23 réponses à ce sujet

[serendipitydoda]

Signs that the end is near:
No new patches to the server/game engine.
Master server is down. (though we all hope it will return)

How long till GameSpy dropps NWN?

I think the time has come for Bioware to release the sourcecode for NWN1.
It's not unreasonable we've seen id Software regularly release the source for their legacy game engines.

What say you BioWare?  Will we ever see the Aurora Engine source?

I believe the time has come for a community Client/Server/Toolset that is compatable either directly or indirectly(via conversion utility) to replace NWN1.

Without the source I suggest we take a look at an opensource game engine known as Crystal Space that we could build on. It is used by a MMORPG called PlaneShift http://www.planeshift.it/sources.html

I would like to see an expansion of the potential audience by creating an additional 2D client that could be run on lower end computers/smartphones.

A peer to peer replacement for GameSpy may be necessary to allow people to find servers.

Projects like CEP and NWNX show that members of the NWN community have the skill to do it.

My quesiton to the community is... are we still interested?

[HipMaestro]

serendipitydoda wrote...
A peer to peer replacement for GameSpy may be necessary to allow people to find servers.

Superfly_2000 swears by X-Fire and there is also neverwinterconnections.com.  If any prospective servers slip through the cracks, why not just post them in their own sticky with direct connect and web site addies within the PW subforum?

My quesiton to the community is... are we still interested?

I would instead describe it as "discouraged" by peripheral events, but still interested.  Fans of NWN do not say die easily, it is too ingrained, so it matters only on the enthusiasm generated by individuals that spark others to follow suit.  Zeal is infectious and we still see new faces here in the forum and who knows how many have DL'd from GoG but never registered with BSN? And there have been many lately that are revisiting NWN after an extensive hiatus.

I would suggest that if the passion is there for any project, go to it.  Projects need drivers rather than pom-pom wavers.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:57 .

[serendipitydoda]

Lowlander wrote...

iD software is a private company still
in the hands of the original designers/developers. So if they want to
release source, they do.

Bioware exists only as a marketing name
for EA corporation. It is unlikely that they will ever release the
source for anything.

I suspected as much.  If they even respond to the request for source in any way I will be surprised.

HipMaestro wrote...

I would instead describe it as "discouraged" by peripheral events, but still interested.  Fans of NWN do not say die easily, it is too ingrained, so it matters only on the enthusiasm generated by individuals that spark others to follow suit.  Zeal is infectious and we still see new faces here in the forum and who knows how many have DL'd from GoG but never registered with BSN? And there have been many lately that are revisiting NWN after an extensive hiatus.

I would suggest that if the passion is there for any project, go to it.  Projects need drivers rather than pom-pom wavers.

Thanks for the response.  I'm trying go gague interest in a project like this.  It may take some time but I intend to proceede.

[FunkySwerve]

HG's build team has been hunting for our next platform. We've considered everything from the next Morrowind to open-source stuff like you linked. I found this thread particularly interesting:
Link

There are two major obstacles - ip and models. I'm considering developing my own ip, but the amount of modeling that would need to be done before we even approached the current variety available in NWN, boggles the mind.

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:18 .

[Sethan_1]

Interested. My skills are limited, but its definitely worth doing.

[serendipitydoda]

FunkySwerve wrote...

HG's build team has been hunting for our next platform. We've considered everything from the next Morrowind to open-source stuff like you linked. I found this thread particularly interesting:
Link

There are two major obstacles - ip and models. I'm considering developing my own ip, but the amount of modeling that would need to be done before we even approached the current variety available in NWN, boggles the mind.

Funky

Thanks Funky,

Your response is a good example of what I'm looking for.  

The goal will be to take advantage of NWN data files with a activly maintined open source game engine.  Something that won't be shutdown unless the community stops caring.

I haven't had a chance to go through DevMaster's entire engine list(it's massive).  A quick search focusing on Active C/C++ based open source engines yeilded: www.opennel.org/confluence/display/NEL/NeLProjects

It's a library which makes it very appealing.  I'll do a bit more investigating, but at first glance it seems to have all the necessary features to roll a NWN clone.

Modifié par serendipitydoda, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:18 .

[FunkySwerve]

serendipitydoda wrote...

The goal will be to take advantage of NWN data files with a activly maintined open source game engine.

You couldn't use NWN data files - it's forbidden by the EULA, and I can't imagine bioware/EA would want any kind of competition. Hence, the rediculous amounts of modeling.

Funky

[Greyfort]

My hopes for nwn, would be they have the core system run on default or something like a system stack...

custom system ran...if no custom func/system run default. Then we all could do wonderus things.

Although nwnx2 for linux has realy opened up programing nwn the nwnx2 nwnx_funcs is catching up for windows but not quite fast enough for our creative ideas. and with linux vers already done. You have quite alot of possibilities.

I'm a nwn junkie have been since it came out. It is only our imaginations that lack. It reminds me of the computer age pencil and paper redbox/blue box edition. NWN is a clasic right up there with Ever Quest which was out before NWN.

I agree with Funky, it already has so much content and customization, that with linux and the nwnx2 extender and the linux functions you realy can do any thing. Look at HG, or StarWarsRise of the republic, or star craft..all 3 of those servers are custom. oh and look at or D20mm CEP.

You realy can do anything with NWN

[Shadooow]

serendipitydoda wrote...

FunkySwerve wrote...

HG's build team has been hunting for our next platform. We've considered everything from the next Morrowind to open-source stuff like you linked. I found this thread particularly interesting:
Link

There are two major obstacles - ip and models. I'm considering developing my own ip, but the amount of modeling that would need to be done before we even approached the current variety available in NWN, boggles the mind.

Funky

Thanks Funky,

Your response is a good example of what I'm looking for.  

The goal will be to take advantage of NWN data files with a activly maintined open source game engine.  Something that won't be shutdown unless the community stops caring.

I haven't had a chance to go through DevMaster's entire engine list(it's massive).  A quick search focusing on Active C/C++ based open source engines yeilded: www.opennel.org/confluence/display/NEL/NeLProjects

It's a library which makes it very appealing.  I'll do a bit more investigating, but at first glance it seems to have all the necessary features to roll a NWN clone.

There have been already one project like this, dont know their name, but they had the same goals. Try to PM pkpeachykeen.

[serendipitydoda]

FunkySwerve wrote...

serendipitydoda wrote...

The goal will be to take advantage of NWN data files with a activly maintined open source game engine.

You couldn't use NWN data files - it's forbidden by the EULA, and I can't imagine bioware/EA would want any kind of competition. Hence, the rediculous amounts of modeling.

Funky

Your right Funky,

Looking at section 3 of the EULA makes
my head spin but pretty much it seems like a community NWN engine
would be at their mercy.
It would be nice to hear from
somebody with Bioware if a project like this would be encouraged or
attacked with litigation?

Perhaps I should reiterate that
this would be a free to use open source project.

Bioware/EA
would only benefit because it would encourage new people to buy
existing content they don't have to spend a dime on or put any effort
into. Bioware/EA is slowly abandoning support for NWN so basically
it would be a win/win for them and us.

As for models I know of
at least one person that has replaced a lot of the NWN models and
might be willing to contribute to a project like this.

[serendipitydoda]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
There have been already one project like this, dont know their name, but they had the same goals. Try to PM pkpeachykeen.

Thanks I'll do that.

[TSMDude]

I will throw any skill I have behind someone who does indeed head this route.

[serendipitydoda]

TSMDude wrote...

I will throw any skill I have behind someone who does indeed head this route.

Thanks...  I have a feeling we will need it.

[serendipitydoda]

Modifié par serendipitydoda, 27 juillet 2011 - 12:42 .

[Mad.Hatter]

serendipitydoda wrote...

As for models I know of
at least one person that has replaced a lot of the NWN models and
might be willing to contribute to a project like this.

Release or it didn't happen!

[ehye_khandee]

Seeing as the EULA specifically prohibits use of the content for any other game, you can take it as read that EA / Bioware put that there for a reason and WOULD CERTAINLY address in a legal forum any transgressions. Seeing as we have VERY LITTLE WORD FROM BIOWARE on issues we find very important today (gamespy), you are very unlikely to get a reply from Bioware on your request. Companies don't put clauses in the EULA like that unless they intend them to be followed and are prepared to take action as needed.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[WebShaman]

If one is using NWN as the basis for the game, isn't it NWN, then?

I mean, hooking into the exe and passing ints, etc to another "engine" is no different from what NWNX2 does, is it?

The PRC rewrote the Combat Engine, for example. As long as it is the same game, using those resources plus whatever others, it has to still be legal, right?

[serendipitydoda]

Mad.Hatter wrote...

serendipitydoda wrote...

As for models I know of
at least one person that has replaced a lot of the NWN models and
might be willing to contribute to a project like this.

Release or it didn't happen!

Don't worry I'll be looking into it soon.

[serendipitydoda]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Seeing as the EULA specifically prohibits use of the content for any other game, you can take it as read that EA / Bioware put that there for a reason and WOULD CERTAINLY address in a legal forum any transgressions. Seeing as we have VERY LITTLE WORD FROM BIOWARE on issues we find very important today (gamespy), you are very unlikely to get a reply from Bioware on your request. Companies don't put clauses in the EULA like that unless they intend them to be followed and are prepared to take action as needed.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Reading over the EULA there are ways to prevent the game engine itself from coming under fire.  It's the users that would ultimately be in violation.

WebShaman wrote...

If one is using NWN as the basis for the game, isn't it NWN, then?

I mean, hooking into the exe and passing ints, etc to another "engine" is no different from what NWNX2 does, is it?

The
PRC rewrote the Combat Engine, for example. As long as it is the same
game, using those resources plus whatever others, it has to still be
legal, right?

I think there are a lot of 3rd party apps that would technically violate the NWN EULA.  Quite simply(and this is of couse my opnion) anything that enhances the game and ends up putting money in Bioware/EA's pocket is going to be ignored.

[Sylrae]

Hmm.

I'm thinking that so long as you still require a legitimate version of NWN to run it you might be able to get away with it... so long as you're not making any profit, and at that point, im not sure if it matters if you require a legit copy of nwn or not.

I will say I'd very much appreciate and enjoy a facelift to nwn, as well as an updated game engine ala nwn reborn. Not sure I need the lightweight client, but I could definitely go for a client that either works on the newest version of Open GL (something that runs nicely on newer cards) or that only requires directx (though that excludes the linux/mac users).

If you're going for portability, a java client would run on anything, but would be slower.

I will say this: If you go ahead with something like this, where its in fairly fuzzy eula territory, do not distribute any of the original game data files with it; just to be safe. Realistically, requiring legit NWN keys should basically ensure they have nwn, especially if you can get it to check the master server. It would be encouraging a purchase of their product, even if its just for the keys.

I'd like to ask one thing though: Do we need a whole new client? Why can't we just update the existing client? (the whole 2d on a netbook idea aside).

Personally I think the client just needs some hacking (allow other classes at level one, de-hard code some more things, implement races and subraces similar to nwn2, set up the combat system, active skill checks, combat modes, etc and all feats to be editable via script/2da instead of hardcoded), and use the bif manager to add in nwshader as a new patch. (and I suppose some openGL fixes to make it compatible with more video cards would help too) Then its really just an issue of updating the character models (a daunting task, but they're dated and hideous at the moment, including much of the CEP stuff.) Moving to a modern mesh system instead of the piecemeal characters in nwn1 would certainly be a big task, but alot smaller than a substitute game engine plus 3d models.

Modifié par Sylrae, 28 juillet 2011 - 10:53 .

[WebShaman]

I do not think we necessarily need a new client - but we definitely need to have some sort of Lexicon on all the different "hooks" that have been developed so far, for NWMain.exe

Then we can see what is possible and what still needs to be done to get NWN modernized.

[FunkySwerve]

[quote]serendipitydoda wrote...

Reading over the EULA there are ways to prevent the game engine itself from coming under fire.  It's the users that would ultimately be in violation.
[/quote]

No, you would be in clear violation, and subject to suit.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

If one is using NWN as the basis for the game, isn't it NWN, then?

I mean, hooking into the exe and passing ints, etc to another "engine" is no different from what NWNX2 does, is it?

The
PRC rewrote the Combat Engine, for example. As long as it is the same
game, using those resources plus whatever others, it has to still be
legal, right?[/quote]

I think there are a lot of 3rd party apps that would technically violate the NWN EULA.  Quite simply(and this is of couse my opnion) anything that enhances the game and ends up putting money in Bioware/EA's pocket is going to be ignored.

[/quote]
Hacking the engine is precisely what NWNX does, and yes, it's a EULA violation. Bioware et al. have declined to take any action, and in fact have acted to support the efforts of NWNX, giving rise to a colorable legal defense to breach (waiver) when they sue you for doing this.

Would they sue you? They would if you did what Higher Ground is planning, which is the construction of a competing game (and remember, it's competition for their players' dollars even if you don't charge). Even if you're not doing that, you wouldn't be generating much revenue for them, and by ignoring you they would be weakening any prospective suit on the same basis - they waived violations in the past. Frankly, I don't see them looking favorably on it, and I'm not willing to gamble a bunch of dev time on it. It's not the kind of suit where the court is likely to award attourney's fees, since both sides have a colorable case, so even if you won it would probably cost you a pretty penny - money you could've just spent on licensing an engine.

Which gets us back to my initial post. Great idea, but you need a ton of modeling work done. Some engines offer pre-made content at an additional price. See, e.g.,
Realm Crafter
There are others with toolsets very similar to NWN's, at least in principle:
Hero Engine
BigWorld

I've looked at around a dozen, but I'm still not committed to any particular one.

Funky

[serendipitydoda]

FunkySwerve wrote...
Hacking the engine is precisely what NWNX does, and yes, it's a EULA violation. Bioware et al. have declined to take any action, and in fact have acted to support the efforts of NWNX, giving rise to a colorable legal defense to breach (waiver) when they sue you for doing this.

Would they sue you? They would if you did what Higher Ground is planning, which is the construction of a competing game (and remember, it's competition for their players' dollars even if you don't charge). Even if you're not doing that, you wouldn't be generating much revenue for them, and by ignoring you they would be weakening any prospective suit on the same basis - they waived violations in the past. Frankly, I don't see them looking favorably on it, and I'm not willing to gamble a bunch of dev time on it. It's not the kind of suit where the court is likely to award attourney's fees, since both sides have a colorable case, so even if you won it would probably cost you a pretty penny - money you could've just spent on licensing an engine.

Which gets us back to my initial post. Great idea, but you need a ton of modeling work done. Some engines offer pre-made content at an additional price. See, e.g.,
Realm Crafter
There are others with toolsets very similar to NWN's, at least in principle:
Hero Engine
BigWorld

I've looked at around a dozen, but I'm still not committed to any particular one.

Funky

I can't argue with you Funky.  Unless Bioware/EA releases the source for Aurora and gives us their blessing a project that uses the original data files will be at risk.

Makes me wonder if anyone has been able to get any response from Bioware/EA on any subject related to NWN 1 lately?

Modifié par serendipitydoda, 30 juillet 2011 - 09:27 .