310 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I guess you don't seem to meaning of the word ''deliberately'', if you want to deliberately hurt someone, you need to do this because you want to do so.

So hurting Geth was just an accident?

There are just machines, AI

No, they aren't just that.
They are sentient and very possible sapient.


Even Quarians call Tali's father a war criminal for experimenting on Geth.

But they aren't a lifeform.

[James2912]

I think the closest comparison would be if the US lost the entire mainland but retained Hawaii and Alaska, sure the US would still exist but in would not longer be a world power.

[Arijharn]

I think if Geth can adequately protect their interests then they're as entitled to 'self-determination' as any one else Fixers. Philosophy only gets you so far when someone is able to exercise force to get what it wants.

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Because the Mass effect 2 gives the impression that Cerberus has been independant from the start, Just talk to EDI about the construction of the normandy,,

"Cerberus encourgend the Alliance to Co-Developd the original Normandy'' or something like that.

I'm just wondering, do you have a different definition of "independant"?

Because all Cerberus ever did was to infiltrate the Alliance military to be able to pull some strings here and there.

They're not dependant on the Alliance at all.

Because it was an created  alliance initiative, as said by Kahoku, in the first game.

[Goneaviking]

Fixers0 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


I might remind you that in 1&2 Cerberus was still offical part of the Alliance, so you are hereby calling them terrorist to?

Was overlord and act aimed against the state, no it wasn't.

In Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was portrayed as being rogue elements in the Alliance military. It was not part of the Alliance.

In Mass Effect 2 Cerberus is said to have supporters within the Alliance. It was not part of the Alliance.

What defines a terrorist is not actions against a state, what defines him is politically motivated acts of violence against non-combatants by people who are not acting on behalf of a government. Cerberus is not a part of any government.

I was talking about example 1&2 , Akuze and Teltin.

Irrelevent. As of ME1 Cerberus was not part of the Alliance.

Some members of Cerberus were in the Alliance, but the organisation itself was not.

A person or group isn't legitimately designated terrorist because of their objective, only their methods. Cerberus routinely kills noncombatants in pursuit of its goals, which makes it a terrorist organisation by definition.

[Fixers0]

Goneaviking wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


I might remind you that in 1&2 Cerberus was still offical part of the Alliance, so you are hereby calling them terrorist to?

Was overlord and act aimed against the state, no it wasn't.

In Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was portrayed as being rogue elements in the Alliance military. It was not part of the Alliance.

In Mass Effect 2 Cerberus is said to have supporters within the Alliance. It was not part of the Alliance.

What defines a terrorist is not actions against a state, what defines him is politically motivated acts of violence against non-combatants by people who are not acting on behalf of a government. Cerberus is not a part of any government.

I was talking about example 1&2 , Akuze and Teltin.

Irrelevent. As of ME1 Cerberus was not part of the Alliance.

Some members of Cerberus were in the Alliance, but the organisation itself was not.

A person or group isn't legitimately designated terrorist because of their objective, only their methods. Cerberus routinely kills noncombatants in pursuit of its goals, which makes it a terrorist organisation by definition.

Have you played the first game.?

Cerberus was an Alliance Black ops initiative, the Kahoku side-quest from the first game

If you don't what terrorism is read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

 

[CroGamer002]

Fixers0 wrote...

But they aren't a lifeform.

Define lifeform to me.

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

But they aren't a lifeform.

So? Just because they aren't made of organic material doesn't mean that they're incapable of feeling and being conscious.

[jamesp81]

Fixers0 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


I might remind you that in 1&2 Cerberus was still offical part of the Alliance, so you are hereby calling them terrorist to?

Was overlord and act aimed against the state, no it wasn't.

In Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was portrayed as being rogue elements in the Alliance military. It was not part of the Alliance.

In Mass Effect 2 Cerberus is said to have supporters within the Alliance. It was not part of the Alliance.

What defines a terrorist is not actions against a state, what defines him is politically motivated acts of violence against non-combatants by people who are not acting on behalf of a government. Cerberus is not a part of any government.

I was talking about example 1&2 , Akuze and Teltin.

Irrelevent. As of ME1 Cerberus was not part of the Alliance.

Some members of Cerberus were in the Alliance, but the organisation itself was not.

A person or group isn't legitimately designated terrorist because of their objective, only their methods. Cerberus routinely kills noncombatants in pursuit of its goals, which makes it a terrorist organisation by definition.

Have you played the first game.?

Cerberus was an Alliance Black ops initiative, the Kahoku side-quest from the first game

If you don't what terrorism is read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

 

Given the tone of ME2, I think the idea of Cerberus being Alliance black ops group was retconned.

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

But they aren't a lifeform.

Define lifeform to me.

Do you, 

I know that they are just cold and lifeless machines, who once attacked  an alliance world, maybe they are the terrorists here. 

Also are Geth seen as Civilians and represenatives of state, if so, is that state recognized by the council or the Alliance?

if not, then any violence against them cannot be seen as illegal.

[CroGamer002]

Fixers0 wrote...

Do you, 

I know that they are just cold and lifeless machines, who once attacked  an alliance world, maybe they are the terrorists here.

Yeah and?
They're still people.

That's like saying it's OK to slaughter and experiment on Germans after WW2.

Also are Geth seen as Civilians and represenatives of state, if so, is that state recognized by the council or the Alliance?

if not, then any violence against them cannot be seen as illegal.

Tali loyalty mission, give evidence to Admirals, Tali's father is called war criminal and a traitor for experiments.

If Quarians will see that as a crime, then why Council and Alliance wouldn't?

Modifié par Mesina2, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:50 .

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Do you, 

I know that they are just cold and lifeless machines, who once attacked  an alliance world, maybe they are the terrorists here.

Yeah and?
They're still people.

That's like saying it's OK to slaughter and experiment on Germans after WW2.

Also are Geth seen as Civilians and represenatives of state, if so, is that state recognized by the council or the Alliance?

if not, then any violence against them cannot be seen as illegal.

Tali loyalty mission, give evidence to Admirals, Tali's father is called war criminal and a traitor for experiments.

If Quarians will see that as a crime, then why Council and Alliance wouldn't?

Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Quarians can shout all they want, do they have any understanding of the world, or galactic politics and relations.

I'm looking for an unbiassed viewpoint from either the Alliance or the counci that regards the geth as a senties species with there own nation.

Modifié par Fixers0, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:53 .

[Ieldra]

Fixers0 wrote...
Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Humans are just organic machines. Nothing sentient here.

In both cases, the former is plainly true, the second plainly wrong. Make an AI complex enough and sentience is what happens. It's not some mystical attribute.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:59 .

[sponge56]

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

But they aren't a lifeform.

Define lifeform to me.

Do you, 

I know that they are just cold and lifeless machines, who once attacked  an alliance world, maybe they are the terrorists here. 

Also are Geth seen as Civilians and represenatives of state, if so, is that state recognized by the council or the Alliance?

if not, then any violence against them cannot be seen as illegal.

Very early on in this thread you made a charming comment about how I obviously havent played the first two games to come to the conclusion that zulu's rantings were wrong. I will now do exactly what you did and argue that you have not played or were not paying attention to mass effect 2 if you believe geth are just machines and are nothing else. There are countless examples throughout me2 setting up the fact that the geth have developed to be more than machines. So please, do replay mass effect 2

[Dragoonlordz]

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I guess you don't seem to meaning of the word ''deliberately'', if you want to deliberately hurt someone, you need to do this because you want to do so.

So hurting Geth was just an accident?

There are just machines, AI

No, they aren't just that.
They are sentient and very possible sapient.


Even Quarians call Tali's father a war criminal for experimenting on Geth.

But they aren't a lifeform.

Sure they are, humans are just machines too but biological in nature while Geth are electronic in nature. The human body is no different to the concept structure of a machine just made from different parts and materials.

The human brain is not much different to an AI processor.

Imho biological superiorty idiology that some people have is no different than religious fanatics who believe that humans are the centre of the universe. Beleive it or not if humans wern't around the universe would not collapse and all other life would not cease to exist.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 25 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[James2912]

I thought we were talking about Earth's value to the Systems Alliance not robots...

[Fixers0]

sponge56 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

But they aren't a lifeform.

Define lifeform to me.

Do you, 

I know that they are just cold and lifeless machines, who once attacked  an alliance world, maybe they are the terrorists here. 

Also are Geth seen as Civilians and represenatives of state, if so, is that state recognized by the council or the Alliance?

if not, then any violence against them cannot be seen as illegal.

Very early on in this thread you made a charming comment about how I obviously havent played the first two games to come to the conclusion that zulu's rantings were wrong. I will now do exactly what you did and argue that you have not played or were not paying attention to mass effect 2 if you believe geth are just machines and are nothing else. There are countless examples throughout me2 setting up the fact that the geth have developed to be more than machines. So please, do replay mass effect 2

Me as a human, i have no idea  how an AI can be seen as sentient, and not even the most cartoonish storytellingwill convince that they are, an AI always recieves instructions that it muts follow no matter how advanced it is.

Besides is there an unbiassed confirmation out there that geth are sentient no, ther isn't just some raging quarians, and what's their credibility.

[Sgt Stryker]

Tonymac wrote...
These other places are not full of screaming little kids and retards and traffic and beggars. They are not filled with ****** sorry cops eating doughnuts while tagging passersbye with a speeding ticket - or red light cameras - or high taxes and maggot welfare programs for lazy people who are too worthless to make something of themselves. These other worlds are not full of pollution and disease and idiots who live in the desert and complain about the lack of food and water. They are not flooded with illegal immigration problems.

*AHEM*

This guy, this guy, this dude, this lady, and this individual would like to have a word with you.

[CroGamer002]

Fixers0 wrote...

Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Did you play ME1 and ME2?

They think on their own, have opinions and hell even a religion.

Quarians can shout all they want, do they have any understanding of the world, or galactic politics and relations.

Quarians lost billions of people and every planet from Geth and they do recognize Geth as sentient beings.

And yes, they do understand the world and galactic politics. Where did you get the idea they don't?

Did you forget about pilgrimages?
Also they can always have TV on those ships to know what's going on in galaxy.

I'm looking for an unbiassed viewpoint from either the Alliance or the counci that regards the geth as a senties species with there own nation.

Game Codex.

They are called sentient and almost everything from Codex is written from Council perspective.

[Fixers0]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I guess you don't seem to meaning of the word ''deliberately'', if you want to deliberately hurt someone, you need to do this because you want to do so.

So hurting Geth was just an accident?

There are just machines, AI

No, they aren't just that.
They are sentient and very possible sapient.


Even Quarians call Tali's father a war criminal for experimenting on Geth.

But they aren't a lifeform.

Sure they are, humans are just machines too but biological in nature while Geth are electronic in nature. The human body is no different to the concept structure of a machine just made from different parts and materials.

The human brain is not much different to an AI processor.

AI recieves instructions, they can't generate new ones, if they can it is so because they are instructed to do so.

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Did you play ME1 and ME2?

They think on their own, have opinions and hell even a religion.

Quarians can shout all they want, do they have any understanding of the world, or galactic politics and relations.

Quarians lost billions of people and every planet from Geth and they do recognize Geth as sentient beings.

And yes, they do understand the world and galactic politics. Where did you get the idea they don't?

Did you forget about pilgrimages?
Also they can always have TV on those ships to know what's going on in galaxy.

I'm looking for an unbiassed viewpoint from either the Alliance or the counci that regards the geth as a senties species with there own nation.

Game Codex.

They are called sentient and almost everything from Codex is written from Council perspective.

This is all automaticly false, AIs can't generate new commands.

[Fixers0]

Arcian wrote...

Looks like someone has missed the point of the term "AI".

All Commands an AI will ever execute are stored within its proccesor, video game AI, also needs to be predefinded doesn't it.

Modifié par Fixers0, 25 juillet 2011 - 03:10 .

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Quarians can shout all they want, do they have any understanding of the world, or galactic politics and relations.

I'm looking for an unbiassed viewpoint from either the Alliance or the counci that regards the geth as a senties species with there own nation.

I wonder if that could be because the rules were created long before the geth situation occurred... 

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 25 juillet 2011 - 03:11 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Really, they  are just machines an AI proccesors, nothing sentient here.

Did you play ME1 and ME2?

They think on their own, have opinions and hell even a religion.

Quarians can shout all they want, do they have any understanding of the world, or galactic politics and relations.

Quarians lost billions of people and every planet from Geth and they do recognize Geth as sentient beings.

And yes, they do understand the world and galactic politics. Where did you get the idea they don't?

Did you forget about pilgrimages?
Also they can always have TV on those ships to know what's going on in galaxy.

I'm looking for an unbiassed viewpoint from either the Alliance or the counci that regards the geth as a senties species with there own nation.

Game Codex.

They are called sentient and almost everything from Codex is written from Council perspective.

This is all automaticly false, AIs can't generate new commands.

You are to read the following article and understand it fully. Come back to us when you're done.
(link)