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[ipgd]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I perceive being dead for two years as a breakup. I perceive not having any substantial contact or interaction with the VS for the duration of ME2 to be evidence that their relationship is not current. 

Why?

How many relationships have you had that do not include speaking with your partner?

[Pups_of_war_76]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Why do you perceive what transpires on Horizon to be a break-up?

Various quotes from the conversation (from Kaidan anyway):


Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.

Kaidan: You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance solider. Always will be.
Kaidan: I've got to report back to the Citadel. They can decide if they believe your story or not.

> Don't go. Join me.
     Shepard: I could use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times.
     Kaidan: No, it won't. I'll never work for Cerberus.
> Goodbye.
     Shepard: So long, Kaidan.
     Kaidan: So long, Commander. Good luck.
> Fat chance.
     Shepard: We both know how that's gonna turn out. The Alliance will try to blame Cerberus just like you did.
     Kaidan: A leopard can't change its spots. Cerberus can't be trusted.

None of those things seem very relevant to the issue at hand, to me. 

I can see being upset at the implicit lack of trust in Shepard's association with Cerberus that is displayed there, although I think it is thoroughly justified considering the context, but that's a whole different ball of wax. If anything, the fixation on Cerberus during Horizon indicates that the VS's feelings on that matter are conflating their feelings toward Shepard badly enough that it's unfair to expect real reconciliation. 

[Pups_of_war_76]

ipgd wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I perceive being dead for two years as a breakup. I perceive not having any substantial contact or interaction with the VS for the duration of ME2 to be evidence that their relationship is not current. 

Why?

How many relationships have you had that do not include speaking with your partner?

That's not an apt analogy. The context of Shepard and his/her LI's situation is wildly different from anything anybody here would be expected to have experienced. 

Shepard and the ME1 LI aren't willfully avoiding contact; there is a set of contrived circumstances which prevents it. 

[Leonia]

Wait, so who is forcing Kaidan to side with the Alliance and not Shepard? Oh wait, Kaidan made that choice. He seems willing enough to NOT continue the relationship. Doesn't even bother to stay in contact throughout ME2 minus the one e-mail where he explicitly says he has tried to move on.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

I can see being upset at the implicit lack of trust in Shepard's association with Cerberus that is displayed there, although I think it is thoroughly justified considering the context, but that's a whole different ball of wax. If anything, the fixation on Cerberus during Horizon indicates that the VS's feelings on that matter are conflating their feelings toward Shepard badly enough that it's unfair to expect real reconciliation. 

But nothing about his e-mail indicated that he wanted to get back with Shepard, either.  He said "maybe, I don't know."  It's fine that he has lingering feelings, but if he's expecting Shepard to remain "loyal" after what he said, I'd think he was a royal a**hole.

The VS apparently can decide that they could move on, but Shepard can't?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:14 .

[Wereparrot]

ipgd wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So it is not prudent to wait to determine that the relationship is dead before you jump into bed with Miranda?

The relationship was dead. Shepard was literally dead for two years. If there were any doubt at all as to the status of their relationship, it definitively ended on Horizon. The emails Ashley/Kaidan send obviously indicate they still have feelings for Shepard, but that the relationship is pretty obviously not current.

Subject: Hey there.

Shepard-

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.

--Ash

Death closes all: but something ere the end
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

So? You assume an awul lot from a few lines of a letter that nowhere hint that the relationship is over.

'I can't go where you're going...'=I can't be with you right now, I have my my own mission, maybe still confused...'

So it tore her up when Shepharf died. And if she thought her prayers were answered, she clearly wanted him back like old times as if nothing had happened.

How can you read the verse and say it's all over? She clearly still has feelings for Shephard. 

[ipgd]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

That's not an apt analogy. The context of Shepard and his/her LI's situation is wildly different from anything anybody here would be expected to have experienced. 

Shepard and the ME1 LI aren't willfully avoiding contact; there is a set of contrived circumstances which prevents it.

The VS sends Shepard an email, so they obviously have some venue of communication open to them. They could have an "LDR" if the VS were actually interested in getting back together with Shepard, but as those emails obviously indicate, neither of them are ready to do so at the moment. And as such, the relationship is not current. If the relationship is not current, it is not cheating.

[Leonia]

I'm married but I know a guy who still has feelings for me. Does that mean I am cheating on him?

[Pups_of_war_76]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

I can see being upset at the implicit lack of trust in Shepard's association with Cerberus that is displayed there, although I think it is thoroughly justified considering the context, but that's a whole different ball of wax. If anything, the fixation on Cerberus during Horizon indicates that the VS's feelings on that matter are conflating their feelings toward Shepard badly enough that it's unfair to expect real reconciliation. 

But nothing about his e-mail indicated that he wanted to get back with Shepard, either.  He said "maybe, I don't know."  It's fine that he has lingering feelings, but if he's expecting Shepard to remain "loyal" after what he said, I'd think he was a royal a**hole.

The VS apparently can decide that they could move on, but Shepard can't?

The first problem with what you're saying is that the VS did not decide they could move on.

Where did yo get that idea?

The second problem is that the context in which the VS would decide to move on is different from that in which Shepard would decide to cheat. 

[Wereparrot]

ipgd wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So if she's not over Shephard, how could she move on? 

Whether or not she is over Shepard has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she is currently in a relationship with Shepard. They are not, because she indicated at the very least that she is currently not ready to get back together with him. So it's not cheating. Because they aren't together. Currently.

That's not neccessarily a break up, and it doesn't stop either from staying faithful to the other.

[ipgd]

Wereparrot wrote...

So? You assume an awul lot from a few lines of a letter that nowhere hint that the relationship is over.

'I can't go where you're going...'=I can't be with you right now, I have my my own mission, maybe still confused...'

So it tore her up when Shepharf died. And if she thought her prayers were answered, she clearly wanted him back like old times as if nothing had happened.

How can you read the verse and say it's all over? She clearly still has feelings for Shephard. 

Having feelings for Shepard does not mean she is currently in a relationship with Shepard.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

The first problem with what you're saying is that the VS did not decide they could move on.

Where did yo get that idea?

The second problem is that the context in which the VS would decide to move on is different from that in which Shepard would decide to cheat. 

The VS still has feelings for Shepard, but you can have feelings for someone and not be in a relationship with them. 
Shepard does not actively decide to cheat on the VS -- he/she has no reason to believe that the relationship could feasibly continue, unless you count Kaidan's flimsy "maybe after all of this is over... I don't know," as a "WE ARE STILL TOGETHER SHEPARD."

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:23 .

[Pups_of_war_76]

ipgd wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

That's not an apt analogy. The context of Shepard and his/her LI's situation is wildly different from anything anybody here would be expected to have experienced. 

Shepard and the ME1 LI aren't willfully avoiding contact; there is a set of contrived circumstances which prevents it.

The VS sends Shepard an email, so they obviously have some venue of communication open to them. They could have an "LDR" if the VS were actually interested in getting back together with Shepard, but as those emails obviously indicate, neither of them are ready to do so at the moment. And as such, the relationship is not current. If the relationship is not current, it is not cheating.

The emails indicate that they are receptive to continuing the relationship.

That leaves the ball on Shepard's end of the court. 

Considering that Shepard can't reply to the emails, it strikes me as really difficult to say that Ash or Kaidan did not try hard enough to mend things.

They made a move. Shepard did not. The only way to respond to them is to decide whether to cheat or not. 

"They aren't talking to Shep; therefore the relationship is null" doesn't seem an apt way to describe the situation, considering that they got the last word in. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

The emails indicate that they are receptive to continuing the relationship.

That leaves the ball on Shepard's end of the court. 

Considering that Shepard can't reply to the emails, it strikes me as really difficult to say that Ash or Kaidan did not try hard enough to mend things.

They made a move. Shepard did not. The only way to respond to them is to decide whether to cheat or not. 

"They aren't talking to Shep; therefore the relationship is null" doesn't seem an apt way to describe the situation, considering that they got the last word in. 

Did you know you can end a relationship and then pick it up later on if the feelings are in the right place?

I know from personal experience.  And never was I accused of "cheating" between those times.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:24 .

[Pups_of_war_76]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

The first problem with what you're saying is that the VS did not decide they could move on.

Where did yo get that idea?

The second problem is that the context in which the VS would decide to move on is different from that in which Shepard would decide to cheat. 

The VS still has feelings for Shepard, but you can have feelings for someone and not be in a relationship with them. 
Shepard does not actively decide to cheat on the VS -- he/she has no reason to believe that the relationship could feasibly continue, unless you count Kaidan's flimsy "maybe after all of this is over... I don't know," as a "WE ARE STILL TOGETHER SHEPARD."

What you're saying doesn't seem like it really addresses what I was saying. 

[Leonia]

And you can decide all that from one single e-mail?

If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they wouldn't have abandoned Shepard at Horizon. If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they would have said so in that one e-mail in a clear fashion. If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they would have tried to communicate more than once.

They did none of those things. The feelings very well may be there but actions speak louder than words. Shepard died, the relationship ended then.

Horizon was the VS's opportunity to re-open the door of the relationship and by their own willpower they chose not to do so. They had another opportunity and again they chose not to do so when they sent the one e-mail. And then they failed to send another e-mail after the first. That's three opportunities they gave up.

Regardless if Shepard was allowed to respond or not (and how could he/she given the game mechanics, in all honesty, had he/she wanted to?) the VS had already made their intentions known.

Modifié par leonia42, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[LilyasAvalon]

Okay, whoever said that dieing does not count as a break up... That's just stupid. <_<

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:28 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...
What you're saying doesn't seem like it really addresses what I was saying. 

Seemed to make perfect sense to me.  VS obviously has feelings for Shepard, but these feelings didn't come in the way in their decision to tell Shepard off about Cerberus.  And neither e-mail indicates they intend to continue -- or if they do, it's very flimsy and Shepard has no reason to believe that they will see either of them again in the same way, if at all.

[Slurms McKenzie]

"We were on a break!"

[Pups_of_war_76]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

The emails indicate that they are receptive to continuing the relationship.

That leaves the ball on Shepard's end of the court. 

Considering that Shepard can't reply to the emails, it strikes me as really difficult to say that Ash or Kaidan did not try hard enough to mend things.

They made a move. Shepard did not. The only way to respond to them is to decide whether to cheat or not. 

"They aren't talking to Shep; therefore the relationship is null" doesn't seem an apt way to describe the situation, considering that they got the last word in. 

Did you know you can end a relationship and then pick it up later on if the feelings are in the right place?

I know from personal experience.  And never was I accused of "cheating" between those times.

Condescension is alright. Digressions are alright too. Both of those things together are not alright;, so if you aren't going to start addressing things more coherently I'm going to have to ask you to stop replying to my posts. 

These repeated sylogisms of yours aren't very productive; how about you actually reply to the issues of context which are brought up in the posts to which you are replying, rather than continuing with this weird bulldozing?

[Leonia]

What the heck, Rinji brings up a good point. You are failing to address her post.

If you don't have a defense then you don't have a defense, but don't try to play the "you're ignoring my posts" card.

Modifié par leonia42, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

The emails indicate that they are receptive to continuing the relationship.

That leaves the ball on Shepard's end of the court. 

Considering that Shepard can't reply to the emails, it strikes me as really difficult to say that Ash or Kaidan did not try hard enough to mend things.

They made a move. Shepard did not. The only way to respond to them is to decide whether to cheat or not. 

"They aren't talking to Shep; therefore the relationship is null" doesn't seem an apt way to describe the situation, considering that they got the last word in. 

Did you know you can end a relationship and then pick it up later on if the feelings are in the right place?

I know from personal experience.  And never was I accused of "cheating" between those times.

Condescension is alright. Digressions are alright too. Both of those things together are not alright;, so if you aren't going to start addressing things more coherently I'm going to have to ask you to stop replying to my posts. 

These repeated sylogisms of yours aren't very productive; how about you actually reply to the issues of context which are brought up in the posts to which you are replying, rather than continuing with this weird bulldozing?

Maybe if you actually read my response, you'd see that I addressed it completely.  I can't really help you comprehend it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:38 .

[Pups_of_war_76]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...
What you're saying doesn't seem like it really addresses what I was saying. 

Seemed to make perfect sense to me.  VS obviously has feelings for Shepard, but these feelings didn't come in the way in their decision to tell Shepard off about Cerberus.  And neither e-mail indicates they intend to continue -- or if they do, it's very flimsy and Shepard has no reason to believe that they will see either of them again in the same way, if at all.

It doesn't, though. You mentioned that you thought it was hypocritical to consider the VS's decision to move on okay while not considering Shepard's decision to move on to be okay. I mentioned that the VS did not move on, and that, even if they had, the circumstances are completely different for them. 

What you're saying here only makes sense if telling Shepard off about Cerberus = moving on, and that's just silly, so I assumed that wasn't what you were getting at. 

[ipgd]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

It doesn't, though. You mentioned that you thought it was hypocritical to consider the VS's decision to move on okay while not considering Shepard's decision to move on to be okay. I mentioned that the VS did not move on, and that, even if they had, the circumstances are completely different for them.

Wait, are you implying that you think the VS believed they were still in a relationship with a dead person?