350 réponses à ce sujet

[ciaweth]

Just once, I would like to have a thread about femShep that does not devolve into nascent Men's Rights activists and their female apologists beating up the straw man of "extreme feminism."

[jklinders]

Only thing I am annoyed at is that Bioware seems to be afraid of making their own artistic choices for their own marketing material. It is a good way to keep drumming up interest but they are sacrificing their own artistic integrity and vision by leaving every small decision to the fans. We have a poll for whether to show Tali's face, we have a poll for which hairstyle and skin colour FemShep has (the facial shape is otherwise exactly the same kinda like one girl experimenting with wigs and makeup) so next I guess there will be a poll on which tie they wear to work now?

Anyway power to them, lots of cheap marketing and attention at least.

[Dr. rotinaj]

I always thought people hated Bioware's marketing, but everyday I see someone complaining that Bioware isn't marketing to them. When did uninformative advertisements become a good thing? We all know ME3 lets Shepard be male or female, so why do we need a trailer to show us? The fans know what to expect from ME3 and will buy the game because of it, not because some trailer showed a woman in N7 armor.

[Captain Crash]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Its still bad they are holding the poll on Facebook where any retard can vote ME fan or no. This is why I feel the Blonde is winning.

Femshep still is representative of everyone because everyone has the option to play her. Regardless of age and gender or even the amount of plays with her.


Facebook is the best medium still to get a wide selection of opinions because of this. People who vote there clearly know and care about Mass Effect so its the existing fans that are voting rather then new ones.  


Additionally there arnt any Blondes in Mass Effect really so I can see why its a popular choice.  Plus her hairstyle is really rather special to what we have seen previously in Mass Effect.

[Fault Girl]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

My complaint is that according to their own statitics 18% play as femShep, but with a popular vote the 82% who don't play her (and a portion of those are the people who scream on here how she shouldn't even be an option at all) get to dictate how she looks for those of us who DO play her, and I happen to hate the one those dudes are picking. LOL I have my custom femSheps, and will be sticking with them regardless of what default Jane ends up looking like. I just find it unfair that the same guys who a few months ago were on these boards telling us that we should be happy to even have an option to play as female because it was a waste of resources in a military game are the ones with the numbers to determine the outcome.

It is not BioWare that I am irritated at, it is the hypocritical voters.

+1

[charmingcharlie]

SarEnyaDor wrote...  LOL I have my custom femSheps, and will be sticking with them regardless of what default Jane ends up looking like. I just find it unfair that the same guys who a few months ago were on these boards telling us that we should be happy to even have an option to play as female because it was a waste of resources in a military game are the ones with the numbers to determine the outcome.

It is not BioWare that I am irritated at, it is the hypocritical voters.

The femshep that wins will appear on the CE version of Mass Effect 3 regardless of whether you play femshep or not.  So yes even those that do not play femshep should have a say in what femshep should look like.

[sarahN7]

Well said. As for the complaining I've seen about it being the blonde one, I personally liked her style of hair the best. It could have been any damn color of the rainbow and I would have voted that way still.

As for people disliking the idea of polling people, it was our idea to have FemShep in marketing, and I think they wanted to know which we responded best to. Quite frankly, if you have a Facebook and don't like their page, why are you here? That's a great way to get more information. Just my opinion though.

[Spanky Magoo]

I think the blonde won simply because that makes her like 1 of 3 blondes in the known me universe lol

[ciaweth]

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

I always thought people hated Bioware's marketing, but everyday I see someone complaining that Bioware isn't marketing to them. When did uninformative advertisements become a good thing? We all know ME3 lets Shepard be male or female, so why do we need a trailer to show us? The fans know what to expect from ME3 and will buy the game because of it, not because some trailer showed a woman in N7 armor.

Yes, we all know, here on this board.  Forum posters typically make up about 2% of a playerbase.  Meanwhile, I cannot tell you how many women I've run into who would never have noticed Mass Effect if they hadn't heard via word of mouth, or via some non-EA, non-BioWare website, that a non-male Shepard was an option.  If ever there was a sign that BioWare's marketing department (well, EA's, really--look at the LinkedIn profiles for anyone in BioWare's marketing department and you'll see what I mean) is uninspired and missing out on an opportunity to earn dollars, this is it.

[Pulletlamer]

Sorrel wrote...

As for people complaining about the blonde FemShep being chosen as the most popular?

Of course the blonde one was chosen as the most popular. Why do we see all these girls running about with mile-long platinum blonde straightened hair? Because that’s the look people go for nowadays. I liked the short choppy black hairstyle. I’m still not complaining.

You say you're not complaining but you say the blonde was chosen because "it's the look people go for nowadays".

Is it to hard to accept that I, and as many others, voted who liked most?

You and a lot of people have a lot of stereotypes in your head.

I voted the one I liked most. No matter she was blonde, redheaded, with black, brown hair I would still have voted for her. I just like her face, hair, everything. I said it a lot of times already.

It's hypocrite to say you're not complaining when you voted or liked another one, and state your following opinion as if it was an objective fact based on some "research" you did on "the look people go for nowadays" when I'm sure you didn't.

I voted 5. I'm not ashamed to say it. It's the one I like most. Deal with it.

Besides it's a poll and it has not ended yet. People vote the one they like the most, no one is imposing the blonde over the others.

Blonde =/= Barbie.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[Eurhetemec]

Sorrel wrote...

Without extended protests or indeed anything that could possibly be construed as a monumental effort, what we have gotten in exchange for a couple of threads on a single forum and some e-mails is a pretty big goddamn stomp of a baby step and I think we need to pay attention. I’m not saying that the battle for equality and recognition is over — Because it’s not and it won’t be for a long time. What I am saying is that this is like teaching a kid to walk. The correct response to a child’s first steps is excited praise, a cuddle, a big hug and encouragement to step forward more. The incorrect response is snivelling and whining that Junior hasn’t run a triathlon yet and that is what I am seeing here. I have not seen a single positive post about BioWare’s steps forward on this issue.

I think you're being quite silly here. Whilst much of what you've said is sensible, to claim you haven't seen a single positive post about their steps forwards is totally unbelievable. I've seen quite a number. I honestly think you're intentionally blinding yourself if this claim is made seriously, and not with hyperbole. Particularly before this vote, I saw dozens of positive posts on the subject.

We need to keep pushing, but we also need to acknowledge what’s been put out there for us in response. I am unconvinced by the complaining about the FemShep options put up on Facebook for voting as a bad decision, just as I am unconvinced by the ‘dudebros’ whining about FemShep fans ‘stealing resources from the game.’ We need to continue to be loud but our voices need to be positive, too. We need to act like we bloody appreciate what we are given so that we will be given more.

Why do you say that?

You explain, in detail, how criticism is and social pressure are what have moved BW forwards, and then claim people have to pretend to be happy about this in order for BW to continue? That's like suggesting that BW's devs are a bunch of children, who need positive reactions to learn. I don't think that they are. They're mature adults. They understand that actions have consequences and fan-reaction is never going to be universally positive.

Now, if we were talking about WoW's developers, particularly back in the early days of WoW, I'd agree - there we saw devs actually throwing public tantrums becauses ideas/features/changes were not well-received, and practically begging for praise on the forums. It was bizarre and creepy. I've never seen such behaviour from BW devs, though and I don't think that I ever will.

So I don't agree that there's a need to act - i.e. pretend to "bloody appreciate" it. All evidence suggests that, as BW devs are grown-ups, they will take any negative reaction in their stride. If this isn't so, then by all means, BW should post and say so (as WoW devs did several times).

Someone obviously thought about us when they asked for those pieces of art to be made. Someone obviously gave us consideration and thought we’d want to have an easily accessible way to vote for what we liked best. This was done for us, the absolute least we can do is acknowledge that if it isn’t perfect, it’s at least something in the right direction. We complain about our choices when we don’t have them. We complain when we do.

Actually, I respectfully disagree. Had we simply been told what the default FemShep would look like, I would suggest that the amount of complaining and in-fighting would have been far, far smaller. My long experience is that if you, as a gaming company, tell your players "how it's going to be", they accept it, but when you offer them a choice, they get really upset - and reasonably so, because the choice typically has one of two problems:

1) The option a lot of people want isn't one of the choices. This was clearly the case here - particularly as Jane Shepard and a red-haired version of "blonde haircut" weren't available.

2) People who are outside the perceived "interest group" about the choice are the main ones voting. Again, this is the case here - most people voting on it seem to be people who don't play FemShep, and have little interest in doing so. Some don't play ME at all. I'm not saying fans are "right" to be upset about that, but they will be, because their perception is that the people are voting are not ones who will actually use the option, and who it is thus irrelevant to.

I would actually argue that that's untrue, because BW are trying to expand the number of people interested in FemShep, and I would be surprised if the vote of actual FemShep players broke down differently to the public vote. So I think that's misleading and people who are complaining about Facebook are wrong, though it was a bit weird.

As for people complaining about the blonde FemShep being chosen as the most popular?

Of course the blonde one was chosen as the most popular. Why do we see all these girls running about with mile-long platinum blonde straightened hair? Because that’s the look people go for nowadays. I liked the short choppy black hairstyle. I’m still not complaining.

I think you're totally missing the point, here - all you're doing, for my money, is explaining why it was a bad idea to put this to a public vote, rather than leaving it in the hands of BW's artists. Instead of voting for a Shepard who looks like Shepard sounds/acts, people voted for "Who is the hottest chick?". That's a really good example of why the whole "vote" thing was a bad idea.

Do you understand? This would have been better handled without a vote. I didn't see a lot of requests/demands for a public vote on FemShep's appearance. Indeed, the one such call I saw was roundly shot-down in the thread it was in.

I also think that, based on what people have said about why they voted for 5, you're wrong. Tons of people have said "I voted for 5 for the haircut, not the blonde hair". So it's not that she's blonde, I'd suggest. If the blonde hair-cut was on the very short vertical hair, and 5 was a red-head, I'd be money that people would have voted for the same numbers.

[Wrathra]

ciaweth wrote...

Yes, we all know, here on this board.  Forum posters typically make up about 2% of a playerbase.  Meanwhile, I cannot tell you how many women I've run into who would never have noticed Mass Effect if they hadn't heard via word of mouth, or via some non-EA, non-BioWare website, that a non-male Shepard was an option.  If ever there was a sign that BioWare's marketing department (well, EA's, really--look at the LinkedIn profiles for anyone in BioWare's marketing department and you'll see what I mean) is uninspired and missing out on an opportunity to earn dollars, this is it.

This. I didn't pick up ME until late 2008 because I didn't know you could play a female protagonist.  I know I'm not the only one.

[Dragoonlordz]

ZombieGeisha wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

My complaint is that according to their own statitics 18% play as femShep, but with a popular vote the 82% who don't play her (and a portion of those are the people who scream on here how she shouldn't even be an option at all) get to dictate how she looks for those of us who DO play her, and I happen to hate the one those dudes are picking. LOL I have my custom femSheps, and will be sticking with them regardless of what default Jane ends up looking like. I just find it unfair that the same guys who a few months ago were on these boards telling us that we should be happy to even have an option to play as female because it was a waste of resources in a military game are the ones with the numbers to determine the outcome.

It is not BioWare that I am irritated at, it is the hypocritical voters.

+1

I have all the ME titles too, I play both genders in them and paid just as much for thos titles. I have the same right to pick as you both do. But unlike some people here and you seem to be more in that camp than not; I also understand that the people who are new to the series also paid the same amount and also might play a female character. Just because people aren't all a member of highly vocal fanclub doesn't give any of you complaining the right to exclude them from choosing to take part too.

Like I have said before just because this feedback is in the form of a poll as opposed to people bashing each other over the head verbally via forums arguing to get their "vote or opinion" on a feature changed or implemented doesn't make it any less viable as a method for choosing what the fans want. If you were part of the bring back weapons upgrades fanclub and they put it to a poll which is no different than gauging the overall response whether to bring it back or not, if was a poll and the majority sided with what you wanted then you got what you was after which is weapon upgrades then you wouldn't be sitting here annoyed that you got your way or in this case maybe not got your way.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

ciaweth wrote...

Just once, I would like to have a thread about femShep that does not devolve into nascent Men's Rights activists and their female apologists beating up the straw man of "extreme feminism."

No, let's just have endless ''Sheploo needs to die and be replaced by a woman'' posts. They are so much fun.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:14 .

[hwf]

jklinders's got it nailed.
Ideally we, the players, shouldn't have voted at all - Bioware should've polled their female designers and come to a consensus on the default female lead.

I'm one of the folks who voted blondie, number 5, mostly because of the hairstyle resembled the ME1/2's default the most. I'd prefer her to be a redhead, like Jane 1.0 - which isn't as much complaining but more accurately depicting my "choice".

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

hwf wrote...

jklinders's got it nailed.
Ideally we, the players, shouldn't have voted at all - Bioware should've polled their female designers and come to a consensus on the default female lead.

Because only female designers can have a say in what Femshep should look like? That makes no sense.

Should aliens be designed by actual aliens, then?

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:17 .

[Eurhetemec]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I have all the ME titles too, I play both genders in them and paid just as much for thos titles. I have the same right to pick as you both do. But unlike some people here and you seem to be more in that camp than not; I also understand that the people who are new to the series also paid the same amount and also might play a female character. Just because people aren't all a member of highly vocal fanclub doesn't give any of you complaining the right to exclude them from choosing to take part too.

Show us where the bad FemShep lovers touched you, Dragoonlordz.

Like I have said before just because this feedback is in the form of a poll as opposed to people bashing each other over the head verbally via forums arguing to get their "vote or opinion" on a feature changed or implemented doesn't make it any less viable as a method for choosing what the fans want.

As a poll, it wasn't a very good poll. If they'd made it narrower or wider, it would have been more effective. For example, if all the FemSheps were blonde and white, and they just showed the different haircuts, or if they had every haircut with every hair colour with every skin-colour, both of those would have provided far more useful data if they wanted data.

My feeling is that they're just "testing the water", though, and they certainly won't be "bound" by the poll.

[Trapper_920]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

My complaint is that according to their own statitics 18% play as femShep, but with a popular vote the 82% who don't play her (and a portion of those are the people who scream on here how she shouldn't even be an option at all) get to dictate how she looks for those of us who DO play her, and I happen to hate the one those dudes are picking. LOL I have my custom femSheps, and will be sticking with them regardless of what default Jane ends up looking like. I just find it unfair that the same guys who a few months ago were on these boards telling us that we should be happy to even have an option to play as female because it was a waste of resources in a military game are the ones with the numbers to determine the outcome.

It is not BioWare that I am irritated at, it is the hypocritical voters.

^^ I agree!

[ciaweth]

As an aside, it's important to remember that we're not talking about BioWare devs here. Marketing and development are separate teams. Keep your focus on the marketers if you want to have impact there.

The devs' hands seem tied with regard to marketing. In fact, the few times I've seen them try to delicately explain as much to players on Twitter, the dev in question has then gone back and deleted the explanatory tweets.

[Raanz]

jklinders wrote...

Only thing I am annoyed at is that Bioware seems to be afraid of making their own artistic choices for their own marketing material. It is a good way to keep drumming up interest but they are sacrificing their own artistic integrity and vision by leaving every small decision to the fans. We have a poll for whether to show Tali's face, we have a poll for which hairstyle and skin colour FemShep has (the facial shape is otherwise exactly the same kinda like one girl experimenting with wigs and makeup) so next I guess there will be a poll on which tie they wear to work now?

Anyway power to them, lots of cheap marketing and attention at least.

This x10.
In this new era of social media, comes social marketing.  Like you so brilliantly mentioned, it's cheap and they are milking it dry.

[Dragoonlordz]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Like I have said before just because this feedback is in the form of a poll as opposed to people bashing each other over the head verbally via forums arguing to get their "vote or opinion" on a feature changed or implemented doesn't make it any less viable as a method for choosing what the fans want.

As a poll, it wasn't a very good poll. If they'd made it narrower or wider, it would have been more effective. For example, if all the FemSheps were blonde and white, and they just showed the different haircuts, or if they had every haircut with every hair colour with every skin-colour, both of those would have provided far more useful data if they wanted data.

My feeling is that they're just "testing the water", though, and they certainly won't be "bound" by the poll.

How long is a peice of string? Whats good enough or not good enough for each person is subjective.

To be honest for most people including me, we see this moaning for what it is. People didn't get what they wanted picked (so far) so they attack both the choices others have made and the method in which was made, but if want hypocites then look no further than themselves as if it was a) a feature they wanted and were ahead in the poll, I can tell you now they wouldn't be so negative about it.

Even when take that into account its only a truly tiny minority that are annoyed with it at all, other than them the majority are more about talking hair colour preference instead of methods of how data obtained and attacking each others reason for picking one over another.

A poll is a manner of gauging public opinion especially that of the fanbase of which being in a old femshep club doesn't make you the only ones that count. Popular opinion wanted weapon upgrades and they got it yet the moment popular opinion via poll on a femshep as opposed to long drawn out bickering before concensus is made for popular opinion starts they moan. They are free to moan all they want but we all know if was something they wanted that more specifically got what they wanted then they wouldn't be attacking other peoples choices and method for finding out what people want.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:46 .

[ciaweth]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Just once, I would like to have a thread about femShep that does not devolve into nascent Men's Rights activists and their female apologists beating up the straw man of "extreme feminism."

No, let's just have endless ''Sheploo needs to die and be replaced by a woman'' posts. They are so much fun.

I've never seen a single one of those, so "endless" must be an exaggeration, but I hearby declare those posts Dumb as well.

[James2912]

As a predominatly sheploo player this new femshep modell has encouraged me to try femshep in ME3. Why haven't I played femshep before? I like to play myself in RPGs so identifying with a female RP player can be difficult. However now I have eye candy to look at so I'm willing to give it a try. Femshep players do you want more people to play as femshep? Or do you only want the "right kind of people?" Because the latter attitude is very annoying for most people. Nobody likes to be "them" in the them vs. us scenario it just makes people angry at the "true" femshep fans. Making you guys a hated minority because of a few loudmouths.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Much agreed, OP.

I think the redesign is nice and while I was rooting for the more ethnically ambiguous female Shepards (in particular 3, 4 and 6), I'm not bothered that they didn't win (it does speak to the notion of intersectionality and white as default, but that is another issue for another time).  In truth, it's nice just to see that FemShep is represented in a culture as visual as ours.   Hooray for blonde FemShep and I look forward to seeing her on my CE.

 Images matter and whether or not we like to think that, in a society is as visual as ours, cultural imagery affects our understanding of beauty, ethnicity and gender.  Video games contribute to this dialogue as they continue to be a major form of modern entertainment.

All that being said, I can understand the fear that comes with a society obssessed with Lookism. Believe me, I understand this. We live in it.  We breathe it.  Those that are troubled by it, I understand why.  But––what concerns me is the notion that a particular type of femininity implies weakness and that looks that are traditionally associated with "girlishness" are being mocked, condescended to and condemned. The notion that in order to appear strong, a woman must appear more masculine is intensely problematic.  It continues to establish that only one look implies strength, only one "type" can save the world.  This is not looking at genders roles and attempting to deconstruct them; this is in fact corroborating and firmly establishing a deeper distinction.  This is pitting groups of women against each other when we should be united in trying to erase those notions of gender difference.  Women can look girly or not girly, femme, "butch," muscular or a hybrid of all. 

Because gender is a social construction, we can understand that the definition of what "women" should look like is an arbitrary one.  It is a definition that can be remolded and inclusive for all "types" of women (and men) if we let it.

That's my .02 anyways.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:25 .

[Heather Cline]

I liked the blond one not for the hair color but for the hair style. The style was awesome. It was different, unique and frankly I'd rather see it in a brown color. Still I am glad Bioware is listening to us and giving us some new artwork, including more s/s romances in ME3 and listening to us. I say kudos to finally having ME being what it should have been from the beginning.

Thanks Bioware.