52 réponses à ce sujet

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I keep seeing on the boards that many players didn't like the wave action combat.  With waves and waves of enemies.  It took me awhile to settle into tactics to play the waves and once I finally learned how I was loving the waves and waves of enemies.  I found this thrilling.  I had the sensation of fighting for my life.

Why did most players hate the waves of enemies?  

Personally, I'd like to have a setting option to have waves or not to have waves.   I don't know if this is possible; but, I'd like to have the option.  I don't think it is right as a player that my game was ruined because of other players whinning.  

So, do more waves of enemies happen on the harder settings now after patch 1.03?   Just wondering on this. 

Please state if you liked the wave action or not and your reasons why.  I'm just being curious here.

 

[furryrage59]

I hated wave action ALL the time as it ruined immersion, seemed lazy and dispensed with any semblence of tactics.

[Tirfan]

Well.. the waves - I don't necessarily think them of them as a bad design-choice, the implementation however sucked & that there was waves in every encounter. I imagine what they tried to do with waves was that you should adapt to the changing situation during the combat, this did not work however, given how easy the game in fact was & you had to adapt only once - once you figured out how to deal with waves, you just dealt with the waves.

Then there is the fact that they made the combat last far longer - never did I during the encounters feel I was fighting a large battle with reinforcements coming, trying to tear down my defences - rather I felt like I was fighting 3 or more small encounters strung together for no apparent reason.

[devSin]

Probably because they're not implemented credibly. It's not like waves are new, but this is the first time that they just BAM! MORE ENEMIES YEAH! right in your face like that.

Personally, I think wave fights are an excellent idea, but somebody has to work out all the details (where do they come from, when do they appear, how is the party supposed to react at each stage, blah blah) and fight off the urge to make every fight just a series of trash mobs to up the difficulty.

DA2 has some nicely scripted fights, I felt, but it also has tons of trash mobs. Every fight needs to be nicely scripted, or it needs to just be vanilla. If you need waves to come in, then you need to do the work for it.

Modifié par devSin, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:02 .

[CloudOfShadows]

I'm with you, OP.

I rather liked the waves, for me they made a lot of sense, as it seemed silly for the 'encounters' to just sit holed up when fighting heroes that obviously outmatched them, and instead they kept calling in reinforcements.

Sure, it could have been done a bit better (spawnpoints better hidden, more warning, etc) but I really loved them. Made the combat system come together for me.

Modifié par CloudOfShadows, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:03 .

[Aaleel]

Waves are one of the things that just took the fun out of the game for me.

One wave here and there fine, but not multiple waves every fight.  But after a while it was just a feeling of enough already, this is no longer strategic or fun, it's just tedious, repetitive, and boring. Then add the enemies just materializing out of nowhere and falling out the sky, and it just made the whole system ridiculous.

I may pick up Legacy at some point and see if they're going in the right direction with it, but I absolutely hated it after a while in DA2.

Modifié par Aaleel, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:17 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Furryrage59.

I respect you're opinion and thanks for your reply. Me personally, I didn't get the sensation of immersion breaking experience during battle, the opposite in fact. With some of the dialogue I did.

@ Tirfan.

You didn't want to see waves in every encounter. Ok, I can see that...too predictable.

You know I saw a difference between playing on the PS3 or watching other family members play on PS3 vs the PC. II also noticed this with DAO. My son plays on PS3 and it seemed that I had alot more enemies to fight than he did. My battles seem to take longer on the PC.

I play on the pc and I've always felt it was harder on the PC. I also know my pc doesn't have the fastest processor speed so maybe this is the reason the waves seemed heightened to me. With my current system I'll never beat the game on nighmare. Not happening. I did manage to beat DAO on hard, not happening on nightmare until I get a new PC.

I enjoyed the longer combat battles.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ devsin. Nicely said.

@ Cloudof Shadows. Thanks for your reply. I don't feel so alone now! LOL!

[devSin]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

You know I saw a difference between playing on the PS3 or watching other family members play on PS3 vs the PC. II also noticed this with DAO. My son plays on PS3 and it seemed that I had alot more enemies to fight than he did. My battles seem to take longer on the PC.

In Origins, at least, I believe they specifically reduced the encounter size (for balance and performance reasons) on the console versions. So they may still do that for DA2. I haven't seen anyone walk through all the differences between the console and PC versions, though.

Modifié par devSin, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[Naltair]

I don’t mind the waves though they can get tedious at times. I think the issue is execution of the waves. I will agree the enemies just dropping down all the time is kind of lame, but maybe if you can see people moving on the roofs that would alert the observant player to the prospect that another wave is coming.

Or have a way to stop a second wave, maybe a leader has an animation where they are about to blow a horn or somehow alert allies to call in reinforcements and give the tactical player a chance to shut them down before the fight gets harder. I also believe that a new wave should add a new dynamic to the fight not just more people to kill. It should change the scope of the battle.

Perhaps instead of a wave, the enemies change the landscape, drop a door/barrier. Initialize a trap like a rolling stone or flaming floor. More scripted but not really a bad thing. The game could use more scripted encounters that make players think instead of just blowing things up quickly.

But otherwise waves do not overly bother me, they just need better execution. Also they don’t need to be used every encounter especially at night when you are clearing out the gangs.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ devSin.

I think you're right. Watching my son play, his battles will be over in the blink of an eye. I might have battles for a few minutes or longer. I know the High Dragon Battle in DAO it took me around 7 - 15 minutes for that battle. In my opinion the pc version is harder. I know it comes down to player preference and let's not turn this into a pc vs console discussion.

I just fought the battle with the High Dragon in Act 1 since patch 1.03 and it didn't take nearly as long. I'm not seeing the waves like I did before 1.03. So they did change this with the patch.

[R0vena]

Both systems (waves/no waves) work for me since fighting part is not really my priority in such games. I was a bit puzzled by waves at first, but as soon as I figured out how to deal with them properly the combat started to be a pure pleasure once again, not that different from DAO. As it was already pointed, it would be nice if reinforcements had a bit more logic in them and were not just appearing from the thin air. Also not absolutely every mundane battle should have reinforcements, in my opinion.

[alex90c]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Furryrage59.

I respect you're opinion and thanks for your reply. Me personally, I didn't get the sensation of immersion breaking experience during battle, the opposite in fact. With some of the dialogue I did.

@ Tirfan.

You didn't want to see waves in every encounter. Ok, I can see that...too predictable.

You know I saw a difference between playing on the PS3 or watching other family members play on PS3 vs the PC. II also noticed this with DAO. My son plays on PS3 and it seemed that I had alot more enemies to fight than he did. My battles seem to take longer on the PC.

I play on the pc and I've always felt it was harder on the PC. I also know my pc doesn't have the fastest processor speed so maybe this is the reason the waves seemed heightened to me. With my current system I'll never beat the game on nighmare. Not happening. I did manage to beat DAO on hard, not happening on nightmare until I get a new PC.

I enjoyed the longer combat battles.

You have to fight more waves on higher difficulty levels, so just check to see what difficulty your son is playing on in comparison to what you're playing on.

--

In regards, to waves, I just think they're flat out lame. Why can't we get a game where enemies are actually on an equal footing to the player rather than just swamping them with fodder? Seeing melee rogues doing these stupid f*cktard animations so as opposed to the enemy rogues fighting normally just gives me a huge disconnect, like Hawke and his companions all went to a super-secret fighting school while everyone else was trained in the not-so-super-secret-normal fighting schools.

What DA2 needs, is interesting (as in, challenging in their own ways) encounters, and an enemy which is at least remotely on par with the player, and only then will get the combat be interesting (take the fight with Taliesen in DA:O as an example, there were traps and a whole load of assassins against your party and the Crows who were on your side, and that battle still gets me sometimes because it can go so wrong if you're unprepared for it) rather than:

ANOTHER WAVE

ENEMIES EVERYWHERE

MUST MASH BUTTONS TO VICTORY

OH LOOK EXPLOSIONS I WIN

250XP

FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Modifié par alex90c, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:52 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Naltair,

I agree, something to change the waves up, like throwing bombs at us. What surprised me in the waves is that very few groups didn't have their own apostate mages to counter our party mages. I found this odd, well maybe not, this is Kirkwall after all!

[Naltair]

DA:O had some solid scripted encounters but most were pretty straight forward. I do agree that for the most part players and enemies should be using comparable abilities.

But then again players love big numbers. Getting one shot by enemy cross class combos would be terribly frustrating considering the damage increases.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@Alex90c

I'm sure he played on normal the same as me. Uh, he is a power player I guess. Where I'm a tactial player. Thanks for the information on the waves and higher levels.

As for the enemy levels, I thought all enemies we encountered were the same level as the player when in battle. Or do I have lack of the correct information? Those Templar Hunters are kinda tough, at least for me. I did enjoy expecting them in battle.

Also, you're response made me laugh, well said.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

[TEWR]

the implementation sucked and the constant use of them was a bit silly.

Especially given that with Hawke's kill record and Kirkwall's near lifeless state (it's in a coma as I put it before), it seems like Hawke killed everyone around that area and no one was left but block people.

[Naltair]

The enemies scale to your level, but some enemies are critters, some are normal... others are elites usually the rogue/assassin/leader/mage and then there are bosses. This determines usually their HP and their ability set and AI. Critters have the least hp and the most numbers while elites and bosses have the most hp and are usually 1-3 in an encounter if any.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the implementation sucked and the constant use of them was a bit silly.

Especially given that with Hawke's kill record and Kirkwall's near lifeless state (it's in a coma as I put it before), it seems like Hawke killed everyone around that area and no one was left but block people.

In a coma!  LOL.   Link please, I want to read that discussion.

Hmmm, I don't want the area too lively, so I've got room to fight in the streets.  That lady walking through one of my battles on the docks was annoying, I'll give you that.  I was like.......WTH.  Lady get the 'H' out of my way will ya.

@ Naltair.  Thanks, that is what I thought, might have helped with better enemy parties instead of basis enemies. 

I didn't find the new darkspawn emissaries difficult at all.  I was actually disappointed.  I was expecting some really great battles with them and they just didn't happen. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:15 .

[TEWR]

Oh it was just some random status I made some time ago where I said Kirkwall wasn't as dead as I thought it was.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh it was just some random status I made some time ago where I said Kirkwall wasn't as dead as I thought it was.

I thought they did alot better job in DA2 with generic npc standing around than in DAO. Talking.servants double checking their shopping lists, guards meeting at the hanged man later for drinks I thought was a nice touch.  The ladies of the evening standing around telling you to move on or stop for a chat or other things. 

I think we got Gorim in Denerim barking his wares an this was about it in Denermin.  Denerim was in a coma for certain.

[TEWR]

Denerim was definitely dead. Kirkwall is in a coma.

I expect the next city to be bedridden, but awake.

They did add certain people commenting on how quests were handled (Cullen, Bran, Elthina, etc.) which helped to make it slightly alive. But the citizens just felt forced into saying those things. They never said anything different. It was always the same.

Time to do some thread advertising!

I made a thread sometime ago dealing with ways to make cities feel more alive. There were some really good ideas in there. One I suggested was have the music for the area being played by a band of musicians that you can see.

Adding in to that, citizens should be listening and some should drop money for them.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

R0vena wrote...

Both systems (waves/no waves) work for me since fighting part is not really my priority in such games. I was a bit puzzled by waves at first, but as soon as I figured out how to deal with them properly the combat started to be a pure pleasure once again, not that different from DAO. As it was already pointed, it would be nice if reinforcements had a bit more logic in them and were not just appearing from the thin air. Also not absolutely every mundane battle should have reinforcements, in my opinion.

I had the same experience, thanks for the reply.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Denerim was definitely dead. Kirkwall is in a coma.

I expect the next city to be bedridden, but awake.

They did add certain people commenting on how quests were handled (Cullen, Bran, Elthina, etc.) which helped to make it slightly alive. But the citizens just felt forced into saying those things. They never said anything different. It was always the same.

Time to do some thread advertising!

I made a thread sometime ago dealing with ways to make cities feel more alive. There were some really good ideas in there. One I suggested was have the music for the area being played by a band of musicians that you can see.

Adding in to that, citizens should be listening and some should drop money for them.

Bedridden, I just had a mental image of Willy Wonka's grandparents there!  LOL!

Wow, great suggestion, that would be cool to see in the game.  I'd also like this in a tavern setting.  That would be neat, the town square works too.  Maybe in Starkhaven, as long as Sebastian isn't in residence, he'd probably think it was a sin if it wasn't the chant.

[alex90c]

Bioware should take a look at Fable 3 if they want to know how to create decent cities/villages. Yeah the interaction with characters in Fable sucked, but Bowerstone felt pretty alive. Also, Assassin's Creed.