talking is also something that makes me happy to play with a voice and animations. They don't have to go overbord with the animations, but I appriciate that it isn't the same... hm.... cardboard-face of my poor beloved warden.

This.  I've never understood how people see their silent character saying "Hello" and pretending it's sarcastic... only to have the voiced NPC say in a warm, honest voice "I've missed you too!"  It's like... how can a silent PC offer you any immersion when the NPCs can yank you right out of you imaginings in one word.  A voiced PC might remove some of a player's ability to imagine... but it offers a smoother play experience.

[Deganis76]

I think the devs summed up the problem with the silent protagonist in using the example how it was almost impossible not to flirt with Zevran...even if you were just trying to be his friend. It was actually quite a funny little snippet.

[Zeevico]

How is that a silent protagonist issue, exactly?
You can have a voiced protagonist whose lines are stated fully in the dialogue options.

The problem you're pointing to is quite simply that the breadth of human interaction is not going to be captured by a paraphrase and an icon, and it won't be captured by a full sentence in text either. For my part I think a full sentence does a better job than a paraphrase (shock!), and maybe it'd do an even better one with an icon (though frankly I find the icons, like the heart icon, irritatingly condescending).

Modifié par Zeevico, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:41 .

[erynnar]

[quote]RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

[quote]lobi wrote...

quote]erynnar wrote...
Van Gogh sold nary a painting when he was alive.
[/quote]
And yet his works survived, why? because some contemporarys saw their value and did not throw them in the trash. Even if it does border on art brute and the trash is where it belongs, in my humble opinion of course.[/quote]

That they were pretty doesn't make them art.  If they were pretty, they got kept.  That they were powerful and retained their beauty a hundred years later... that makes them art.

[/quote]

No, that's not what makes them art.

[Tommy6860]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

SilentK wrote...

Wow, you summed up the difficulties I have with a silent char much better than what I did earlier    =)    I often had to try to decipher how something had been said from how Leliana and the rest of them reacted. I believed that I had chosen a nice polite answer, the person opposite has a very very different reaction and I sit there afterwards trying to read and tone that scentence out loud to see what could have given that response. Seeing Hawke being able to show emotions while talking is also something that makes me happy to play with a voice and animations. They don't have to go overbord with the animations, but I appriciate that it isn't the same... hm.... cardboard-face of my poor beloved warden.

This.  I've never understood how people see their silent character saying "Hello" and pretending it's sarcastic... only to have the voiced NPC say in a warm, honest voice "I've missed you too!"  It's like... how can a silent PC offer you any immersion when the NPCs can yank you right out of you imaginings in one word.  A voiced PC might remove some of a player's ability to imagine... but it offers a smoother play experience.

I'd like to think that it's because people are smart, that they can ratinonalize, and perhaps, that we are very good with our imaginations that can project the intones, intents and emotions of the conversations. The creation of a VO just has the creator making his/her guess at what I want to project into the conversations and that, in turn, simply genralizes the convos as a one size fits all, that is not role-playing IMO.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[Realmzmaster]

Well, all I know is that one group or the other is going to be disappointed. Bioware will have to make the decision. You cannot please everyone and it is a mistake to try.

[erynnar]

Deganis76 wrote...

I think the devs summed up the problem with the silent protagonist in using the example how it was almost impossible not to flirt with Zevran...even if you were just trying to be his friend. It was actually quite a funny little snippet.

Yes, and I never wound up with nothing but heart icon choices just from talking to Anders, because the Voiced Protagonist took care of that all right. Yeppers, sure it did. Another bs/marketing line and again utter twaddle.

[lobi]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
I've never understood how people see their silent character saying "Hello" and pretending it's sarcastic... only to have the voiced NPC say in a warm, honest voice "I've missed you too!"  It's like... how can a silent PC offer you any immersion when the NPCs can yank you right out of you imaginings in one word.  A voiced PC might remove some of a player's ability to imagine... but it offers a smoother play experience.

By smoother do you mean automatic? Do you let an oceans waves push you over for giggles or do you body surf for the challenge, excitment and the deeper understanding of the wave?
Other NPC's not getting the sarcasm can enhance the already profound sense of dislocation some wardens are experiencing, not all lack the desire to surrender to their imaginations and ignore the impulse to control the reactions of those around them to conform to their own inner monologue.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

erynnar wrote...
I proved nothing except your talk of knowing what people felt back in the day when art of any kind was first created. As to Warhol being art, his works are considered art by some and crass comercialism by other and childish scriblliing by others. Art is not proven. It doesn't fall under logic at the end of the day. Look at Pollack. There will always be those that think the art is crap or brilliant. Much like DA2. It proves nothing except that no one will have the exact same opinion or feeling as those are unique to us as individuals.

And I don't mind going back to college. I don't mind using my brains for something other than keeping my ears from clanking together. Hence part of my dislike for the hold your hand, interactive movie, with Fed ex quests that is DA2.

Art is proven.  Time proves it.  I know exactly what the Greeks felt walking into the Acropolis.  That's art.  I know exactly what Goya wanted me to feel when I see soldiers killing an unarmed man.  That's art.  Art is proven.  The feeling carries through time.

I don't like Pollack.  I don't like Warhol.  Is either one art?  Time will tell.  DA2 proves nothing.  But how will it be seen in five or ten years?  As the first iteration of a great new formula for fantasy RPGs?  Going back to lobi's post about it being teh debil, it is way too soon to tell.  Time will tell.

You don't need college to exercise your brain.  Make your own thoughts.  ;)  You'll find better things in real life to dislike other than the mechanics of a video game. 

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:49 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Tommy6860 wrote...

I'd like to think that it's because people are smart, that they can can ratinonalize, and perhaps, that we are very good with our imaginations that can project the intones, intents and emotions of the conversations. The creation of a VO just has the creator making hie/her guess at what I want to project in the conversations and that, in turn, simply genralizes the convos as a oen size fits all, that is not role-playing IMO.

If they're smart and can overlay their imagining over what they hear then the PC's voiceover shouldn't matter, I think.  A voiced PC then becomes best of both worlds... the "silent PC" fans can just ignore it, and the "voiced PC" fans can have their candy. 

:)  We all win!

[Atakuma]

lobi wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
I've never understood how people see their silent character saying "Hello" and pretending it's sarcastic... only to have the voiced NPC say in a warm, honest voice "I've missed you too!"  It's like... how can a silent PC offer you any immersion when the NPCs can yank you right out of you imaginings in one word.  A voiced PC might remove some of a player's ability to imagine... but it offers a smoother play experience.

By smoother do you mean automatic? Do you let an oceans waves push you over for giggles or do you body surf for the challenge, excitment and the deeper understanding of the wave?
Other NPC's not getting the sarcasm can enhance the already profound sense of dislocation some wardens are experiencing, not all lack the desire to surrender to their imaginations and ignore the impulse to control the reactions of those around them to conform to their own inner monologue.

Some people simply don't want to do the mental gymnastics required to reach that kind of rationalization.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

lobi wrote...

By smoother do you mean automatic? Do you let an oceans waves push you over for giggles or do you body surf for the challenge, excitment and the deeper understanding of the wave?

I think your example fails.  Voice acting isn't an ocean wave.

Other NPC's not getting the sarcasm can enhance the already profound sense of dislocation some wardens are experiencing, not all lack the desire to surrender to their imaginations and ignore the impulse to control the reactions of those around them to conform to their own inner monologue.

So why complain?  Just imagine around it.  Then we all win!  Voice PC fans hear the voice and no voice fans have their imagination.  

[Tommy6860]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

I'd like to think that it's because people are smart, that they can can ratinonalize, and perhaps, that we are very good with our imaginations that can project the intones, intents and emotions of the conversations. The creation of a VO just has the creator making hie/her guess at what I want to project in the conversations and that, in turn, simply genralizes the convos as a oen size fits all, that is not role-playing IMO.

If they're smart and can overlay their imagining over what they hear then the PC's voiceover shouldn't matter, I think.  A voiced PC then becomes best of both worlds... the "silent PC" fans can just ignore it, and the "voiced PC" fans can have their candy. 

:)  We all win!

Well, that's a problem now isn't it? Since I am actually hearing the VO, there's no imagiantion to it really and I am hearing the voice of another person's intonations, not one with the intone I intend from within my own mind. We do this in conversations with people everyday as we think out our discussions with the intent of the moment.. Add the silly emoticons, then I have typically garnered a response that I didn't expect, just speaks volumes.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:03 .

[lobi]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
I think your example fails. Voice acting isn't an ocean wave.

So why complain?  Just imagine around it.  Then we all win!  Voice PC fans hear the voice and no voice fans have their imagination. 

Analogy not example, even though I think you mean simile, which it was not.

My answer is, because I would like to use the story as a framework within which to apply my imagination. Unless you are being snarky and suggest that I ignore the story compleatly?

Tommy6860 wrote...

Well, that's a problem now isn't it? Since I am actually hearing the VO, there's no imagiantion to it really and I am hearing the voice of another person's intonations, not one with the intone I intend from within my own mind. We do this in conversations with people everyday as we think out our discussions with the intent of the moment.. Add the silly emoticons, than I have typlically garnered a response that I didn't expect, just speaks volumes.

I agree with Tommy, esp about the emoticon issue.

Modifié par lobi, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:06 .

[erynnar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

erynnar wrote...
I proved nothing except your talk of knowing what people felt back in the day when art of any kind was first created. As to Warhol being art, his works are considered art by some and crass comercialism by other and childish scriblliing by others. Art is not proven. It doesn't fall under logic at the end of the day. Look at Pollack. There will always be those that think the art is crap or brilliant. Much like DA2. It proves nothing except that no one will have the exact same opinion or feeling as those are unique to us as individuals.

And I don't mind going back to college. I don't mind using my brains for something other than keeping my ears from clanking together. Hence part of my dislike for the hold your hand, interactive movie, with Fed ex quests that is DA2.

Art is proven.  Time proves it.  I know exactly what the Greeks felt walking into the Acropolis.  That's art.  I know exactly what Goya wanted me to feel when I see soldiers killing an unarmed man.  That's art.  Art is proven.  The feeling carries through time.

I don't like Pollack.  I don't like Warhol.  Is either one art?  Time will tell.  DA2 proves nothing.  But how will it be seen in five or ten years?  As the first iteration of a great new formula for fantasy RPGs?  Going back to lobi's post about it being teh debil, it is way too soon to tell.  Time will tell.

You don't need college to exercise your brain.  Make your own thoughts.  ;)  You'll find better things in real life to dislike other than the mechanics of a video game. 

No, you don't know what Goya meant for you to feel. You get a glimpse into what he was feeling. Maybe. It's like poetry, it isn't proven. ****** is considered art, so is Warhol, so is Goya, and Picasso's abstracts. Whether you like them or not.

And college, an indpendent course, reading a book, writing, painting, or doing a crossword puzzle; I hardly need your help in exercising my mind, thank you very much.

[Tommy6860]

erynnar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

erynnar wrote...
I proved nothing except your talk of knowing what people felt back in the day when art of any kind was first created. As to Warhol being art, his works are considered art by some and crass comercialism by other and childish scriblliing by others. Art is not proven. It doesn't fall under logic at the end of the day. Look at Pollack. There will always be those that think the art is crap or brilliant. Much like DA2. It proves nothing except that no one will have the exact same opinion or feeling as those are unique to us as individuals.

And I don't mind going back to college. I don't mind using my brains for something other than keeping my ears from clanking together. Hence part of my dislike for the hold your hand, interactive movie, with Fed ex quests that is DA2.

Art is proven.  Time proves it.  I know exactly what the Greeks felt walking into the Acropolis.  That's art.  I know exactly what Goya wanted me to feel when I see soldiers killing an unarmed man.  That's art.  Art is proven.  The feeling carries through time.

I don't like Pollack.  I don't like Warhol.  Is either one art?  Time will tell.  DA2 proves nothing.  But how will it be seen in five or ten years?  As the first iteration of a great new formula for fantasy RPGs?  Going back to lobi's post about it being teh debil, it is way too soon to tell.  Time will tell.

You don't need college to exercise your brain.  Make your own thoughts.  ;)  You'll find better things in real life to dislike other than the mechanics of a video game. 

ent course, reading a book, writing, painting, or doing a crossword puzzle; I hardly need your help in exercising my mind, thank you very much.

*imagines some abstract looking treadmill running at high speed in your head*. Is <this art

Modifié par Tommy6860, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Well, that's a problem now isn't it? Since I am actually hearing the VO, there's no imagiantion to it really and I am hearing the voice of another person's intonations, not one with the intone I intend from within my own mind. We do this in conversations with people everyday as we think out our discussions with the intent of the moment.. Add the silly emoticons, then I have typically garnered a response that I didn't expect, just speaks volumes.

I think I see what you're saying.  Your imagination isn't good enough!  You made the point that people can imagine and rationalize, but once you hear a PC's voice you stop being able to imagine.  That's too bad.

:crying:

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .