71 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

waaait a second. just wait a second. so its ok for Tali and Garrus to think that reapers were gone, but when council and alliance decide to adopt the same stance OMG you evil traitors, how could you betray shepard like that!!! you should know that reapers are still out there, even though you were not as close to it as Tali and Garrus were - you must still believe that! Only Garrus and Tali and Liara are allowed to think that reapers are gone and shepard coming back with the whole "reapers are still out there" is not crazy or manipulated at all, even though it now seems like all these people apparently actually have a reason to believe that reaper threat is over.

you all cannot have it both ways.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:59 .

[Golden Owl]

I would say Tali's done what she could....she has alerted them to the threat:

Admiral Gerrel seems to believe the Reapers are real...when Shepard confronts him about a war with the Geth and taking back the homeworld when the Reapers are a threat....Gerrel points out the Quarians are going to need somewhere for the civilians to live when the Quarians go to war with the reapers.

[Rogue Unit]

Uh, even if they knew about there Reapers still being active, what the hell is they(Garrus and Tali) supposed to do about it? Anderson couldn't even make any progress on the issue and you expect them to make a big difference? (A quarian screaming "Synthetics!" to the council, that's funny) They don't have a ship, a crew, funding, supplies, or political pull. Unless a Mantis Sniper rifle can pierce a Reaper shields, I don't think there was much that could be done, anyway.

Best thing to do is kill as many bad guys as possible before the end.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[Made Nightwing]

AVPen wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

Ashley Wiliams/Kaiden Alenko, otherwise known as the Virmire Survivor, have been working with Anderson over these last few years on becoming a spectre and a number of classified ops for the Alliance. The latest one being an investigation into Cerberus' relation with missing human colonies. This eventually led to Horizon and while I wouldn't call their reaction to Shepard being alive pleasant. They do try to prove that the collectors and reapers are behind the missing colonies. We know that in Mass Effect 3 the Virmire survivor will be a spectre, and as such will have authority in and beyond the alliance, and access to cutting edge technology to use against the reapers.

I'm not going to get into a big discussion over this (because frankly, I had enough of it with trying to read through the "Restoring Trust with the VS" thread <_< ), but this whole notion that the VS has been working with the Alliance and/or the Citadel to uncover information of the Reapers while Shepard has been gone is at best, total speculation, and at worst, total bullsh*t.

In ME2, we learn flat out that Shepard was the only one trying to warn the galaxy of the Reapers and when he died, both the Citadel and the Alliance starting backsliding on the entire Reaper threat, to the point where they all denied that the Reapers even exist at all and that Soveriegn was merely a Geth creation. The Alliance didn't even suspect that the Reapers or Collectors were even involved with the missing human colonies - they thought Cerberus was involved which was the entire reason why the VS was sent to Horizon (of course, the entire thing was also a ploy by TIM to lure the Collectors in the first place, the sneaky bastard). And judging from the VS's response at the end of the mission with Shepard, it's fairly clear that he/she do not believe that the Reapers are involved in the missing colonies and are still convinced that Cerberus are the ones responsible for the disappearing human colonists (otherwise, why would they say that they'll let the Citadel decide whether to believe Shepard's story or not?). The only Alliance officials that we have seen that truly believe that the Reapers are a true threat is David Anderson and Admiral Hacket, not the VS.

Furthermore, we still have no idea as to why or even how the VS became a Spectre. For all we know, it was just a political ploy by the Alliance and Council to create a new "ideal" human Spectre to replace Shepard who's now on trial for being a mass terrorist. Simple fact is, we won't find out what happen till ME3 comes out, everything else is pure speculation and opinion on the players part.

Forgive me for this, but your whole post is a load of biased bull****.  You saw what you wanted to see. It is not 'clear' that the VS doesn't believe in the Reapers. They're worried that Cerberus might be working with/indoctrinated by the Reapers (and sometime between 2 and 3, that DOES happen).

And yeah, you're right. Hackett and Anderson do believe in the Reapers. And guess who the VS personally answers to? Well damn, I'm pretty sure they answer to Anderson and Hackett.

The game assumes we're capable of connecting the dots where information is lacking, but you only connect the ones that suit you.

[AVPen]

Made Nightwing wrote...

AVPen wrote...

I'm not going to get into a big discussion over this (because frankly, I had enough of it with trying to read through the "Restoring Trust with the VS" thread <_< ), but this whole notion that the VS has been working with the Alliance and/or the Citadel to uncover information of the Reapers while Shepard has been gone is at best, total speculation, and at worst, total bullsh*t.

In ME2, we learn flat out that Shepard was the only one trying to warn the galaxy of the Reapers and when he died, both the Citadel and the Alliance starting backsliding on the entire Reaper threat, to the point where they all denied that the Reapers even exist at all and that Soveriegn was merely a Geth creation. The Alliance didn't even suspect that the Reapers or Collectors were even involved with the missing human colonies - they thought Cerberus was involved which was the entire reason why the VS was sent to Horizon (of course, the entire thing was also a ploy by TIM to lure the Collectors in the first place, the sneaky bastard). And judging from the VS's response at the end of the mission with Shepard, it's fairly clear that he/she do not believe that the Reapers are involved in the missing colonies and are still convinced that Cerberus are the ones responsible for the disappearing human colonists (otherwise, why would they say that they'll let the Citadel decide whether to believe Shepard's story or not?). The only Alliance officials that we have seen that truly believe that the Reapers are a true threat is David Anderson and Admiral Hacket, not the VS.

Furthermore, we still have no idea as to why or even how the VS became a Spectre. For all we know, it was just a political ploy by the Alliance and Council to create a new "ideal" human Spectre to replace Shepard who's now on trial for being a mass terrorist. Simple fact is, we won't find out what happen till ME3 comes out, everything else is pure speculation and opinion on the players part.

Forgive me for this, but your whole post is a load of biased bull****.  You saw what you wanted to see. It is not 'clear' that the VS doesn't believe in the Reapers. They're worried that Cerberus might be working with/indoctrinated by the Reapers (and sometime between 2 and 3, that DOES happen).

And yeah, you're right. Hackett and Anderson do believe in the Reapers. And guess who the VS personally answers to? Well damn, I'm pretty sure they answer to Anderson and Hackett.

The game assumes we're capable of connecting the dots where information is lacking, but you only connect the ones that suit you.

A pot calling a kettle black. 

1. Cerberus being Indoctrinated in ME3 has NO bearing on the events of ME2 or the VS's encounter on Horizon because that plot point hasn't happened yet in the story - Cerberus is not Indoctrinated in ME2, nor does the VS have any reason or information to assume that they are Indoctrinated or are working with Reapers while he/she is on Horizon.

2. The VS may answer to Anderson and Hacket, but that does not mean in the slightest that they also believe in the same things that Anderson or Hacket does - you can work for someone or some organization, but not believe in the same beliefs that your boss does. An few examples straight from the ME universe: Jacob Taylor works for Cerberus, but does not believe in the ideals of TIM; Charn serves Balak in the "Bring Down the Sky" DLC, but he doesn't believe in crashing an astroid into Tera Nova for terrorism; Shepard works for the Council in ME1, but he/she doesn't share the same opinions/beliefs that they have on Saren, Sovereign, the Reapers, etc. 

3. To me personally, it's clear that the VS doesn't believe the Reapers are involved in the Collector attacks because of the language they use with Shepard:
"I'd like to believe you Shepard, but I don't trust Cerberus."
"They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you."
"I've got to report back to the Citadel, they can decide whether to believe your story or not."

Modifié par AVPen, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:34 .

[James2912]

jeweledleah wrote...

waaait a second. just wait a second. so its ok for Tali and Garrus to think that reapers were gone, but when council and alliance decide to adopt the same stance OMG you evil traitors, how could you betray shepard like that!!! you should know that reapers are still out there, even though you were not as close to it as Tali and Garrus were - you must still believe that! Only Garrus and Tali and Liara are allowed to think that reapers are gone and shepard coming back with the whole "reapers are still out there" is not crazy or manipulated at all, even though it now seems like all these people apparently actually have a reason to believe that reaper threat is over.

you all cannot have it both ways.

They all have that excuse until the Collectors show up and start abducting colonies. Also when the hero of the galaxy comes back and confirms that the collectors and the Reapers have a connection then they have no excuse.


P.S. Shepards heroic reputation should have raised cerberus's up imho rather than Cerberus devalueing Shepards so that he becomes a criminal in the eyes of the council. 

[jeweledleah]

James2912 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

waaait a second. just wait a second. so its ok for Tali and Garrus to think that reapers were gone, but when council and alliance decide to adopt the same stance OMG you evil traitors, how could you betray shepard like that!!! you should know that reapers are still out there, even though you were not as close to it as Tali and Garrus were - you must still believe that! Only Garrus and Tali and Liara are allowed to think that reapers are gone and shepard coming back with the whole "reapers are still out there" is not crazy or manipulated at all, even though it now seems like all these people apparently actually have a reason to believe that reaper threat is over.

you all cannot have it both ways.

They all have that excuse until the Collectors show up and start abducting colonies. Also when the hero of the galaxy comes back and confirms that the collectors and the Reapers have a connection then they have no excuse.


P.S. Shepards heroic reputation should have raised cerberus's up imho rather than Cerberus devalueing Shepards so that he becomes a criminal in the eyes of the council. 

and they all are supposed to know that collectors are working for the reapers... how exactly?  collectors are not abducting colonies in alliance space.  they are abducting remote human colonies in Terminus systems.  Alliance is trying to descretely do something about it - descretely becasue theycannot risk all out systems war and because as Delan shows us - those colonies are not exactly welcoming to alliance.  we have zero reason to beleive that connection is there.  TIM never tells us what those "clues in the data" are.  not to mention, untill freedom's progress no one even sees the evidence of those collectors.  even Miranda is surprised.  and Cerberus gets there long before alliance.  heck if TIm didn't plant information about Horizon, alliance and council might STILL not know about collector connection at all, let alone tie it to Reapres.

as for Hero of the Galaxy?  Shepard is still only human, shepard is not infallible and Shepard was presumed to be killed in action, only coming back, working for terrorist organization.  exactly why are they supposed to just take Shepard's word for it?  Shepard's reputation died in that normandy attack.  Even strongest willed people can be brainwashed, reprogrammed, broken.

So.

they either all have an excuse untill actual evidence is found and presented (object Rho is a nice one), or they all don't.  you cannot just selectively blame some of the people.

[Melra]

Luna Siwora wrote...

Tali hardly cares about anything else that doesn't specifically and directly involves the Geth and the Quarians, anyways.

Or her cuddling needs.

[S.A.K]

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

[Melra]

S.A.K wrote...

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

No.

[S.A.K]

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

No.

good for you.

[Melra]

S.A.K wrote...

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

No.

good for you.

It is, indeed.

[BatmanPWNS]

Yeah I am sure Anderson or the VS were going after the Reapers as well.


(Sarcasm)

No one was doing anything about the Reapers except Cerberus because everyone thought they had failed.

[easyt3hremember]

All they wanna do is get in Shepards pants.....

[jamesp81]

James2912 wrote...

 They thought the Reapers were finished once soveriegn was destroyed and the Reapers plans failed. 

This

Although I also wonder if hopelessness was part of it.  The politicians reflexively backstabbed everyone, seeing as that what's they do in their natural habitat.  Shepard was dead.  Garrus didn't have the resources to fight the Reapers, so he reflexively did the only thing he knew how to keep his mind off of things.  Tali was recalled the Quarian flotilla, probably heart broken over Shepard.  Liara was also heart broken over Shepard, but like Garrus, didn't know how to deal with it.  Surprisingly, she followed a path not unlike his: Vigilante justice.  The VS was reassigned, but likely wasn't able to convince the jackasses in power of the real threat.

I can see it pretty easily, actually.  They probably just saw everything as hopeless, so they just kind of....milled about, doing whatever, waiting for the end to come because they didn't know what else they could do.

[Nezzer]

I think they knew the Reapers were coming, but thought they were going to take hundreds of years to arrive and realized they couldn't do much about it.

Modifié par Nezzer, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:16 .

[InvaderErl]

This

Golden Owl wrote...

I would say Tali's done what she could....she has alerted them to the threat:

AdmiralGerrel seems to believe the Reapers are real...when Shepard confronts him about a war with the Geth and taking back the homeworld when the Reapers are a threat....Gerrel points out the Quarians are going to need somewhere for the civilians to live when the Quarians go to war with the reapers.

Aaaand this

Rogue Unit wrote...

Uh, even if they knew about there Reapers still being active, what the hell is they(Garrus and Tali) supposed to do about it? Anderson couldn't even make any progress on the issue and you expect them to make a big difference? (A quarian screaming "Synthetics!" to the council, that's funny) They don't have a ship, a crew, funding, supplies, or political pull. Unless a Mantis Sniper rifle can pierce a Reaper shields, I don't think there was much that could be done, anyway.

/thread

Modifié par InvaderErl, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:41 .

[AnimaTempli101]

It's true, Tali did help. But what do you expect Garrus to do? Raise a fleet and take them into dark space?

[Quole]

Wait. When did the VS do ANYTHING?

[Quole]

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

No.

good for you.

It is, indeed.

Thanks for the contribution to the discussion!

[Made Nightwing]

AVPen wrote...

2. The VS may answer to Anderson and Hacket, but that does not mean in the slightest that they also believe in the same things that Anderson or Hacket does - you can work for someone or some organization, but not believe in the same beliefs that your boss does. An few examples straight from the ME universe: Jacob Taylor works for Cerberus, but does not believe in the ideals of TIM; Charn serves Balak in the "Bring Down the Sky" DLC, but he doesn't believe in crashing an astroid into Tera Nova for terrorism; Shepard works for the Council in ME1, but he/she doesn't share the same opinions/beliefs that they have on Saren, Sovereign, the Reapers, etc. 

3. To me personally, it's clear that the VS doesn't believe the Reapers are involved in the Collector attacks because of the language they use with Shepard:
"I'd like to believe you Shepard, but I don't trust Cerberus."
"They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you."
"I've got to report back to the Citadel, they can decide whether to believe your story or not."

Jacob is a good guy who's convinced himself that willingly working for a terrorist is the right thing to do. Charn is a scumbag, who hasn't realised he's workign with an even bigger scumbag. Shepard (depending on your actions) either believes fully in the ideals of the Council, and tries desperately to change its opinions, or just ignores their orders and pursues his chosen course of action.

Anderson, however, is an idealistic and honourable man, who believes that the Reapers are coming, and is searching for the evidence to prove it. So, he decides to recruit the only other person that has seen/served with people who've seen all the evidence to prove that Reapers exist. So, if Ashley/Kaidan is working as the trusted, personal agent of this man...why would he even keep them around if they no longer believed in the Reapers? Like you've hastened to remind me before, there are other soldiers out there just as capable as the VS. Anderson could have a full platoon of N7s doing the investigating for him. The only reason for him keeping the VS as his personal errand boy/girl, is that they believe in the Reapers, and are willing to search for the truth.

Re The dialogue: None of that stuff remotely indicates that the VS no longer believes in the Reapers. You're trying to provide evidence from a thirty second conversation.

[Made Nightwing]

Quole wrote...

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Melrache wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Tali and Garrus are the only 2 squad members to stick with Shepard for both games. They volunteered for suicide missions twice!
Thats not enough?

No.

good for you.

It is, indeed.

Thanks for the contribution to the discussion!

To be fair, your first post wasn't exactly brilliant discussion material. BTW, Zerg Rush beats Protoss.

[alperez]

If you've learned anything at all from the previous 2 games then apart from Shepard nobody actually is doing anything about the reapers (to our knowledge).

I know before i start someone will say Cerberus, so i'll address that first, Our only indication that cerberus are doing anything about the reapers comes from TIM, not the most reliable source.

He brought Shepard back, built the sr2 and has been working all this time to stop the reapers, cerberus fans will no doubt say. But again we have his word for this and no evidence other than his word, which when we get to me3 could turn out to have been BS all along.

The council, alliance, turians, none of these people are working to stop the reapers either as far as we know although hackett does suggest the alliance maybe and we may find out in me3 that others have as well.

In terms of squadmates, the vs is still working with the alliance supposedly promoted to spectre so what they've been working on is unclear at this point.

Wrex while rebuilding the krogans at no point suggests its because he's worried about the reapers in fact the inference is that he's doing it for his own reasons and that these reasons are purely krogan related.

Liara as info gatherer that she was in me2 had other things on her mind but in LOSB she suggests that her new position allows her to help.

Garrus does as garrus does, he doesn't try to fix the big problem (reapers) instead concentrating on the little ones (omega).

Tali was working on a mission that she never fully explained and while it seems to be completely related to the quarians, we may find out otherwise in me3.

But to expect any of the squadmates to do nothing else but concentrate on the reapers, when they don't have the resources or the knowledge to actually do anything to stop them misses out on 2 fundamental points.

1. they are support and nothing more

2. its shepard's job.