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[Cutlass Jack]

1136342t54 wrote...

It depends. With Liara you can officially move on but with the VS its more complicated. To everyone annoyed by Horizon they took that as a break up when in reality the VS was just pissed and needed to let off some steam. Also if most of you have read the email its obvious your VS still has feelings for you and likely didn't want to end it on Horizon.

You mean that email where Kaidan tells you he been dating again?

Its not even slightly more complicated with the VS. You've been dead for two years, both moved on. It would only be complicated from Shepard's perspective, since it hasn't been two years for him/her. But both Horizon and the email make it perfectly clear that its currently over.

It doesn't mean there's not lingering feelings of course. Nor does it mean its impossible or even bad to stay loyal and try to overcome that 'being dead' hurdle. But that would be starting over, not picking up like nothing happened.
It certainly isn't remotely cheating if you move on though. If Shepard started a new relationship before Horizon, then some cheating argument could be entertained. But ME2 relationships happen past that point.

[Wereparrot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

* Shepard dies, the crew is broken up
* TWO YEARS PASS
* Virmire Survivor eventually runs into Shepard for the first time by (something of a manufactured) coincidence, talk for a couple minutes

Easy way out. I call it cheating.

There's bound to be a domestic after two years of being 'dead'. It doesn't give you reason to ditch the VS. 

I'm sorry, but you're nuts.  If death is "the easy way out" then... look I can't even follow the logic of any argument that presumes the relationship is still ongoing. 

The point is that Shepherd isn't dead. I would not presume to move on unless I knew that Ashley had moved on, and she hasn't, not really. You never have the chance to ascertain whether your relationship is dead or if there is still something in it, and untill you do, I still think it's cheating. In the end whether you think it is cheating or not is largely irrelevant: if Ashley thinks it's cheating then it's cheating, in that you have wrongly assumed it to be over and in so doing betrayed her.

[upsettingshorts]

Wereparrot wrote...

The point is that Shepherd isn't dead.

Yes he/she is.  For two years.  This is indisputable.

Wereparrot wrote...

In the end whether you think it is cheating or not is largely irrelevant: if Ashley thinks it's cheating then it's cheating, in that you have wrongly assumed it to be over and in so doing betrayed her.

Riiight.  Yeah, not buying it for a second. 

Unless your argument is that you interpet Ashley to be a creepy weirdo.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 juillet 2011 - 03:11 .

[Raiil]

So.... does this mean Kaidan will acknowledge that we cheated on one another, since he was going out with some doctor lady? Because that will be an interesting discussion.


All I ask is that Shepard be allowed to say 'I thought you moved on', both in a nice way and in a totally snarky douchetastic way (my Shepard is a big a--hole to people most of the time). I can't speak for the VS or other Shepards, but being called a traitor, from one military person to another, damages the relationship permanently and it's dead in the water as far as she's concerned.

[Pups_of_war_76]

Sorry, guys; it's cheating.

[Wereparrot]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

The point is that Shepherd isn't dead.[/quote]

Yes he/she is.  For two years.  This is indisputable.[/quote]

And what does Shepard know of that? Especially now that he's alive again? The relationship was hardly old when Shepard 'died', and if Shepard was 'dead' then he cannot possibly rewrite his feelings towards Ashley because he has none; and if, as we are led to believe, the Lazarus Project was successful, shouldn't he then 'wake up' with the same feelings he had previously?

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

In the end whether you think it is cheating or not is largely irrelevant: if Ashley thinks it's cheating then it's cheating, in that you have wrongly assumed it to be over and in so doing betrayed her.[/quote]

Riiight.  Yeah, not buying it for a second. 

Unless your argument is that you interpet Ashley to be a creepy weirdo.

[/quote]

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?

[Wereparrot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yes he/she is.  For two years.  This is indisputable.

And what does Shepard know of that? Especially now that he's alive again? The relationship was hardly old when Shepard 'died', and if Shepard was 'dead' then he cannot possibly rewrite his feelings towards Ashley because he has none; and if, as we are led to believe, the Lazarus Project was successful, shouldn't he then 'wake up' with the same feelings he had previously?

Riiight.  Yeah, not buying it for a second. 

Unless your argument is that you interpet Ashley to be a creepy weirdo.

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?

Modifié par Wereparrot, 26 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[upsettingshorts]

Wereparrot wrote...

And what does Shepard know of that? Especially now that he's alive again? The relationship was hardly old when Shepard 'died', and if Shepard was 'dead' then he cannot possibly rewrite his feelings towards Ashley because he has none; and if, as we are led to believe, the Lazarus Project was successful, shouldn't he then 'wake up' with the same feelings he had previously?

I don't know about you, but I figure my Shepard is capable of stepping out of his own two feet and thinking about Ashley's perspective and broadly speaking, how their situation has changed.

In fact, not attempting to do this would - in my mind - make Shepard the creepy weirdo.

Wereparrot wrote...

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?

Pretty much heard that loud and clear on Horizon.  And by "that" I mean "the relationship has changed" and not "I am no longer interested in attempting to resume a relationship."  They're different.

Of course if Shepard wants to get back with Ashley or Kaidan, that's fine - they can do that no problem.   But there's a reason I typed "get back" and not "continue as if nothing had happened."

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Sorry, guys; it's cheating.

No.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[Pups_of_war_76]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Sorry, guys; it's cheating.

No.

I'm afraid so. 

[Leonia]

Given the e-mail response from Kaidan, it seemed he moved on so why shouldn't Shepard feel free to do so? Have also read the Ashley e-mail on the Wiki and while it is less forthcoming on that matter, Horizon made things pretty darn clear. Two years is a long time, enough time to allow one to mourn and move on (if they choose to do so). From everything I have seen of Ashley, she seems fairly practical and rational when it comes to how and why she feels the way she does about any subject matter, I suspect this includes her feelings for Shepard as well.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I'm guessing that if you romanced Kaidan or Ashley, slept with someone else in ME2, then try to get back with Kaidan or Ashley... those issues might be brought up. HOWEVER, if you choose to stay with the ME2 LI, then it really wouldn't be "cheating" at all.

If Shepard returns to Kaidan or Ashley (regardless of a LI in ME2 or not) acting like nothing has happened, then I will be disappoint.

[Pups_of_war_76]

leonia42 wrote...

Given the e-mail response from Kaidan, it seemed he moved on so why shouldn't Shepard feel free to do so?

Kaidan didn't move on, though. He attempted to start dating again after being badgered into it by well-meaning friends, but wasn't able to commit to it because, on an emotional level, he had very much not gotten over Shepard. 

Modifié par Pups_of_war_76, 26 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .

[ipgd]

Wereparrot wrote...

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?

The relationship was dead. Shepard was literally dead for two years. If there were any doubt at all as to the status of their relationship, it definitively ended on Horizon. The emails Ashley/Kaidan send obviously indicate they still have feelings for Shepard, but that the relationship is pretty obviously not current.

Subject: Hey there.

Shepard-

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.

--Ash

Death closes all: but something ere the end
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

Shepard,

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. I spent two years pulling myself back together after you went down with the Normandy. It took me a long time to get over my guilt for surviving and move on. I'd finally let my friends talk me into going out for drinks with a doctor on the Citadel. Nothing serious, but trying to let myself have a life again, you know?

Then I saw you, and everything pulled hard to port. You were standing in front of me, but you were with Cerberus. I guess I really don't know who either of us is anymore. Do you even remember that night before Ilos? That night meant everything to me... maybe it meant as much to you. But a lot has changed in the last two years and I can't just put that aside.

But please be careful. I've watched too many people close to me die -- on Eden Prime, on Virmire, on Horizon, on the Normandy. I couldn't bear it if I lost you again. If you're still the woman I remember I know you'll find a way to stop these Collector attacks. But Cerberus is too dangerous to be trusted. Watch yourself.

When things settle down a little... maybe... I don't know. Just take care.

--Kaidan

[Leonia]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Given the e-mail response from Kaidan, it seemed he moved on so why shouldn't Shepard feel free to do so?

Kaidan didn't move on, though. He attempted to start dating again after being badgered into it by well-meaning friends, but wasn't able to commit to it because, on an emotional level, he had very much not gotten over Shepard. 

That's too bad for him, my Shepard moved on and if Kaidan had any sense he would do the same. How can he expect things to go back to how they were two years ago? So much has changed, Shepard has changed.. Kaidan has changed.

The same can apply to Ash as well.

[ipgd]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Kaidan didn't move on, though. He attempted to start dating again after being badgered into it by well-meaning friends, but wasn't able to go through with it because, on an emotional level, he had very much not gotten over Shepard. 

Whether or not Kaidan is emotionally over Shepard has no bearing on whether their relationship has ended. You can have feelings for someone you are not currently in a relationship with, you know.

Feelings or no, Shepard was dead, and his/her welcoming from the VS on Horizon is about as close to an obvious end as you can get. Perhaps they will be able to get back together in the future, but Shepard and the VS certainly do not have an ongoing established relationship during the events of ME2.

[Pups_of_war_76]

ipgd wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Kaidan didn't move on, though. He attempted to start dating again after being badgered into it by well-meaning friends, but wasn't able to go through with it because, on an emotional level, he had very much not gotten over Shepard. 

Whether or not Kaidan is emotionally over Shepard has no bearing on whether their relationship has ended. You can have feelings for someone you are not currently in a relationship with, you know.

Feelings or no, Shepard was dead, and his/her welcoming from the VS on Horizon is about as close to an obvious end as you can get. Perhaps they will be able to get back together in the future, but Shepard and the VS certainly do not have an ongoing established relationship during the events of ME2.

Why do you perceive what transpires on Horizon to be a break-up?

[Leonia]

Because the VS chose duty over love? They could have supported Shepard, who they supposedly have ongoing feelings for, but chose not to. Hell, even Garrus and Tali still stick by Shepard despite the Cerberus connection.

[ipgd]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Why do you perceive what transpires on Horizon to be a break-up?

I perceive being dead for two years as a breakup. I perceive not having any substantial contact or interaction with the VS for the duration of ME2 to be evidence that their relationship is not current. I perceive the events on Horizon to indicate that the VS is currently not ready to rekindle a romantic relationship with Shepard. And if they are not in a relationship, it is not cheating.

Modifié par ipgd, 26 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Why do you perceive what transpires on Horizon to be a break-up?

Various quotes from the conversation (from Kaidan anyway):


Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.

Kaidan: You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance solider. Always will be.
Kaidan: I've got to report back to the Citadel. They can decide if they believe your story or not.

> Don't go. Join me.
     Shepard: I could use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times.
     Kaidan: No, it won't. I'll never work for Cerberus.
> Goodbye.
     Shepard: So long, Kaidan.
     Kaidan: So long, Commander. Good luck.
> Fat chance.
     Shepard: We both know how that's gonna turn out. The Alliance will try to blame Cerberus just like you did.
     Kaidan: A leopard can't change its spots. Cerberus can't be trusted.

Add that with the e-mail and Kelly's consolation on the Normandy and it smells like a "it's over" pretty much.

I have not romanced either VS thus far but if they turn out to make some issue out of Shepard moving on in ME2 with someone else, I will probably not care to do so in the future.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:00 .

[Wereparrot]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

And what does Shepard know of that? Especially now that he's alive again? The relationship was hardly old when Shepard 'died', and if Shepard was 'dead' then he cannot possibly rewrite his feelings towards Ashley because he has none; and if, as we are led to believe, the Lazarus Project was successful, shouldn't he then 'wake up' with the same feelings he had previously?[/quote]

I don't know about you, but I figure my Shepard is capable of stepping out of his own two feet and thinking about Ashley's perspective and broadly speaking, how their situation has changed.

In fact, not attempting to do this would - in my mind - make Shepard the creepy weirdo.[/quote]

That seems like you're trying to dictate how Ashley feels. It just seems arrogant that you can assume to determine her feelings in this way.

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?
[/quote]

Pretty much heard that loud and clear on Horizon.  And by "that" I mean "the relationship has changed" and not "I am no longer interested in attempting to resume a relationship."  They're different.

Of course if Shepard wants to get back with Ashley or Kaidan, that's fine - they can do that no problem.   But there's a reason I typed "get back" and not "continue as if nothing had happened."

[/quote]

What about the letter on the Normandy? She's going going to be annoyed with you if  you ignore it, and with good reason. If you can reply to it and tell her it's over, then it's not cheating, but you can't.

She hints that she might like to get back together, but I don't think this neccessarily implies that she thought the relationship over. I for one completely and forgive her 'Horizon tantrum'; she's obviously hurt and isn't over Shepard. So if she's not over Shephard, how could she move on?  

[Rinji the Bearded]

Wereparrot wrote...

What about the letter on the Normandy? She's going going to be annoyed with you if  you ignore it, and with good reason. If you can reply to it and tell her it's over, then it's not cheating, but you can't.

She hints that she might like to get back together, but I don't think this neccessarily implies that she thought the relationship over. I for one completely and forgive her 'Horizon tantrum'; she's obviously hurt and isn't over Shepard. So if she's not over Shephard, how could she move on?  

What part of the e-mail says she wants to get back with Shepard?

[Pups_of_war_76]

ipgd wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Why do you perceive what transpires on Horizon to be a break-up?

I perceive being dead for two years as a breakup. I perceive not having any substantial contact or interaction with the VS for the duration of ME2 to be evidence that their relationship is not current. 

Why?

[ipgd]

Wereparrot wrote...

So if she's not over Shephard, how could she move on? 

Whether or not she is over Shepard has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she is currently in a relationship with Shepard. They are not, because she indicated at the very least that she is currently not ready to get back together with him. So it's not cheating. Because they aren't together. Currently.

[IronSabbath88]

Honestly, I don't know what everyone's big fuss is. It's obvious Ashley and Kaidan still have some feelings for Shepard. Otherwise they wouldn't even bother with the email, would they?

Anyways, besides that point. Let's look at the facts, Cerberus weren't exactly angels in ME1. Especially if you did the side quests. Christ, they were responsible for the death of an Alliance admiral, and in some cases Ash and Kaidan were there with you or at least know of it, and they also know about every other dirty deed Cerberus has done in the past. Cerberus is also a devout enemy of both the Council and the Alliance. So of COURSE they're going to be a little ticked by that fact. But if your Shepard clearly had good intentions, why will it affect their standing with you? Especially as a Paragon you pretty much tell TIM to shove it anyway and the Alliance is where you stand in ME3, so they'll be more open to trust you than before. I'm sure there will be some sort of confrontation about what happened in ME2 at some point in the game.