163 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Buckwheat530 wrote...

Grunt's whole purpose is to be the genetically pure Krogan who could aid in overcoming the Genophage. If you don't kill the Thresher Maw, he doesn't get any mating requests.

Grunt still has the genophage. And Okeer never had any intention to cure it when he made Grunt.

[Buckwheat530]

Mister Mida wrote...

Grunt still has the genophage. And Okeer never had any intention to cure it when he made Grunt.

This is why I said "overcome" and not "cure."

[100k]

levannar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

levannar wrote...

My problem with this is that I still don't see how it could be implemented. It sounds cool described, it would be great as a written story, but I can't for the life of me see how it could be played, experienced, enjoyed. The scenes, like the Thane/Samara one: how does Shepard get involved? Do we watch this as a cutscene? How many of such scenes are there? And so on. I don't see player involvement in them. The only thing I see is a series of cutscenes, and an endless stream of simulated Suicide Missions. What's more, from the description you gave, I get the feeling this would utterly ruin the Suicide Mission itself. Would the player get the same sense of epicness, the same sense of scale? No, the only thing they'd think is "Hey, this is the same crap I've played a dozen times in training. Damn, I expected something unique for the last mission in the game."

Furthermore, something of this scale could never be implemented in addition to all the content ME2 already has. The way it is described, this could make an entire game.

The problem with the italed bit could be avoided. There's no particular reason to have a simulated SM bear any relationship at all to the real thing.

But in general, yeah. Not easily doable, and not worth doing. Maybe some players would be satisfied with the bulk of the game being fake combat. But not many.

Edit: the zots would be available after all; this plan means there's aren't any LMs, right?

Apparently, they want this in addition to the existing game, LMs and all. It's all about this "professional loyalty" stuff that would, as I see it, take this weird, complicated training, and use it to turn the SM into a walk in the park. <_< No, thanks.

You guys have to read the content of the other thread I linked to to get a full context on where and how it fits into the game. 

As for it making the SM into a "boring" and tedious mission, consider this: the SM in ME2 involves nothing but running and shooting. That is it. That's what you spend most of ME2 doing. 

[100k]

Taken from the other thread so that you guys begin to get some context for just how much of the game this VR program accounts for.

"I remember watching smudboy's videos on where ME2 failed, and where it should've been perfected. He brought up some interesting points, but I feel that he was far too harsh on ME2's story. That being said, I agree with much of what he said regarding its lack of proper plot, pacing, or character development for Shepard (which the player should be able to control, but is never given the option to).

Smudboy wanted to completely rewrite ME2, with half of the main cast combined with other cast members to save time, and, what he felt, were just foolish characters to begin with. He also felt that all of the characters needed to be plot integral, so that they would have proper roles in the game. I feel, however, that these characters didn't need to be removed or combined. I'll explain why later.

You will notice that MY ME2 is very accurate to the current one. I feel that the essentials of a good story are within the strained net that is ME2's existing story, and that what needed to happen most was simple expansion. However, the very beginning, very middle, and very end do have strong differences, that address the problems of tutorials, over arching plot, and a conclusion in that respective order. So lets begin.

The TUTORIAL

1. The beginning. Recognizing that ME2 needed a tutorial makes sense to me. And I feel that this is the area where ME2 utterly failed. It had to appeal to the mainstream audience, who Bioware had to assume hadn't/wouldn't play ME1. I understand this. However, I feel that splitting the tutorial missions up even more, while introducing certain game types would've made more sense, allowing more player training to be crammed into the beginning of the game, without skimming the story elements.

-The player designs Shepard, and instantly is able to be aboard the SR1. They can "see" their Shepard, without having to wait 10+ minutes.
-Aboard the SR1, the player will learn the basics of movement and conversation wheel while meeting the old members of your crew for either the first time, or returning time (if you played ME1). These characters will summarize different events of ME1, catching new players up on the plot so far. This also solves the problem of the VS only having a few lines in ME2's entirety, and shows how these characters changed since the first game (think of how Pressley would have changed, voicing his new found confidence for aliens to the commander).
-The player then learns to use the galaxy map, and when they pick a course, they are attacked by the Collectors.
-Now, at this point, the main events are the same, albeit with a minor change. The ship is destroyed, Shepard moves Joker to an escape pod, but is separated from his pilot. Shepard then struggles to the last remaining pod, which is heavily damaged. The commander, wounded, enters the pod, which is unable to launch in time, and is blasted out of SR1, towards the planet below.

Thus begins ME2.

-A short video illuminates (SB) agents landing on the planet, searching SR1's wreckage, finding the crashed pod, and opening it up, peering into the blackness inside to find...the Mass Effect 2 title (and an unseen Shepard).

(at the time, the player doesn't know that the agents are Shadow Broker mercs)

-The Cerberus facility is used differently for several reasons. It needs to be part two of the game's tutorial, and it needs to make sense with the story. Shepard, instead of somehow remaining intact after a fall from orbit, is killed when life support in the pod is broken. His/her body is preserved in a cryo-like state after Life Support failed in space, although Shepard's bones are broken after the escape pod collided with the planet.

Anyways. I do agree with smudboy (and many other fans) that Shepard's death has to mean something. Smudboy suggests moving it to the middle of the game, but I think it can be just as dramaic where it currently is...provided that it is more fleshed out:

Flashes of the Cipher burst across the screen.

You hear Miranda talking about Shepard being rebuilt.

Shepard wakes up for the first time; screaming in pain or shock. You hear someone (possibly Wilson) say "My god. It worked. Shepard is alive!" or something along those lines. It sounds a bit like something Frankenstein would say when his monster wakes up, but it establishes that returning from the dead means something.

Shepard wakes up for a second time, delirious this time in a white room. Officer Lawson enters, and gets Shepard to memorize his/her basic motor skills again, after prompting Shepard to stand up. Shepard tries, and falls to the floor, with very little physical strength after months on an operating table.

(there is, after all, no reason for there to be another tutorial involving learning the basics like movement, as that was covered in ME2's SR1 prologue. The scene ends)

The next scene is of Shepard getting his/her cybernetics fixed on his/her face, while (s)he inquires as to her current whereabouts. Miranda tells her that she is in a medical facility that is trying to fix her up, so that she can stop the Reapers, and that she can meet her Alliance Admirals later (an obvious lie, but Shep is still under heavy drugs). As you leave the operating room, you here a Cerberus agent asking questions about recent human colonies that have fallen silent.

The next scene is of Shepard repairing a gun, as part of a memory test. Shepard explains that he/she doesn't understand what a thermal clip is, thus introducing new and old players to thermal clips, and their uses. Wilson explains, and then instructs Shepard to shoot the targets on the walls. As you all probably will have already realized, this is the tutorial to gun play (or biotics) in the game. After mastering the combat in the tutorial, Shepard is stunned by a vision of the Cipher, depicting Saren, the Reapers, and the Protheans. Shepard faints, and game starts up where the official ME2 begins, with Shepard waking up on a table and escaping the base.

Minor changes include:
-Shepard being more suspicious of Miranda after she kills Wilson
-Shepard being angrier upon discovering that she was saved, not by the alliance, but by Cerberus if she is a Sole Survivor
-TIM explaining that he wont send a ship of specialists through the Omega 4, without knowing what is beyond it. He is developing special probes with automated FTL systems to survey the other side of the Relay, before bringing back results/footage.
-Shepard gets a debriefing from either Miranda, TIM, or Jacob on each dossier, detailing their abilities, history, and what purpose they might hypothetically serve.

The OVERALL PLOT

Smudboy is right, I think, when he says that the real enemy of ME2 should've been the Reapers. However, I feel that he goes to the extreme, by making Shepard become a sort of diplomat that needs to convince every race to fight the Reapers. This is extremely premature, considering that we don't know how ME3 will pan out.

Hence, I keep ME2's plot more or less the same, with changes being acknowledgement that:

-Shepard is copping with his/her death (this influences how Tali, Miranda, and Garrus respect you)
-The specialists have fluctuating faith in their abilities to carry out the ever looming threat of the final suicide mission
-Shepard doesn't know how or where the collectors will strike.

While I wouldn't change the existing ME2 small Collector/Reaper plot, I would add to it.
4 missions involving the collectors and their abductions would be added. Each of these missions would be a mini suicide mission. One character can die each mission. This does not include Horizon, or the Derelict Collector Ship. These missions can be tackled in any order.

Freedom's progress is the same, except that Tali is more suspicious of Shepard when she is first reunited with him.

Horizon is the same, except for the very ending discussion with VS. Shepard can now explain himself to Ash/Kaiden more thoroughly.

Additional Mission - Ambushing the Collectors. At Feris Fields, you and your team are finally given the option to ambush the Collectors with some preparation. All squad mates go with you, but like the suicide mission, they are separated due to mission objectives. Feris Fields is a semi large colony, so deciding whether protecting the innocent, or killing the collectors is very important.

Additional Mission - Hunting the Collectors. A small squad of Collectors are harvesting a hive of Rachni on a distant planet. With your own small squad, you will go in and stop the abductions, and find out what the purpose of this odd Collector mission. Renegade points and heavy credits for capturing the rachni and giving them to Cerberus. Special biotic power for capturing the collectors, although they will eventually die after losing Harbinger's control. Heavy Paragon points for freeing the rachni (provided the Queen is still alive), and gaining a rachni biotic power. Heavy Renegade points for killing both races.

Additional Mission - Saving a Science Team. You go to rescue a small science team who has discovered a Prothean artifact. The artifact started sending signals into space once activated, and a small Collector vessel arrived almost at once. If You have not boarded the Derelict Ship, Shepard and the science team will wonder why the Collectors were so eager to find this artifact. If you have already completed the Derelict Ship mission, Shepard will explain the the scientists that the Collectors are repurposed Protheans, and that Collectors were probably designed by the Reapers to attack anyone who uncovered such relics, so that younger races wouldn't discover the Reaper-Cycle plot.

Additional Mission - Geth and Collectors. Shepard and company discover that the main Collector vessel is attacking a Geth ship over a tropical world. This seems odd if you haven't picked up Legion, because Shepard will assume that the Geth and Collectors would cooperate. If you do have Legion with you, he will explain that the two races are fighting over something unspecific (Legion will have hacked the Geth transmissions). Using stealth, you land on the planet where the Geth ship is crashed, and sneak about to find out what is happening. The Geth and Collector forces are fighting on the ground, but you can see that a small Geth company is sneaking a Geth relic into a large cave, and avoiding the main fight, Shepard and company must infiltrate the cave to discover the location and purpose of this geth artifact. It is discovered, that the Geth are actually on the verge of discovering the Reapers true plans for their species (destruction), and if the Geth find this out, they might reconsider their alliance with their gods (these are the Heretics). If Legion is with you on this mission, he will encourage you to let the Geth keep the relic. If Miranda is with you, she will encourage you to destroy the relic, and the Geth. If Tali is with you, depending on her loyalty status, she will either encourage you to allow her to bring the relic to her people for study, or give it to Legion.

These four missions push the idea that the real threat in the galaxy is actually the Reapers, but that they are a looming storm, while the Collectors are the main enemy. It keeps the main plot on course, and allows the jarringly different loyalty missions to be more forgivable as distractions to the overall story.

The CONCLUSION

Finally we come to the end. This is the only part I would have actually redesigned.

Shepard and company are tricked into believing that a large Collector force is attacking a medium sized human colony. When the entire team arrives to find the colony is fine, they realize the trap. The Collectors abduct the Normandy's crew, pressing the player to hurry to their rescue.

Smudboy believed that the ending needed to be big, dramatic, and utilize all of the races duking it out with the Collectors. However, as ME3 isn't out yet, I think that he's just too eager to unite a front against the Reaper threat.

I feel that what is important is the crew of the SR2 functioning as a unit, and supporting each other as they go to what is almost certainly death.

After completing the four missions + the official game missions, moral on the SR2 is either high (from your success rate), low (from the number of people lost along the way) or so so (a combination of high success, and a few loses). TIM recovers only one of his Omega 4 Probes, and the entire SR2 crew sees what lies beyond the Omega 4 Relay: A burning abyss or radiation, solar flares, black holes and exploding worlds. There is a small habitable tunnel forged by the Collectors, cluttered with ancient ship wreckage, which makes a straight and narrow path to the Collector base, which is a horrifying construct of unrivaled power.

This briefing is in the game for several reasons:
-To demoralize the crew, lending a feeling of desperation. This doesn't meant that everyone will be scared however. Grunt, Mordin, and Samara will be confident. However the rest of the crew will be uneasy about their chances. This gives the player the chance to re motivate them.
-To build a feeling of isolation. Shepard and his crew need to start feeling completely isolated from the rest of the galaxy. This mission needs to emphasize that, unlike in ME1, Shepard is in this alone. No orders, and no direction.
-For you to evaluate your chances. Depending on how many crew mates are left, this could turn out very badly for you. This will force even the most casual of players to consider their looming choices.

Now the rest of the game is more or less the same. Once through the Omega 4, Joker flies through that "Valley" of habitable space. Depending on ship upgrades, you can defeat the Collector Vessel with various levels of success.

HOWEVER

Rather than crash landing on the Collector Base's side, you crash in its hangar bay. It just makes more sense.

If you have the Hammerhead DLC, you can initially use the Hammerhead to destroy certain of the bases comm towers, scrambling the collector response to your infiltration.

However, the Hammerhead will get damaged, and the player will have to assign a tech expert (best choices are Tali, Mordin, or Legion) to repair the craft while the rest of the team move on, or they can leave the Hammerhead.

Another change I've added are the Fire team leaders.

Depending on their success in the mini suicide missions, every character except Grunt, Legion, Jack, and Kasumi will make good squad leaders.

Kasumi or Thane will make the best infiltrator to break into a Collector security room to shut off cameras.

Thane, Garrus, and Legion will make the best snipers for covering the surviving abducted Cerberus crew and human colonists.

Jack and Samara will make the best biotics for stopping the seeker swarms, and Miranda can be trained to also fulfill that role.

For holding off Collectors that are trying to attack the Normandy, Grunt, Jacob, or Zaeed will make the best specialist.

Shepard fights his/her way to her first vocal confrontation with a grunt Collector-Harbinger, who, like a mad scientist, is hurriedly activating a human Reaper core. It is revealed that Harbinger wanted Shepard's body so that he could use the Prothean data to create a hybrid Prothean/Human Reaper.

You destroy the Reaper Core.

You can choose to destroy the base, or give it to Cerberus. Rather than Shepard coming off as an idealistic cheerleader, the moral debate between keeping the base and getting rid of it is made more grey by the fact that it is full or Reaper technology that can easily indoctrinate humans (whose husks are the main slave force, driving the base and processing humans) or keeping the base as a tool against the Reapers.

If Shepard destroys the base, he will flood its engines with liquids, causing the base to lose power, and be vacuumed into a black hole.

If you keep the base, Shepard will unleash a toxin that will only kill the collectors, but leave the Husks behind to keep it running, at least until Cerberus ships recover it.

Shepard (and his squad) is picked up by his tech specialist in the repaired Hammerhead, and they escape the crumbling/fuming base.

The story ends just like ME2 ends."

-and-


"The DLCs also expand the story more.

The Hammerhead DLC unlocks three small missions titled "Saren's Wake". Shepard searches for Reaper/Prothean secrets that the late Spectre may have left behind. These missions involve driving the Hammerhead around three different worlds, looking for Prothean artifacts, until you discover a Reaper relic at the end which (the Cipher shows) indoctrinated Saren. *changed 2 months later*

EDITED: The Hammerhead DLC still revolves around Shepard searching for Dr. Aloi, and finding the Prothean Relic. It was premature of me to assume, at the time, that the relic will serve no purpose in ME3. The overall story remains the same, except that Shepard and company are a bit more vocal in their concerns/indifferences about the fate of the Dr. When they find the relic, they are creeped out. The DLC ends as usual.

Project Overlord is more or less the same, except that it questions the morality of tampering with AIs.
-Legion will be worried about the effects that it will have on his people if given to Cerberus.
-Tali will want the data to send to the Admiralty Board aboard the Flotilla, or she'll want to give it to Legion (depending on Loyalty mission).
-Miranda and Jacob will be conflicted by the Cerberus ethics that caused so much death, and will question their loyalty to Cerberus.
-Jack will be furious that David was allowed to endure so much torture at the hands of Cerberus. She will want to kill Gavin Archer at the end of the DLC, and will want you to help David. If you don't, she will not romance Shepard.
-Mordin will explain the cultures of the Geth (with Legion), and compare the AI experiments to his ethically sticky work with the Genophage.
Overlord also has the Reaper-curtain threat, like all of the DLCs. The occasional mention of how the AI research may help Cerberus fight the Geth/Reapers is subtle, but there to maintain plot relativeness.

LOTSB DLC almost perfect. Shepard can sadly agree with Tela Vasir when she compares his allegiance to Cerberus to her own allegiance with the Shadow Broker. *edited*

EDITED: Instead, Shepard can elaborate on the "it doesn't matter! line to Tela, by telling her that the when the Illusive Man asks him to blow up a building of innocent people, then he'll quit/try to stop Cerberus [referencing the SB and Tela blowing up the trade center].

Also, Tela Vasir will react to certain squadmates when she meets Shepard in Liara's apartment:
-She will be impressed by Garrus, Thane
-She will warn Jack to stay away from the Illium authorities
-She will be facinated with Legion
-She will be slightly afraid of Samara.

If you bring Garrus and/or Tali with you, Liara will share in a short dialogue with them too, for old times sake.

Arrival DLC is both great and awful. The main elements remain the same, except that Shepard is is put in Stasis for two days, and is only able to break free when a power fluctuation from close proximity with the Alpha Relay allows the stasis field to drop (hell, for the whole station to lose power momentarily, before back up generators kick in). Shepard must fight his way back to his armor and weapons, then call in an infiltrator to commandeer the radio tower of Rho's research facility to alert the Normandy while he does off to reactivate the asteroid's thrusters (which Rho's agents are deactivating). Shepard defies Harbinger's hologram. In anger (or whatever Reapers feel) Harbingers hologram electrifies Shepard's infiltrator, before mocking Shepard, and vanishing. Shepard drags his ally aboard the Normandy. The system explodes, and the remaining members of SR2 stare, stunned, at Shepard. DLC ends like normal. Infiltrator is revealed to be fine."

In my Mass Effect 2, the VR sessions take up about 15% to 20% of the game. That's nothing. And everything that you've learned in the sessions don't make up the SM, in fact, only a few elements of the VR sessions would make it into the SM. The rest of the tactics you learn are sprinkled over the "additional missions" so that they DON'T get tedious, but remain part of the game.

The main objective of the VR sessions that I originally had in mind, was to make the SR2 a bit more lively. Who wouldn't want to see how some of these specialists behaved. Sometimes Shepard can join in conversation between two or more operatives, with bonuses for paragon and renegade comments. Sometimes, its just two people (without Shepard there), talking about their lives, memories, and stories, like in KOTOR and KOTOR 2. These scenes only last a few minutes at most. 

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what Garrus and Thane think of each other? Wouldn't it be great to see how that relationship develops over the course of the game, especially if the VR sessions allow for advancements in certain areas, like leadership?

And, just to re-clarify, most of the VR stuff simply revolves around shooting stuff, so it wouldn't get boring. Escort civilians to safety by shooting attacking enemies, or bull rush the enemy and attack them head on. Protect Tali or Kasumi as they hack a door for a few minutes by shooting down a few waves of enemies. Chase this individual, while taking out multiple enemy guards. Train your squad to take out those gunships. Get these civilians out of pods in X amount of time, while shooting the enemy. That sort of thing. We see a bit of this on Horizon, when you defend the comm tower. Why not just elaborate on it.

:happy::happy::happy:

My 'boring' changes just make the moment-to-moment objectives a bit more diverse, while remaining fluid and fun.

Modifié par 100k, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:43 .

[celuloid]

Eurhetemec wrote...
Hmmm, I couldn't agree, sorry . Garrus added far less to the plot than Mordin, in my estimation - he could definitely have been an NPC who simply said "Go see Harkin", and that's how much he added to the plot itself.

The difference is that ME1 characters added something to the main plotline, while 3/4 of ME2 ones added nothing. I should not have quantify Mordin's contribution, but I am confident that Mordin's cure = Tali's evidence in importance of the plot progression.

Regarding Garrus, the matter is not that simple. He did not only provide direction, but was investigating Saren - the main villain of ME1 and wanted to clear name of Turians. So that must count for something when most ME2 characters are like:
Shepard: "Here is the candy. Now jump into the van."
Character: "Okay."

Wrex and Tali are similar. They definitely added less to the plot than Mordin, and were about on-par with Legion. Liara was like the way less interesting version of Mordin in ME1 (necessary for the plot to go forwards). In ME2's DLC she was amazing.

Unlike Legion, Tali and Wrex are present from the beginning. Tali basically gave you evidence needed to save the galaxy. Is that trivial contribution?
Wrex argued with you if he should even fight the main villain, because Saren's doing seemed noble to him at certain moment. That is what I call relevance to the main plot.

I think what this shows though, is that how relevant a character is to the central plot has zero bearing, for me, on whether I enjoy interacting with them and so on. Garrus and Wrex are some of my favourite RPG characters ever - playing since 1986! I love those guys. Zaeed was totally rocking and he was a DLC character without proper interaction! Talk about pluggable!

Whereas VS, I don't hate either, but, gosh, I found them boring. Same for Liara in ME1. Yet they were important-ish to the plot.

In fact, here's a thing - I think that any character you MUST take is likely to be a bit more boring and middle-of-the-road than optional ones, because optional ones can safely run the risk offending X% of the playerbase. Some people loathe Zaeed and leave him to die. I love that guy. He's such an amazingly fun jerk.

If he was a "necessary" character, then I don't think he could be so edgy without making people kind of mad with the game.

The second best moment of ME series was for me Samara's loyalty mission. She and her daughter were totally unnecessary, but that plotline had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. Sadly, the central plot stays the way it is.

Of course they have more depth. Now imagine if that 1.5 hours of game-time spent on them had any influence on the effort to stop the Collectors. Would not that made them important to the main plot? Now they are just 1.5 hour long side-missions.

Yeah, I dunno, Celuloid. Like, take Jack's loyalty mission. I absolutely loved it. Amazing mission, plot/story-wise, for my money. I loved the reversal and the surprise and so on, it was genuinely cool. Yet I don't see any non-artificial-seeming way that could have influenced success vs. the collectors - I mean, beyond what it did - Jack is as natural a choice as Samara for the biotic force field, and non-loyal Jack's field fails - so that kind of does influence the effort to stop the collectors, doesn't it?

Not Jack, please. Almost could not believe Jack and Morinth were written by the same guy. I was very happy she was the only one who did not survive my first playthrough.

Stopping the Collectors: You basically stop them in any case, this loyalty does not make the central plot any richer, it is just another variable that kills people in random fashion. When squadmates are killed haphazardly, it does not make any impact, like when player was given the choice on Virmire, or when Wrex was killed because he wanted cure for his people.

So I dunno. I really liked pretty much all the loyalty missions. I think the two on the Citadel were the weakest for me (despite really liking Thane (duh lol!) and Garrus) - they were actually more fun for me than the main game.

Whereas in ME1, I found much of Feros and and Noveria to be a total chore - no fun at all. Lots of plot, sure, but not a lot enjoyment.

Loyalties were indeed fun. I am not even going to describe what central plot was like.

Noveria was great, Feros I played after Virmire, so it felt kinda like: "What am I doing here? Shouldn't I be stopping Saren or something now?" But roleplaying was still there in ample amounts, that's what made it the Game.

Modifié par celuloid, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:19 .

[AlanC9]

100k wrote...

You guys have to read the content of the other thread I linked to to get a full context on where and how it fits into the game.

Jeez -- how many WoTs do you want me to deal with today?

[AlanC9]

Guess I'm a glutton for punishment

100k wrote...
1. The beginning. Recognizing that ME2 needed a tutorial makes sense to me. And I feel that this is the area where ME2 utterly failed. It had to appeal to the mainstream audience, who Bioware had to assume hadn't/wouldn't play ME1. I understand this. However, I feel that splitting the tutorial missions up even more, while introducing certain game types would've made more sense, allowing more player training to be crammed into the beginning of the game, without skimming the story elements.

Needed? You mean Freedom's Progress wasn't a tutorial level? Or do you just mean that you want to use the tutorial for other things?

Your tutorial seems a good deal longer than the ones we have, and somewhat more boring.

Oh... on second thought, never mind. I don't see any particular superiority for your version of ME2, but I don't see any reason to be mean to you about it either.I save being mean for the professionals.

Except that I'm not at all clear what you would have cut from the game to do all of this extra stuff you're talking about. Or is this just a total fantasy rather than a realistic alternate plan?

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:32 .

[Eurhetemec]

celuloid wrote...

The difference is that ME1 characters added something to the main plotline, while 3/4 of ME2 ones added nothing. I should not have quantify Mordin's contribution, but I am confident that Mordin's cure = Tali's evidence in importance of the plot progression.

Regarding Garrus, the matter is not that simple. He did not only provide direction, but was investigating Saren - the main villain of ME1 and wanted to clear name of Turians. So that must count for something when most ME2 characters are like:
Shepard: "Here is the candy. Now jump into the van."
Character: "Okay."

The bolded bit was so funny I couldn't even think about this straight for a while lol!

When I could, I still don't agree - none of them actually matter. They're just plot points. My measuring stick is - if they could be an NPC with a single scene, they aren't "important to the plot".

Tali could have a single scene - you could rescue her and she could give you the evidence then leave.
Garrus could have a single scene - "I sure hate Saren! Go talk to Harkin!".
Wrex could have a single scene if you didn't bring him with you (which is possible, isn't it?) - "Let's kill Fist!"

In fact, I think the plot-irrelevance of all three is shown in that none of them HAVE to be recruited. All of them can be told to buzz off.

If the plot actually required them, that'd be impossible, as it is for Liara and VS.

In ME2, the plot requires Jacob, Miranda, and Mordin. Everyone else is effectively optional - so ME2 kind of has more "required" characters, doesn't it?

Unlike Legion, Tali and Wrex are present from the beginning. Tali basically gave you evidence needed to save the galaxy. Is that trivial contribution?
Wrex argued with you if he should even fight the main villain, because Saren's doing seemed noble to him at certain moment. That is what I call relevance to the main plot.

Tali herself is not important. She's irrelevant, all that matters is the data she had. It could have been in a box on the floor next to her dead body or something . Wrex isn't even necessarily present on Virmire, as you can not recruit him.

Stopping the Collectors: You basically stop them in any case, this loyalty does not make the central plot any richer, it is just another variable that kills people in random fashion. When squadmates are killed haphazardly, it does not make any impact, like when player was given the choice on Virmire, or when Wrex was killed because he wanted cure for his people.

That I agree with. The whole "Suicide Mission" thing was baaaaaaadly handled. I was thinking that, even doing everything right, you'd be bound to lose 1-2 people, at the very least, and maybe only be able to get 100% survival on a second play-through or something. But no. Just make almost everyone loyal, don't be a moron, and buy all the ship upgrades, and you get 100% survival.

Yuck!

I was disappointed by that more than anything else in ME2. A suicide mission and no-one dies, and I didn't have to try super-hard or anything, just be thorough? What kind of suicide mission is that?! I mean, I was already thinking, going into the Suicide Mission "Well, people will die, so I'll work out how to prevent that on my next game!". Then they didn't. I mean what?

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:55 .

[levannar]

100k wrote...


As for it making the SM into a "boring" and tedious mission, consider this: the SM in ME2 involves nothing but running and shooting. That is it. That's what you spend most of ME2 doing. 

Oh yeah? We must've played two completely different games then. The SM I've played happened to also include tasking various teammates with various stuff, and using your entire team, something you didn't do at all in the rest of the game, if I remember correctly. The training sessions you're suggesting completely trivialize those: they enable you to choose whichever teammate you want by training them, and they give you dozens of missions before the SM that play out the exact same way. Thanks to this, by the time the player gets to the SM, it's nothing new or epic. It's the same thing they've been practicing over and over again in the previous 30+ hours of the game. THAT is what would reduce it to "nothing but running and shooting".

And sorry, but I'm not going to read another wall of text. We aren't having conversation here: I'm raising valid points, but you don't bother to answer. You only keep posting WoTs about what "awesome" scenes could be included in this version--I agree they sound great, but that doesn't quite address any points I've made.

Peace.

Edit: Meh, skimmed over the WoT anyway. As I thought, it doesn't answer anything I've said at all. 15-20% of the game being fake combat is WAY too much. I just can't wrap my head around how this would be better than actual, real missions. Also, you still didn't say anything about how this could possibly be implemented. Consider the resources something like this would require. How many levels would BW need to make, or do you want everything recycled? And the scenes you describe. Yeah, yeah, they sound great--on your first playthrough. What about replayability? Just how many such scenes would BW need to create for it not to get repetitive?

To me, it seems like you only really want more content, mostly banter, and some kind of Pinnacle Station-esque virtual shooting range. So why not just ask for that? I honestly see no need for this, as I honestly feel it would require a complete redesign of ME2 in order to come out as a decent game. And let me remind you once more, that BW doesn't have unlimited resources. Yeah, I'd love to have ten times more content as well, but we've got to stay realistic here.

Modifié par levannar, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:13 .

[100k]

AlanC9 wrote...

Guess I'm a glutton for punishment

100k wrote...
1. The beginning. Recognizing that ME2 needed a tutorial makes sense to me. And I feel that this is the area where ME2 utterly failed. It had to appeal to the mainstream audience, who Bioware had to assume hadn't/wouldn't play ME1. I understand this. However, I feel that splitting the tutorial missions up even more, while introducing certain game types would've made more sense, allowing more player training to be crammed into the beginning of the game, without skimming the story elements.

Needed? You mean Freedom's Progress wasn't a tutorial level? Or do you just mean that you want to use the tutorial for other things?

That quote was actual directed at smudboy. I was trying to explain how he didn't bring up the importance of tutorials in games. Anyone can write a great story start, but without a tutorial explaining the game play elements, you're committing suicide for your product (when it comes to gaming). ME2 had a great tutorial in the sense that it introduced the player to all of the game play concepts. But it had an awful tutorial in the sense that it just didn't work as a story element.

Mine is a little boring, yes. But I feel that for anyone willing to wait maybe three more minutes, it would have perfectly introduced the new story, while commemorating the original game (ME1).
:)

Oh... on second thought, never mind. I don't see any particular superiority for your version of ME2, but I don't see any reason to be mean to you about it either.I save being mean for the professionals.

There really isn't any reason for it to be particularly superior. It is simply meant to elaborate on the main elements of the original ME2. Professionalism be damned, I think I did a pretty damn good job in incorporating game play and story together. 

Except that I'm not at all clear what you would have cut from the game to do all of this extra stuff you're talking about. Or is this just a total fantasy rather than a realistic alternate plan?

I wouldn't cut anything from ME2. Just add to its existing elements. That's why I like it. It fits perfectly with ME3. It doesn't change any of the characters. It doesn't change any of the existing events. It just elaborates on them. What little bits it does add that would have to be accounted for in ME3 are minimal at best. A line of dialogue, and that's it.

[AlanC9]

Really, 100K? The way I read your plan it requires substantially more resources. Four additional missions, for starters. And a lot of additional dialogue lines.

It's not so much that I think your work was bad as that the problems you're trying to solve aren't really problems.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .

[AlanC9]

Eurhetemec wrote...
When I could, I still don't agree - none of them actually matter. They're just plot points. My measuring stick is - if they could be an NPC with a single scene, they aren't "important to the plot".

Tali could have a single scene - you could rescue her and she could give you the evidence then leave.
Garrus could have a single scene - "I sure hate Saren! Go talk to Harkin!".
Wrex could have a single scene if you didn't bring him with you (which is possible, isn't it?) - "Let's kill Fist!"

In fact, I think the plot-irrelevance of all three is shown in that none of them HAVE to be recruited. All of them can be told to buzz off.

Good point... how can a character be important and optional at the same time?

[100k]

levannar wrote...

Oh yeah? We must've played two completely different games then. The SM I've played happened to also include tasking various teammates with various stuff, and using your entire team, something you didn't do at all in the rest of the game, if I remember correctly.

...

That's it? "tasking verious teammates with various stuff and using your entire team.". 

I'm assuming that you're talking about putting one specialist in a vent, one as a barrier holder, and two as fire team leaders. You're right. We didn't do that the rest of the game. But guess what? You know what the value of putting that specialist in that position is? Shooting. I can put Garrus as the fire team leader, but it doesn't change the game play. At all. I still run around and shoot stuff. And that's fine! But selecting four people to do four specific roles at the end of the game still doesn't change anything on the game play end. MY ideal (which you have scorned from the moment you saw it), ADDS to it. 

The training sessions you're suggesting completely trivialize those: they enable you to choose whichever teammate you want by training them, and they give you dozens of missions before the SM that play out the exact same way. Thanks to this, by the time the player gets to the SM, it's nothing new or epic. It's the same thing they've been practicing over and over again in the previous 30+ hours of the game. THAT is what would reduce it to "nothing but running and shooting".

And how do you figure that--

And sorry, but I'm not going to read another wall of text. 
Peace.

...this is a public forum. People come here to discuss their thoughts and feelings about topics they enjoy. Obviously you can tell by my walls of text (actually copy pasted from another thread), that I have a lot of love for this series. I spent a lot of time thinking about why I love it, and also a lot of time being critical of it. You see, I don't have unconditional love. I am a very critical person, who enjoys deconstructing things and putting them back together. If my enthusiasm on the subject of plot and game play confuse, anger, or bore you, then don't even bother responding.

:mellow::mellow:

[levannar]

100k wrote...



...this is a public forum. People come here to discuss their thoughts and feelings about topics they enjoy. Obviously you can tell by my walls of text (actually copy pasted from another thread), that I have a lot of love for this series. I spent a lot of time thinking about why I love it, and also a lot of time being critical of it. You see, I don't have unconditional love. I am a very critical person, who enjoys deconstructing things and putting them back together. If my enthusiasm on the subject of plot and game play confuse, anger, or bore you, then don't even bother responding.

:mellow::mellow:

You see, that is my problem. The quoted walls of text, I mean. Sorry if I came across as rude, but it frustrates me if someone I'm trying to make a conversation with ignores everything I say. I'd like to point out that even now, you didn't actually address any of my concerns about your version.

Edited my above post by the way.

Edit: to clarify.  

Edited one more time, to further clarify: No, your enthusiasm on this subject does not confuse, anger, or bore me. I'd only like for you to answer at least a few of my questions. I think I can ask that much, in exchange for reading your walls of text, can't I?

Modifié par levannar, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:29 .

[100k]

AlanC9 wrote...

Really, 100K? The way I read your plan it requires substantially more resources. Four additional missions, for starters. And a lot of additional dialogue lines.

It's not so much that I think your work was bad as that the problems you're trying to solve aren't really problems.

Of course it would require more work. I'm not disputing that, and I never will. What I am saying is that the story of ME2, from the point of synopsis, remains the same. It is merely elaborated upon.

I think that Shepard getting onto a shuttle to nowhere in particular...with his entire squad...is an awful, awful plot device that doesn't make any sense unless one turns off their brain. But I refuse to turn off my brain for a Bioware RPG. Oh-- I understand its purpose for the sake of the over all story-- so that the crew can be abducted. That's fine. But it could EASILY be made believable if someone had simply taken the effort to explain it a bit more.

I think that four missions involving the antagonists is fine. But then completely eclipsing those antagonists with 12 loyalty missions is terrible. Why not add four more missions, so that the story is more balanced out. Plus my "dream DLC"? Now we've got 12 loyalty missions, and 11 plot related missions. Wow, suddenly the rift between LM and SM isn't so huge!

We've got a crew of highly trained individuals, but some of them aren't professionals, and many of them don't even like each other? Hey, lets work that into the main plot, by making them into a team that you can train + get bonuses for training them. Suddenly you're not just fighting for human colonies, or Reaper repellant. You're fighting for your shipmates! You're fighting so that you can remain a working crew, or even *gasp* a family!  You're given even more of a reason to care.

Shepard was revived from death, but is having trouble coping with it. Suddenly death, and questions about our mortality (which 95% of our media revolves around in some capacity) can be answered! How does Shepard feel about dying? How does Shepard feel about living? How does Shepard feel about the Reapers?

I know that my "dream ME2" will never happen. I know it well. But are my ideas so awful, especially considering that they are just a more elaborate version of an existing game? If my ideas are awful, then what does that say abot the original title?

[100k]

levannar wrote...*snip*

I truly did not mean to come off as an arrogant ****** by ignoring your points, levannar. At the moment when you first responded to me of the previous page(s), I was dealing with two other people + another thread, and a giant wall of text that I became obsessed with reviewing for grammar mistakes I'd made. 

I can see how it looked like I was being an jerk, but that simply was not my intention.

[levannar]

100k wrote...

levannar wrote...*snip*

I truly did not mean to come off as an arrogant ****** by ignoring your points, levannar. At the moment when you first responded to me of the previous page(s), I was dealing with two other people + another thread, and a giant wall of text that I became obsessed with reviewing for grammar mistakes I'd made. 

I can see how it looked like I was being an jerk, but that simply was not my intention.

Okay, I can understand that. No hard feelings.  I'm sure we all have our own "dream ME2"s, and to be honest, we do have some wishes in common--I completely agree that the Collectors should be more present throughout the game, and that Shepard's return from the dead should have been addressed in conversations. I didn't mean to offend you with my replies, I can tell you've worked hard on this. Perhaps I misunderstood something, and that's why I didn't like your idea--it's always possible as English isn't my first language. I'm also pretty tired. Maybe I'll like it better tomorrow, with a fresh mind. 

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
With all the LM and RM's it feels as if you have all the time in the world to beebop all over the Milky Way solving everyone else's problems that have almost zero relevance to the SM and the only thing that is accomplished is lowering the overall merc population of the Terminus systems. 

And this is different from ME1.... how? No different from any RPG since FO1, for that matter. (Even in MotB I believe you can get along with the curse forever)  This is a general failing of the genre.

The specific problem with ME2 is that the IFF mission isn't forced the way Horizon is. I believe one of the Bio devs said that was a mistake, but I don't know if he meant that as only his personal judgement or if it's Bio's consensus.

Disagree.

This is a general failing of designers.

Each cRPG attempts to be either a complete campaign,  or a segement of a campaign(Usually 1/3).  In doing so,  they generally attempt to implement the side missions one would encounter during a prolonged campaign.  Which is fine...

...Except they keep using time-sensitive plots.

Baldur's Gate 2 did just fine,  you weren't on the clock,  so the side missions made sense.  Most other games don't do as well,  you can't implement some world-shaking event and then toss in random side quests.

If you're going to do a campaign,  don't do a time-sensitive main quest.  If you're going to do a time-sensitive main quest,  then keep everything focused on that quest.  Everything will have to be progressing the main quest,  there's no room for side missions unless the sidetracking advances the main quest.

It's a design failure,  not a genre failure.  In a proper RPG,  you either get non-time-sensitive quests,  or concurrent events where the bad guy is actually doing something at the same time you are.

[100k]

Also, I didn't initially respond because I saw this, and felt that there wasn't a whole lot more I could say to. I was simply falling behind in responding to questions and comments.

levannar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

levannar wrote...

My problem with this is that I still don't see how it could be implemented. It sounds cool described, it would be great as a written story, but I can't for the life of me see how it could be played, experienced, enjoyed. The scenes, like the Thane/Samara one: how does Shepard get involved? Do we watch this as a cutscene? How many of such scenes are there? And so on. I don't see player involvement in them. The only thing I see is a series of cutscenes, and an endless stream of simulated Suicide Missions. What's more, from the description you gave, I get the feeling this would utterly ruin the Suicide Mission itself. Would the player get the same sense of epicness, the same sense of scale? No, the only thing they'd think is "Hey, this is the same crap I've played a dozen times in training. Damn, I expected something unique for the last mission in the game."

Furthermore, something of this scale could never be implemented in addition to all the content ME2 already has. The way it is described, this could make an entire game.

The problem with the italed bit could be avoided. There's no particular reason to have a simulated SM bear any relationship at all to the real thing.

But in general, yeah. Not easily doable, and not worth doing. Maybe some players would be satisfied with the bulk of the game being fake combat. But not many.

Edit: the zots would be available after all; this plan means there's aren't any LMs, right?

Apparently, they want this in addition to the existing game, LMs and all. It's all about this "professional loyalty" stuff that would, as I see it, take this weird, complicated training, and use it to turn the SM into a walk in the park. <_< No, thanks.

To which I will now respond. 

I think it is fairly simple, but perhaps that's just because I spent so much time thinking about it (no offense).

1. Professional loyalty = SM survival (unless put in a completely wrong role). It just makes sense that way.

2. Personal loyalty (standard LM) = bonus costumes, ability, and character loyalty to Shepard.

3. Squad loyalty (through NPC interaction) = strongest resolve, allowing your crew members to fight for each other. This allows for stylish cutscenes to be unlocked, like the Legion/Thane/Garrus sniping contest.

ONLY PL (professional loyalty) is required to get a character to survive the Additional mission, and SM, unless that character is put in a role that completely goes agains their natural abilities (like Kasumi as a frontal assault unit).

The other two loyalties aren't required, but they do allow further romancing (what better to romance a LI than to get to know them during a LM), and make that character loyal to Shepard -- not just willing to follow his/her orders. And they add a little spice to the final cutscenes in the game, by displaying how they work together as a crew.

The PL isn't long. Each session is only about 5-8 minutes at the most. It's just there to complete a teams SM durability, and everything else (skill building, weapon mastering, squad banter, etc)  is optional and additional.

Modifié par 100k, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[levannar]

100k wrote...

To which I will now respond. 

I think it is fairly simple, but perhaps that's just because I spent so much time thinking about it (no offense).

1. Professional loyalty = SM survival (unless put in a completely wrong role). It just makes sense that way.

2. Personal loyalty (standard LM) = bonus costumes, ability, and character loyalty to Shepard.

3. Squad loyalty (through NPC interaction) = strongest resolve, allowing your crew members to fight for each other. This allows for stylish cutscenes to be unlocked, like the Legion/Thane/Garrus sniping contest.

ONLY PL (professional loyalty) is required to get a character to survive the Additional mission, and SM, unless that character is put in a role that completely goes agains their natural abilities (like Kasumi as a frontal assault unit).

The other two loyalties aren't required, but they do allow further romancing (what better to romance a LI than to get to know them during a LM), and make that character loyal to Shepard -- not just willing to follow his/her orders. And they add a little spice to the final cutscenes in the game, by displaying how they work together as a crew.

The PL isn't long. Each session is only about 5-8 minutes at the most. It's just there to complete a teams SM durability, and everything else (skill building, weapon mastering, squad banter, etc)  is optional and additional.

All right, that clears it up somewhat.  Though, I'm still not sure how this would be implemented in the actual game. But I get the principle, and I like it.

If you don't mind me asking, how would the "squad loyalty" work? Is it something they just naturally gain as part of the training, or by doing actual missions? Also, does the personal loyalty factor into anything other than romances? I feel it should, perhaps unlock further conversations?

Edit: By the way, we've gone waaaaay off-topic... I feel bad now.

Modifié par levannar, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[Il Divo]

100k wrote...

levannar wrote...*snip*

I truly did not mean to come off as an arrogant ****** by ignoring your points, levannar. At the moment when you first responded to me of the previous page(s), I was dealing with two other people + another thread, and a giant wall of text that I became obsessed with reviewing for grammar mistakes I'd made. 

I can see how it looked like I was being an jerk, but that simply was not my intention.

Aside from the four extra missions (which I consider unnecessary), I really liked your rewrite/extension on the ME2 plotline. The good thing, which some users like Smud forget, is that it does retain the core experience. Bioware's problem was not in the premise of ME2. Essentially, what you describe is more like a director's cut. I like the idea of Shepard's revival where he puts together a thermal clip, as this allows gameplay/narrative to become intertwined and makes the shift much less gimmicky.

Props, imo.

[100k]

levannar wrote...
All right, that clears it up somewhat.  Though, I'm still not sure how this would be implemented in the actual game. But I get the principle, and I like it.

If you don't mind me asking, how would the "squad loyalty" work? Is it something they just naturally gain as part of the training, or by doing actual missions? Also, does the personal loyalty factor into anything other than romances? I feel it should, perhaps unlock further conversations?

The personal loyalty is just the standard in-game current loyalty missions. Most players would do these missions, as they involve doing stuff like blowing up Pragia, or saving Oriana, and are fairly hefty side missions.

The squad loyalty works exactly as you guessed, involving both training and doing actual missions. If you do normal missions (including side quests) with the same two NPCs more than three times (in total), they will become more trusting of each other, and will approach each other on the off-hours to engage in conversation, sparing, and skill training. Naturally Garrus and Tali would instantly start off being comfortable with each other, and the same for Jacob and Miranda. 

However, select few characters, because of how they're written in ME2, will remain uncomfortable with each other.

Tali will never be anything more than professional and cold with Jacob and Miranda, because they're Cerberus.

Jack will gain a grudging respect for Jacob, but will loath Miranda from start to finish (seeing as we don't know how this relationship will pan out for ME3). Even a training session involving Miranda teaching Jack to use an SMG, or Jack teaching Miranda to amp up her biotics will involve cold comments and profanity.

Zaeed (and to a lesser extent Jack) will despise Samara, because (s)he represents everything the Justicar fights against.

Thane and Jacob will probably never get more than cold cooperation.

And Tali will initially hate Legion, but after their fight, depending on the outcome, she will be more interested in him.

Everyone else will get along fairly fine. Kasumi is extremely social, Thane is exceedingly polite, Mordin is always thinking, etc etc.

As for how all of this is implemented, I originally thought this should be the only "new" DLC for my dream ME2. You can spread out the missions however you want in the game, and have to complete 10 levels to gain complete professional loyalty (each VR mission being about 10 minutes long).

[100k]

Il Divo wrote...
Aside from the four extra missions (which I consider unnecessary), I really liked your rewrite/extension on the ME2 plotline. The good thing, which some users like Smud forget, is that it does retain the core experience. Bioware's problem was not in the premise of ME2. Essentially, what you describe is more like a director's cut. I like the idea of Shepard's revival where he puts together a thermal clip, as this allows gameplay/narrative to become intertwined and makes the shift much less gimmicky.

Props, imo.

Thank you. Glad you liked it. 

The additional missions are both a blessing and curse in many ways. On one hand, they do extend the collector plot. On the other hand, they have almost no variables that will carry over to ME3 (because we don't know anything about ME3), which makes them unnecessary in the long run.

[Il Divo]

celuloid wrote...

The difference is that ME1 characters added something to the main plotline, while 3/4 of ME2 ones added nothing. I should not have quantify Mordin's contribution, but I am confident that Mordin's cure = Tali's evidence in importance of the plot progression. 

I have to disagree with this. A character being "important" to the main plotline is not as simple as allowing plot progression. It is not a character having an emotional moment. It's also not a character having proper motivation. A character being important to the storyline is dependent on how the narrative attempts to treat that character.

1. Plot progression is probably the weakest link here and it's one that I most dismissive of. I do not think that because a character performs a single plot-necessary function that they are instrumental to the narrative. Mission from KotOR opens a security door. 

Over the course of any Bioware game, dozens of characters help you at various points, but Bioware does not choose to make every character a squad mate. Mission is not important because she opens a security door. Tali is not important because she has evidence linking Saren. Following their plot device, both characters can be completely forgotten and the main story will not suffer at all; none of their conversations move the narrative forward. Bioware included them as companions because they designed characters they wanted people to interact with, not because they are important to the plotline.

2. Wrex is a good example of a character who has an emotional moment, but otherwise is irrelevant to the entire storyline. His conversations about the Genophage are interesting, but still don't move anything forward.

3. For motivation, I think Tali (once again) illustrates this problem. She's a kid away from home, who wants to bring down Saren. But after her evidence is presented, none of her conversation topics further the narrative. She doesn't provide insight into Saren, but talks to Shepard about Quarian Politics, economics, and life on the Flotilla. 

This is something I would direct at the majority of Bioware characters, but it's one I'm willing to live with. Bastila is a good example of a character that is critical to KotOR because every step of the way, the game emphasizes her importance to the plotline. She's the reason Malak attacks the Endar Spire. She is the target of a questline on Taris. She was responsible for your character's survival and the search for the Star Maps, etc.

Overall, most Bioware characters are not enjoyable because they are important to the main plot, but because they're fun to interact with.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:06 .