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Is Dragon Age 2 as bad as fans say it is?


309 réponses à ce sujet

#276
Yrkoon

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aftohsix wrote...

Jabba L4 wrote...

Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go take some more blurry, obscured, low-to-medium-settings pictures of Triss, so I can do an effective side-by-side comparison between her and some other games' characters, to justify each one's merits.


Because this was definitely relevant.  Read back a few pages.  Mr. Epler made a statement about insulting other users whether directly or indirectly still shouldn't be done.  I know I'm not the best example around here but I have been trying.


Do you have a valid counter?


Because There's exactly zero insults directed at any users in that passage you're quoting or in the entire post it came from..

<gag>

#277
b09boy

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It would depend on the fans.  Some are truly unreasonable about the negativity to the point where even positives with no negative aspects are disregarded and torn apart.  However, such people should not be the central subjects to represent the backlash against the game.

So let's just take the simple question: is Dragon Age 2 bad?  By most technical rights, yes.  This does not mean it cannot be enjoyed, however; there are plenty of technically bad games out there which can be enjoyed for this reason or that.

Why do I say it's bad?  Because when comparing the game to others released both today and in the past decade, Dragon Age 2 does not favor very well in any facet, be it gameplay, RPG style choices or inventory management, exploration, or story.  It has numerous flaws in its core design (largely due to trying to make a hybrid action/tactical game out of a game engine originally created only for the tactical aspects), is extremely repetitive and bland in environments, enemies and enemy encounters, and has an incredibly flawed narrative which was fumbled from the opening cutscene all the way to the ending credits, largely due to the writers attempting to take on too many story elements at once and not coordinating them properly.  This is all without touching on graphics which are a decade out of date, or more personal opinions such as the cartoonish art style.

#278
hoorayforicecream

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Jabba L4 wrote...

It's rather funny that you should bring up microtransactions at this time, in view of the recent upheaval coming from the EVE Online community after the so-called 'monoclegate debacle', and with CCP representatives themselves in the following interview confessing that 'this is one of the largest instances of users unsubscribing en masse from their service'; disregard the subsequent paragraphs of corporate representatives attempting to downplay things as per usual.


Why should you trust what they say in one aspect, but not in another? There is no reason to believe otherwise. Unless of course, you only want to accept statements that support your argument and ignore the stuff that doesn't.

It's also very interesting to note that the guy you linked us to talking in that video was quite aware that a decrease in their game's playerbase was imminent after the update, but that the team's end-goal was to further increase profit margins with microtransactions, as the game does not generate any revenue without players making use of Battlefield Heroes' microtransactions service. All things considered, it's very rare to see an instance where a game that was 'free' to begin with get ruined by microtransactions in general ( unless they screw up entirely ) -- it's a different market to assess.


Actually, not true. He *thought* that a decrease in their game's playerbase was imminent (look at post date: beginning of December, 2009) because that was when they implemented those changes. The data in the slides from after that shows no abnormal spikes or dips in either new player signups or player churn. So... in this particular case, he thought X, he was wrong. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go take some more blurry, obscured, low-to-medium-settings pictures of Triss, so I can do an effective side-by-side comparison between her and some other games' characters, to justify each one's merits.


Both games were played on high settings (as I mentioned in the blog), at 1680x1050 resolutions, and the screenshots then cropped. I don't know why you say the shots of Triss were obscured, they were all using the Witcher 2's normal conversation system over the course of the game. If you like, when I return home from work, I can link you to all of the shots I used for the Triss comparisons since Steam is kind enough to provide cloud storage for screenshots. 

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:40 .


#279
Morroian

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Night Prowler76 wrote...

It was one of the EA big wigs who said this, but the main thing to remember is that when he said 2 million copies, he means 2 million copies shipped to retailers, not actually sold to consumers.

AFAIK EA still get paid for those copies.

#280
Morroian

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b09boy wrote...

So let's just take the simple question: is Dragon Age 2 bad?  By most technical rights, yes.  This does not mean it cannot be enjoyed, however; there are plenty of technically bad games out there which can be enjoyed for this reason or that.

Why do I say it's bad?  Because when comparing the game to others released both today and in the past decade, Dragon Age 2 does not favor very well in any facet, be it gameplay, RPG style choices or inventory management, exploration, or story.  It has numerous flaws in its core design (largely due to trying to make a hybrid action/tactical game out of a game engine originally created only for the tactical aspects), is extremely repetitive and bland in environments, enemies and enemy encounters, and has an incredibly flawed narrative which was fumbled from the opening cutscene all the way to the ending credits, largely due to the writers attempting to take on too many story elements at once and not coordinating them properly.  This is all without touching on graphics which are a decade out of date, 

So what were DAO's graphics? 20 years out of date? To me DA2 looks better than any other game played this year, although this doesn't include games such as TW2 or Crysis 2 neither of which I intend to play ever. Such hyperbolic statements are unnecessary and I dare say most of what you would regard as technical faults are really just personal preferences. Objectively the majopr faults are the recycled areas and the prevalence of wave combat. 

#281
Sidney

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b09boy wrote...

Why do I say it's bad?  Because when comparing the game to others released both today and in the past decade, Dragon Age 2 does not favor very well in any facet, be it gameplay, RPG style choices or inventory management, exploration, or story.  It has numerous flaws in its core design (largely due to trying to make a hybrid action/tactical game out of a game engine originally created only for the tactical aspects), is extremely repetitive and bland in environments, enemies and enemy encounters, and has an incredibly flawed narrative which was fumbled from the opening cutscene all the way to the ending credits, largely due to the writers attempting to take on too many story elements at once and not coordinating them properly.  This is all without touching on graphics which are a decade out of date, or more personal opinions such as the cartoonish art style.


Gameplay: Despite the whining it is the same as DAO. Same thing, pause n' play real time combat. Nothing changed other than losing a camera view with a few more degrees of elevation - OMG stop the world!!!!

Choices: It has plenty and they're the same sorts of choices you had in DAO. What DA2 doesn't do is BLARE at you when it is time to make a BIG, IMPORTANT choice the way DAO did where you have those tentpole quests.

Inventory: The same, again. The only thing changed in inventory is that stuff that used to go into the Useless Items in DAO (gems and such) now finds its way into "junk". Wow, big change.  Mechanism and interface, again, remain the same only now it is easier to tell new stuff from old. I'm guessing compnaion armor might be inventory to you but again in terms of customization with the runes you can do more to control what your NPC's armor is like than you can in DAO where the limited number of top end armors effectively put everyone in the same armor after a point anyways.

There's nothing "action" about DA2. There's no twitch element. There's far, far more combat in DAO relative to the talky-talky parts of the game because DA2 cuts out the massive combat heavy dungeon crawls. There's no 10 hours worth of trash mob killing in the deep roads for example.

The enemies are boring but nothing about the DAO foes were better. You've still got Darkspawn, dragons, shades, denoms, ogres, blood mages, carta, bandits and so on. You don't see werewolves but then again you also don't get the Qunari in DAO to fight.  Rogues are much much tougher foes and mages are much weaker than in DAO - although once you got mana clash there was nothing tough about a DAO mage either *poof*.

Exploration is dull because you are going over the same 8 maps over and over and over. That's terrible and awful and worth an honorable mention is how the minimaps show you plces you can't actually get too.  I'll also throw in that since Kirkwall is the center of your world it is a bland and uninteresting looking center that never feels like a real city.

Graphics were cartoonish and over the top. The weapons and armor design continues to be awful in both games with oversized weapons and ridiculous looking armor but they managed to make the armor look worse in DA2.

The game has flaws but a lot of the flaws are people who makes claims, like you, that just aren't true. It is like in order to dislike it EVERYTHING must be bad not just that it has some critical flaws that hamstring it.

#282
kingjezza

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It's as **** as I think it is and and as good as somebody else thinks it is.

#283
SpEcIaLRyAn

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1. Dragon Age: Origins - Far superior to the second. It establishes its own identity with its story and characters. The plot is not as original as Bioware was most likely hoping for but the story is told so well that you won't care how original it is or nor by the games end.
2. Dragon Age: Origins: Awakening - The story and characters are not as good as the main game bu this is worthy expansion pack for a great game and in the end it gives you what you have been craving for which is MORE DRAGON AGE!
3. Dragon Age 2: While not as bad as everyone would suggest it definitely lacks any wonder. I enjoyed DA2. All in all though i felt they just tried to make it too much like ME2, a fantastic game btw, which is why it ultimately isn't as good as it couldve been. The game lacks and identity. I will say however that sometimes the plot can be unpredictable which is a good thing. The game basically makes you decide who is the real bad guy. Which is not bad by any means. However I felt the whole time the story was trying to become some big epic tale which in the en had its moments but ultimately can' measure up to origins. The characters are bit lackluster. With exception of Anders and Varric. Varric especially as hes the best character in the game. All in all DA2 is good not great.

#284
b09boy

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Morroian wrote...
So what were DAO's graphics? 20 years out of date?


About the same.  DA2 wasn't exactly a huge step up over Origins.  If you were to include detail and style preference, many would actually say Origins has better graphics.

To me DA2 looks better than any other game played this year, although this doesn't include games such as TW2 or Crysis 2 neither of which I intend to play ever.


What about most every other game released this year?  Screenshots of DA2 can, and have been, easily be compared unfavorably to games made nearly a decade ago.

Such hyperbolic statements are unnecessary and I dare say most of what you would regard as technical faults are really just personal preferences. Objectively the majopr faults are the recycled areas and the prevalence of wave combat.


Then I see you have crouched down, bent over, and managed to bury your head between your cheeks in order to ignore the faults of the game to justify your enjoyment of it.  Well actually I already saw that at the beginning of your post when you stated the game looks better than any this year and you will never be playing those which do look better for no concievable reason.

Other technical faults?  The game playing by completely different rules than the player which allows for weaker classes to be stronger than they should be for artificial challenge, the pure HP system which leaves many taking much longer to kill than they should (again for artificial challenege), the ability to manually dodge in a system originally created for character skill to determine such occurences which leaves kiting as far too easy and a number of enemies which should be difficult as laughably easy, the dialogue wheel poorly representing what will be said or done creating a large disjoint between player and character... I could go on for a long, long time.  And this doesn't touch on the story which I could (and have written) large, numerous page essays about all the technical faults it holds.

#285
b09boy

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Sidney wrote...

Gameplay: Despite the whining it is the same as DAO. Same thing, pause n' play real time combat. Nothing changed other than losing a camera view with a few more degrees of elevation - OMG stop the world!!!!


Don't be foolish just for the sake of being foolish.  The list of differences is as obvious as it is long.

Not bothering to respond to the rest of that.  Mostly the same thing; you state something ridiculously and obnoxiously wrong in order to give DA2 a favorable comparison.

#286
stewie1974

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I'm a fan of both.
I know dragon age 3 will meet exactly the same response as dragon age 2 has.

I'd even like to wager that -right- now.

If you are asking because you are considering buying, consider renting first to try it out. I do wish more people would take this approach voting with their wallets than screaming blue bloody murder because they preordered.

A lot of fans were disapointed with M.E 2 aswell...

Personally sure there are differences in game play and stylings, but at the end of the day if I want to play Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins I already have those games to get that experience.

Nobody is forcing gamers to buy the games, just rent first in future.... if you like the game then buy it..either way, voting with your wallet will have a bigger impact on the decisions people take the games.

Again. I like DA2 , I was disapointed with the recycled maps though.

#287
Gloatie

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"Gameplay: Despite the whining it is the same as DAO. Same thing, pause n' play real time combat. Nothing changed other than losing a camera view with a few more degrees of elevation - OMG stop the world!!!!"

This is simplistic and inflamatory, but makes a good point.

I would even say that DA2 has more tactical depth. The most common factors that "hack and slash" detractors seem to focus on are the lowered combat angle and faster animations. I only very occasionally find lack of top-down view a bother. Combat animations are better, imo, in DA2. The cross-class combos are integral and way beyond DAO. Tactics macros have been vastly improved.

I don't notice people who dislike the tactical/combat aspect mention what difficulty level they play at very often. I suspect many are playing at normal. I could see the "improvements" being lost on them at that difficulty. (I am not insulting anyone! This could even be construed as a point against Bioware for not making default difficulty a bit better balanced. I think the over-all game balance is actually better than DAO too; but that is debatable.)

I am just addressing tactical aspects here. Enemy waves and their means of entering combat is a whole other discussion, in my book. It does shoe-horn into tactics; but it is an issue in itself, I think.

#288
Morroian

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b09boy wrote...

Morroian wrote...
So what were DAO's graphics? 20 years out of date?


About the same.  DA2 wasn't exactly a huge step up over Origins.  If you were to include detail and style preference, many would actually say Origins has better graphics. 

I agree that some do but thats personal preference.

b09boy wrote...

To me DA2 looks better than any other game played this year, although this doesn't include games such as TW2 or Crysis 2 neither of which I intend to play ever.

What about most every other game released this year?  Screenshots of DA2 can, and have been, easily be compared unfavorably to games made nearly a decade ago.

Which probably comes back to the style. Do you have a cite for those comparisons?


b09boy wrote...

Other technical faults?  The game playing by completely different rules than the player which allows for weaker classes to be stronger than they should be for artificial challenge, the pure HP system which leaves many taking much longer to kill than they should (again for artificial challenege), the ability to manually dodge in a system originally created for character skill to determine such occurences which leaves kiting as far too easy and a number of enemies which should be difficult as laughably easy, the dialogue wheel poorly representing what will be said or done creating a large disjoint between player and character... I could go on for a long, long time.  And this doesn't touch on the story which I could (and have written) large, numerous page essays about all the technical faults it holds.

None of which bothers me therefore they aren't faults IMHO just design decisions. Heck I've just finished playing Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising and the final boss fight was very similar and this in a tactical game.

Modifié par Morroian, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:54 .


#289
Lawliet89

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Yes and no. I enjoyed the combat and storyline to some extent (save the abrupt ending which gives us less of a closure to Hawke's story than anything else).

I did not enjoy the waves of enemies though.

#290
Sidney

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b09boy wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Gameplay: Despite the whining it is the same as DAO. Same thing, pause n' play real time combat. Nothing changed other than losing a camera view with a few more degrees of elevation - OMG stop the world!!!!


Don't be foolish just for the sake of being foolish.  The list of differences is as obvious as it is long.

Not bothering to respond to the rest of that.  Mostly the same thing; you state something ridiculously and obnoxiously wrong in order to give DA2 a favorable comparison.


Really it is such a long list you can't manage any thing? 

The game plays the same, whatever chnages are mostly cosmetic in terms of a presentation layer (animations) but the mechanisms haven't altered fundamentally.  Other than the botched attack button thing on the 360  at release (which was a laughable gaff and stunningly sloppy work) you are still controlling your party members targets, selecting their powers (or writing scripts), moving them about, attributes and stats control everything. There's no ME2 "shooterfication" of anything - ironcially there is no "Awesome Button" in DA2 after all the talk. The CCC add a level of depth not in DAO and the upgraded tactics options are a clear improvement over DAO.  It feels faster, by design, than DAO but the slow combat wasn't a feature of DAO - no one wanted their warrior to slowly work into position to attack something or be unable to intercept a foes running towards a mage.

Encounter design is bad, and much worse thanks to the paratroopers but I'm breaking that off as separate from combat mechanisms.

#291
In Exile

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Yrkoon wrote...
Really?   Do we actually  have to explain the concept of representative  sampling to you guys?


Is it representative, though? People are far more likely to express displeasure when they're emotionally involved. If most reviews are "DA2 is a piece of **** compared to DA:O"  it's not the same as "DA2 is a bad game". 

#292
stoicsentry2

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Yes, it's that bad. It's... that bad.

#293
Joy Divison

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Sidney wrote...

Really it is such a long list you can't manage any thing? 

The game plays the same, whatever chnages are mostly cosmetic in terms of a presentation layer (animations) but the mechanisms haven't altered fundamentally.  Other than the botched attack button thing on the 360  at release (which was a laughable gaff and stunningly sloppy work) you are still controlling your party members targets, selecting their powers (or writing scripts), moving them about, attributes and stats control everything. There's no ME2 "shooterfication" of anything - ironcially there is no "Awesome Button" in DA2 after all the talk. The CCC add a level of depth not in DAO and the upgraded tactics options are a clear improvement over DAO.  It feels faster, by design, than DAO but the slow combat wasn't a feature of DAO - no one wanted their warrior to slowly work into position to attack something or be unable to intercept a foes running towards a mage.

Encounter design is bad, and much worse thanks to the paratroopers but I'm breaking that off as separate from combat mechanisms.


LOL did you actually play Origins?  You know that game where the bad guys literally did not have hundreds of thousands of hit points whereas your 20th level dude in DA2 has about 150 :blink:

Modifié par Joy Divison, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .


#294
BlueMagitek

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To be fair, some enemies did have thousands of hitpoints. >_>

Yes, they were bosses, but they existed. ~_^

#295
b09boy

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Morroian wrote...
I agree that some do but thats personal preference.


...which is kinda what I said.

Which probably comes back to the style. Do you have a cite for those comparisons?


Seriously, guy?

http://xbox360media....21085814792.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.c...15075537662.jpg
http://pc.ign.com/do...?page=mediaFull
http://ps3media.ign....14013020713.jpg
http://pc.ign.com/do...?page=mediaFull
http://xbox360media....07052053144.jpg
http://ps3media.ign....20015911810.jpg
http://xbox360media....01023838822.jpg

This is just a small sampling from this year alone.


None
of which bothers me therefore they aren't faults IMHO just design
decisions. Heck I've just finished playing Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising
and the final boss fight was very similar and this in a tactical
game.


Just because they don't bother you doesn't mean they aren't faults.  As I said before, people enjoy technically bad things all the time.  Hell, have you never heard of Twilight or Eragon?

Sidney wrote...
Really it is such a long list you can't manage any thing? 


Actually I already did mention a few things.  Just not in response to you because I didn't find it worth the time.  If you can't see the differences then you are being a blind fanboy, one way or another.   But alright, you want a list?  I'll throw a few things at you off the top of my head.

-Combat is much faster
-Closing moves added
-Warriors now attack multiple enemies
-Armor and armor penetration has been removed for a straight health system
-Spell combos with varying effects have been removed in favor of cross class combos which all lead to the same outcome: massive damage
-Manual dodging has been enabled on top of the character's automatic dodging skill checks

I could go on for a long, long time on this, going into the functions of enemies, equipment, how tactics are fired off, the uses of spells, talents, skills and attributes, so on and etc.  Claiming the two games play the same is akin to saying Call of Duty and Arma play the same.

Modifié par b09boy, 28 juillet 2011 - 05:49 .


#296
Sacred_Fantasy

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Sidney wrote...
Choices: It has plenty and they're the same sorts of choices you had in DAO. What DA2 doesn't do is BLARE at you when it is time to make a BIG, IMPORTANT choice the way DAO did where you have those tentpole quests.

Well.. I didn't choose Harrowind to be king just to be destroyed together with Bhelen. I didn't choose the elves to end up having the werewolves. I didn't choose to sacrifice Isolde only for her to be alive again. Or choose to kill Connor just to find out that no matter what he's cannot be harmed in DAO. That's the Fact. Something DA 2 always did frequently. And I'm not talking about endgame choosing mage/templar side only. Feyneriel's Quest, Isabela's personal Quest are among the many examples out there....

Sidney wrote...
There's nothing "action" about DA2. There's no twitch element. There's far, far more combat in DAO relative to the talky-talky parts of the game because DA2 cuts out the massive combat heavy dungeon crawls. There's no 10 hours worth of trash mob killing in the deep roads for example.

Are you sure we're playing the same game? Because I keep using console command "kill all hostiles" everytime there's combat on my second, third, forth and lastly fifth play throughs. DA 2's combat is boring, repetative and tedious.

Sidney wrote...
The enemies are boring but nothing about the DAO foes were better. You've still got Darkspawn, dragons, shades, denoms, ogres, blood mages, carta, bandits and so on.

That's very true but I don't have to fight 6 thugs x3 (minimum) waves of them everytime at every random encounter.


Sidney wrote...
The game has flaws but a lot of the flaws are people who makes claims, like you, that just aren't true. It is like in order to dislike it EVERYTHING must be bad not just that it has some critical flaws that hamstring it.

That maybe true but a lot of people who defended DA 2 are either careless with their own statement or simply being ignorant to see what DA 2 is really about.

#297
Morroian

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b09boy wrote...

This is just a small sampling from this year alone.

Ah I see so you don't actually have any direct comparisons and you're taking pictures intended for publicaiton not actual graphics directly from the games. And you mentioned Crysis 2 and TW2 when I specifically said I wasn't including those, I acknowledge they have better graphics because they have top of the line engines, something a party based tactical game will never have. And as for 2 Worlds 2 I've got it and it does not look better than DA2 IMHO.

Modifié par Morroian, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:02 .


#298
AudioEpics

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I've played Two Worlds 2. In static screenshots it looks good, but when you see it in motion, you'll definitely want to go back to Dragon Age 2, at least I did.

#299
Guest_Dalira Montanti_*

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It's rather odd those that hated Origins loved da2 those that loved origins hated da2
DA2 is like marmite

Modifié par Dalira Montanti, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .


#300
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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AudioEpics wrote...

I've played Two Worlds 2. In static screenshots it looks good, but when you see it in motion, you'll definitely want to go back to Dragon Age 2, at least I did.


When on these forums, or most anywhere else, TW 2 = The Witcher 2, FYI.

As for on topic... well, depends on the fans you talk to, no?

But how about this, it's not as bad as the worst criticism and not as good as the highest praise.

Work for everyone?

Modifié par mrcrusty, 28 juillet 2011 - 08:13 .