229 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

That's fine, to have feelings for Shepard still. To imply there is still an ongoing relationship going on throughout ME2 ISN'T fine. Therefore Shepard cannot be accused of cheating.

[Pups_of_war_76]

ipgd wrote...

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

It doesn't, though. You mentioned that you thought it was hypocritical to consider the VS's decision to move on okay while not considering Shepard's decision to move on to be okay. I mentioned that the VS did not move on, and that, even if they had, the circumstances are completely different for them.

Wait, are you implying that you think the VS believed they were still in a relationship with a dead person?

I'm "implying" that they still have feelings for Shepard and thus have not 'moved on' in that sense, and that this shouldn't inform Shepard's actions that much anyways considering that the circumstances are very, very different.

I'm not saying that Shepard's death shouldn't affect her, I'm saying that it shouldn't affect her in a "They moved on! I guess I have to move on too!" way and I have a really hard time understanding where the original "why is it okay for the VS to move on but not for Shepard to do so?" thing is coming from, since there are reasons this would be the case even if they had. 

Modifié par Pups_of_war_76, 26 juillet 2011 - 04:46 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Mash Mashington wrote...

I think Pups means that they still hurt because of their loss (the loss being Sheppie)

And that's fine, but I'm pretty sure the both of them knew the relationship was over the moment they knew Shepard was dead.  It's fine to have lingering feelings, but the relationship is no longer current.

[LilyasAvalon]

The only case I see it really as cheating is with Liara, the romance doesn't seem to be over on either side, especially since we now know that Liara purposefully gave up Shepard's body to Cerberus because she couldn't let Shepard go.

She also had no intention of moving on and her reasons for not being able to join Shepard were legit (Tracking down the Shadow Broker and taking his place is serious business). So it's... like a long distance relationship more or less, least that's how I viewed it.

...I know that's not what we're arguing about, but I wanted to share my viewpoint.

[LilyasAvalon]

Also, moving on emotionally and moving on relationship wise are two entirely different things...

[Shad0wOGRE]

I tend to believe that death, lasting more than a month, automatically resets your relationship status to single, if you happen to be lucky enough to return to life.

I'm going to have to do a few replays where I remain loyal to Liara and Ashley. Alenko never survives Virmire. Might have to do a playthrough where he does.

[LilyasAvalon]

CommanderNuetral wrote...

I tend to believe that death, lasting more than a month, automatically resets your relationship status to single, if you happen to be lucky enough to return to life.

I'm going to have to do a few replays where I remain loyal to Liara and Ashley. Alenko never survives Virmire. Might have to do a playthrough where he does.

...Now when you say 'death', do you mean Shepard dead or Cast Away 'dead'?

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:08 .

[ReallyRue]

Ooh, a thread makes sense. I should mark this day on my calender.

I always find the "cheating" label annoying. Firstly, Shep was dead. If Ash/Kaidan/Liara thought the relationship could continue despite that, then they were clearly just desperate. Also, what happened with them and Shepard always looked to me like a one-night fling between friends. Seeing as it's always right before the final battle, there's no real opportunity to build a relationship. There's also the fact that Shepard was about to go on a suicide mission. What's the point of reviving an old relationship if you might die? Lastly, there's Ashley/Kaidan actively dumping Shepard on Horizon.

All that considered, the idea of Shepard being a dirty cheater is pretty harsh. Worse still if fights appear in ME3 as a result of it.

[Ritara]

I also didn't like the all *cheating* call of something that was about to happen when Shepard gets dumped in horizon and not in a very good way, and then all he/she get is an email.The relationship is over and then he can move on to a new and maybe more solid relationship....just saying

[frostajulie]

I just seriously hope that they don't write the lines as horribly as the horizon lines were. I don't want my sheps to get out of character. I have 1 shep that would be firm but nice another that would flush Kaiden out the airlock if given the option and a weasly player that would ditch her ME2 LI no problem. Man I am getting really excited about this March can't get here soon enough

[Wereparrot]

leonia42 wrote...


If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they wouldn't have abandoned Shepard at Horizon.

Oh, of course not. No, the VS would jump straight back into bed with Shepard, no questions asked. No issues to sort out at all between the pair of them.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:45 .

[Mondo47]

God, this whole "cheating" thing makes me bite on my fillings... <_<

Let's look at this step by step. Shep starts a relationship during a fairly tense period with a member of his crew. Time spent on the whole affair is short and limited due to the desperate situation (both Ashley and Kaidan talk about "that night" like it was the only time they were ever intimate) and the praticalities of serving on a military vessel. The crisis is averted, a short amount of time passes, and then Shepard meets her/his ignominious demise at the hands of the Collectors.

Shepard dies, but is resurrected two years later. Life for him/her hit pause upon death, and then suddenly restarted with two years of lost time to suddenly account for. For the Virmire Survivor/Liara, two years have passed. While a romanced Liara could perhaps take some comfort in the knowledge that Shepard will eventually return to her, Ashley and Kaidan have no such emotional buffer-zone; their lover is gone, never to return, death in general not being reversable. They grieve, and eventually move on, as is normal in these situations.

Life though has been on hold for Shepard. She/he has the same feelings they had for their significant other they had ten minutes before the Normandy blew. It has to be something akin to waking from a coma; while you haven't moved or changed one jot, the whole universe has moved on, only you were dead - you don't just wake up a few weeks/months/years down the line. You were gone. As upsetting as it might be, it's only natural to expect the people you care about to have got on with their lives. Frankly, if Shepard expected Ash, Kaidan or Liara to just pine away at their tombside they're delusional on a scale that beggars belief. I'd seriously wonder if anyone taking that stance had not figured out how relationships work on a pocket calculator as opposed to through experience.

Anyway, Shep comes back, runs into her/his old love on Horizon or on Illium. It's brief, but the encounters leave Shepard in no clearer a position as before; it's obvious things have changed, water has passed under bridges and the feelings they may still have for the person who was only in their life a few weeks ago as a lover is now angry, resentful or chilly and distant. If the practicalities of that amount of time away weren't apparent to Shepard before, then they have to be now... if the relationship isn't over, then it has certainly changed. Shepard may not have budged, but their partner has in some ways. Time has never stopped.

So Shepard is now in a place where she/he has no clue as to where they stand. He/she has to accept the change in situation (or confess to being completely delusional to the point of requiring serious psychological help). One party has moved on and now has the choice to move back, the other now has to move on themselves or attempt to rekindle the relationship. During the two years of Shepard's absence, it isn't inconceivable that Shepard's partner began seeing other people; Kaidan admits in his email that he has begun seeing people again after his period of grieving, while it is not stated it isn't beyond belief that Ashley has done the same, and Liara has had a close relationship with Feron (admittedly platonic, but Shepard only has their word to go on after the fact... and it's human nature to be suspicious, especially when one has been gone for so long and feelings are so strong that someone is willing to kill people without a by or leave to get the kidnapped party back). At this point, little other than the beginnings of friendships have begun for Shepard. He/she has yet to act on any attraction to a new person, or on the understanding that their previous romance has "moved on" and they should perhaps do the same... Shepard at least is in romance-limbo; a fork in the road. Find someone new or reconcile.

From that perspective, if this whole situation represents unfaithfulness on anyone's part, the Virmire Survivor has cheated on Shepard. Even if you're willing to let that slide as being too vague to put credence in, you cannot honestly expect people to wait forever to get on with their lives once you die in case by happenstance you get better. It's absurd. Only Liara can claim any kind of potential grievance at Shepard moving into a new relationship as she is the only one who had any kind of hopeful torch to hold on to, and even then, it is a bit unreasonable if Shepard has opted to let things lie and move on with his/her new life (something I think reflected in Liara's acceptance of the new situation in LotSB)... because this is kinda what it amounts to - a new start for Shepard. While calling the flux in Shepard's romantic life "cheating"  for wont of a better word (because the situation is so ambiguous and in constant motion it's hard to apply one word to) is ok, to consider it actual premeditated, callous unfaithfulness and then hold a sword over someone for it (the carrot/stick statement of "People who are faithful will be rewarded") is bonkers or naive to the nth power.

Cheating... honestly!

[Calamity Abounds]

The least derpy exchange I ever achieved on Horizon followed the top right for the first response, neutral for the second, and bottom right choice for the third.  I also had Garrus there to question her reasoning and he tries putting it in perspective better than Shep.Instead of Miranda who says how Ash is dumb just because she's alliance, Garrus tries to reason that they are in it to help the colonists and have no interest in what Cerberus stands for. Though I will admit I have not found a decent formula for a romanced Ashley.

Modifié par Calamity Abounds, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:51 .

[Ritara]

@Mondo47 i completely agree

[Leonia]

Wereparrot wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they wouldn't have abandoned Shepard at Horizon.

Oh, of course not. No, the VS would jump straight back into bed with Shepard, no questions asked. No issues to sort out at all between the pair of them.

And how did what I say turn into "they have no issues to resolve" ? The VS had every opportunity to rekindle the romance, they could have gone with Shepard and said "Hey, I'm glad to be back, but let's sort some things out before we continue where we left off" or they could have been "Hey, I'm glad to be back, maybe we should take things slow and see where things go" or it could have been a simple "Hey, do you want to get things going between us again right away?". But of course none of those conversations could occur because the VS already chose to not give it a chance.

@Mondo47: Excellent post!

Modifié par leonia42, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[Wereparrot]

leonia42 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they wouldn't have abandoned Shepard at Horizon.

Oh, of course not. No, the VS would jump straight back into bed with Shepard, no questions asked. No issues to sort out at all between the pair of them.

And how did what I say turn into "they have no issues to resolve" ? The VS had every opportunity to rekindle the romance, they could have gone with Shepard and said "Hey, I'm glad to be back, but let's sort some things out before we continue where we left off" or they could have been "Hey, I'm glad to be back, maybe we should take things slow and see where things go" or it could have been a simple "Hey, do you want to get things going between us again right away?". But of course none of those conversations could occur because the VS already chose to not give it a chance.

@Mondo47: Excellent post!

You don't think that in the heat of the moment and the hurt so obviously evident that the VS either forgot or was too angry to be reasonable and regretted it later, hence the letter? In the heat of the moment, things are often said that aren't meant and things aren't said that in hindsight people wish they'd said. Ashley does apologise for her actions and I accept it, in contrast to most other people it would seem. Why does no one seem to give the VS the benefit of the doubt?

[PauseforEffect]

@Mondo47-It's so hard to read your post and not smile. That speech fits your PInkie Pie profile SO well.
@KamikazeShepard-In case my own comment has not showed on this thread, you nailed my reasons for being so frustrated with Kaiden.
If you're in pain from losing someone, you don't &itchslap them when they come back. You hold tight and never let go.
...until they pull their gun on you and say, "leggo."

[Faerlyte]

Wereparrot wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


If the VS had wanted to continue a relationship, they wouldn't have abandoned Shepard at Horizon.

Oh, of course not. No, the VS would jump straight back into bed with Shepard, no questions asked. No issues to sort out at all between the pair of them.

And how did what I say turn into "they have no issues to resolve" ? The VS had every opportunity to rekindle the romance, they could have gone with Shepard and said "Hey, I'm glad to be back, but let's sort some things out before we continue where we left off" or they could have been "Hey, I'm glad to be back, maybe we should take things slow and see where things go" or it could have been a simple "Hey, do you want to get things going between us again right away?". But of course none of those conversations could occur because the VS already chose to not give it a chance.

@Mondo47: Excellent post!

You don't think that in the heat of the moment and the hurt so obviously evident that the VS either forgot or was too angry to be reasonable and regretted it later, hence the letter? In the heat of the moment, things are often said that aren't meant and things aren't said that in hindsight people wish they'd said. Ashley does apologise for her actions and I accept it, in contrast to most other people it would seem. Why does no one seem to give the VS the benefit of the doubt?

Well, it doesn't matter if you romance them or not, their behavior is the same on Horizon - the only difference is the apology e-mail later, which is probably the worst way of going about it if you want to come across as truly sincere. E-mail is a sad degradation of emotional communication and I'd be disappointed in a person who resorted to that in order to tell me that they're sorry and, oh by the way, I'm so glad you're alive.

I realize that this discussion is geared more towards the romance/cheating aspect, but the relative behavior if you don't romance them is somewhat disturbing because it implies that the anger and heat of the moment has nothing to do with the fact that these two characters had an intimate relationship - it's just the VS havig a hissy fit. When your two previous alien comrades don't blink an eye to helping you out despite your affiliation with Cerberus, it makes the VS look bad. It says to me that the VS's level of trust is not up to par with character's who have more reason to be distrustful of Shepard's new alliance than the VS does.

In which case, I'd like to reserve the right to say to them, "You know what? I'm sorry it has to end this way, but I think it's best if we see other people". Also, it is very possible to break up with someone on good terms and still be good friends, thereby eliminating the negative repercussions. The fact that you can't apparently do this says to me that the VS is a gigantic pain in the ass to deal with and one I'd just assume avoid if that's how it's going to be.

I understand why Bioware did what they did to an extent. They had to devise reasons for why Liara and the VS won't or can't join you so that they are guaranteed survival in ME3, but it ends up feeling contrived and irrational to me.

Modifié par Faerlyte, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[phyreblade74]

Thinking:

From my Shepard's perspective, there's been no real break in the relationship. Her last memory before she woke up on that table in a Cerebrus lab, she was involved in a relationship with Kaiden. Emotionally, there's been no "moving on", not for her. And while I can consider her working with Cerebrus as a "means to end" sort of thing, for her, I think she would respect Kaiden's angry response to the thing, too. Heck, it's not like Shepard was, herself, happy with the fellows that dragged her back from the dead; my Shepard confronted the Illusive Man with suspicion and mistrust and never really set it aside, either.

So, to me, that makes the events on Horizon make sense. Kaiden is still emotionally vested in a relationship with Shepard but is still processing her resurrection, too. There's some degree of shock attached to that, and his response is tinged with it. He's angry, too, because Shep never contacted him upon waking up. And it's not like she can really "come clean" to him about her work with Cerebus right there in front of everyone, either. My Shepard would have stepped back, given him time and space. Nor would she "blame" him for anything that happened during those two years she was dead, either.

However, I would say any new relationships either of them would choose *after* Shepard had woken up could be construed as a betrayal, of sorts. Once Kaiden knows Shepard is, actually, alive, there is some level of decency attached, I think, in talking to each other about whether to continue or end their relationship. That doesn't happen on Horizon. I could see how "moving on" at that point, with no real clarification allowed the other, might be construed as "cheating".

That's just my game, though. Each person has to chart their Shepard's course as they see fit, hmm?

[Varus Praetor]

I don't know....they never really gave you a chance to have an "it's over" talk with the VS in ME2. I can understand how some would interpret lacking a "closure" conversation as causing a new relationship to qualify as cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I also dumped Ashley for Miranda over the Horizon incident. I just would have liked a chance to tell her about it before moving on.

[phyreblade74]

Varus Praetor wrote...

I don't know....they never really gave you a chance to have an "it's over" talk with the VS in ME2. I can understand how some would interpret lacking a "closure" conversation as causing a new relationship to qualify as cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I also dumped Ashley for Miranda over the Horizon incident. I just would have liked a chance to tell her about it before moving on.

I completely agree, there's never any sort of chance at really completing/ending the one relationship during the game.  There's some hint at "maybe..I dunno..someday after this all over", yes, but still.  MY Shepard is still emotionally vested in that relationship and honestly doesn't feel it's over yet.  She's just trying to get this job done so she can get around to really sitting down with Kaiden to work things through.  She most certainly isn't prepared for some new relationship right now.  She died, anyway.  It takes time to get on with living after something like THAT.

[Han Shot First]

I also have issues with Bioware defining Shepard hooking up with someone else in ME2 as 'cheating,' because it isn't cheating by any definition of the term. In order to be unfaithful you have to be in a relationship, and whether by choice or circumstance Shepard was single in Mass Effect 2.

Shepard is killed in action at the start of Mass Effect 2, and even marriage vows state 'till Death do us part." When Shepard reunites with his or her ME1 romance, he or she gets flat out snubbed by the Virmire Survivor, and Liara indicates that she's not ready to pick up where you left off. At this time Shepard IS NOT in a relationship with either Liara, Ashley, or Kaidan.

So how can it be cheating if he or she then hooks up with any of the Mass Effect 2 romance options?

It is possible for Shepard to cheat depending on when you complete LotSB, but ironically this isn't what the Bioware devs had in mind when they talk about 'cheating,' and there will probably be no repercussions for it in ME3. A character that romances someone in Mass Effect 2 and then sleeps with Liara at the end of LotSB without first breaking it off with the ME2 romance, has cheated on that ME2 love interest. Likewise a character that completes LotSB before the suicide mission and sleeps with Liara, only to shag one of the ME2 squadmates before the suicide mission, has cheated on Liara.

But outside of  the LotSB DLC it isn't possible to cheat on your ME1 romance option with a ME2 romance option in the main game, regardless of how Bioware defines it in ME3.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:33 .