229 réponses à ce sujet

[Fata Morgana]

I think a lot of people are glossing over the fact that the letter - at least, Kaidan's letter - is very deliberately written in such a way that you can take two different conclusions from it: 1) Kaidan wants Shep back 2) Kaidan has moved on. In fact, it's so deliberate, that one of my early reactions to it is that it's a typical douche letter, e.g. "I don't want to date you anymore, but I want to keep you guessing so that we can maybe have casual sex in the future." As a result, I temporarily despised him.

However, now I think I know what the real deal is. Bioware wanted the player to be able to draw whatever conclusion they most liked from that letter. If you want Kaidan to take you back, then there's enough in the letter for you to realize that he will. If you want Kaidan to go screw a thresher maw, the letter is enough of a brush-off for you to not feel guilty about it.

However, anyone saying that there's still an ongoing, current romantic relationship with Kaidan is cray-cray. "Maybe after all this is over. I don't know." is about as limp-wristed as you can get. If Kaidan wanted to maintain a relationship with Shep, then there would have to be something more definitive than "maybe." "Maybe" means there is no relationship now, but there could be.

Also: I personally felt that the most "realistic" way that Shep would respond to Kaidan and all that happened is that she wouldn't be interested in a relationship with anyone at that time. She wouldn't be prepared for it, she wouldn't feel resolved with Kaidan, even if she didn't want to continue a relationship with him. Perhaps she might even feel, "This is what happens when you romance someone on your team; it's a mistake I won't make again."  So my first run was a no romance run.

But there was another possibility for my Shepard: That she would feel betrayed by Kaidan, even if that is an irrational response. And that she would begin to feel a warmth for someone who stayed with her despite how her being "with Cerberus" looked. So I did a second 'canon' run with Shep romancing Garrus. And that one feels right, too.

Modifié par Fata Morgana, 26 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[girltriesgames]

Lurker here chiming in to let you know while I was in line to demo ME3 at ComicCon, the level designer of the demo was feeling really excited and chatty and mentioned the whole "cheating" thing to a few of us while trying to hype us up. He said "some characters... eh.. they don't mind so much. Other characters care... A LOT."

That gives me the impression that the "cheating" thing won't necessarily be exclusive to the VS....

[Fata Morgana]

katchiben wrote...

Lurker here chiming in to let you know while I was in line to demo ME3 at ComicCon, the level designer of the demo was feeling really excited and chatty and mentioned the whole "cheating" thing to a few of us while trying to hype us up. He said "some characters... eh.. they don't mind so much. Other characters care... A LOT."

That gives me the impression that the "cheating" thing won't necessarily be exclusive to the VS....

Wow, thanks for that, it brings up all sorts of possibilities. 

Although... if there ends up being a new character in 3 that I want to romance, I'll probably import my 'no romance' character from 2. I just can't make my Shep be unnecessarily ****y to her squad. 

[Myzzrimm]

Mondo47 wrote...

God, this whole "cheating" thing makes me bite on my fillings... <_<

Let's look at this step by step. Shep starts a relationship during a fairly tense period with a member of his crew. Time spent on the whole affair is short and limited due to the desperate situation (both Ashley and Kaidan talk about "that night" like it was the only time they were ever intimate) and the praticalities of serving on a military vessel. The crisis is averted, a short amount of time passes, and then Shepard meets her/his ignominious demise at the hands of the Collectors.

Shepard dies, but is resurrected two years later. Life for him/her hit pause upon death, and then suddenly restarted with two years of lost time to suddenly account for. For the Virmire Survivor/Liara, two years have passed. While a romanced Liara could perhaps take some comfort in the knowledge that Shepard will eventually return to her, Ashley and Kaidan have no such emotional buffer-zone; their lover is gone, never to return, death in general not being reversable. They grieve, and eventually move on, as is normal in these situations.

Life though has been on hold for Shepard. She/he has the same feelings they had for their significant other they had ten minutes before the Normandy blew. It has to be something akin to waking from a coma; while you haven't moved or changed one jot, the whole universe has moved on, only you were dead - you don't just wake up a few weeks/months/years down the line. You were gone. As upsetting as it might be, it's only natural to expect the people you care about to have got on with their lives. Frankly, if Shepard expected Ash, Kaidan or Liara to just pine away at their tombside they're delusional on a scale that beggars belief. I'd seriously wonder if anyone taking that stance had not figured out how relationships work on a pocket calculator as opposed to through experience.

Anyway, Shep comes back, runs into her/his old love on Horizon or on Illium. It's brief, but the encounters leave Shepard in no clearer a position as before; it's obvious things have changed, water has passed under bridges and the feelings they may still have for the person who was only in their life a few weeks ago as a lover is now angry, resentful or chilly and distant. If the practicalities of that amount of time away weren't apparent to Shepard before, then they have to be now... if the relationship isn't over, then it has certainly changed. Shepard may not have budged, but their partner has in some ways. Time has never stopped.

So Shepard is now in a place where she/he has no clue as to where they stand. He/she has to accept the change in situation (or confess to being completely delusional to the point of requiring serious psychological help). One party has moved on and now has the choice to move back, the other now has to move on themselves or attempt to rekindle the relationship. During the two years of Shepard's absence, it isn't inconceivable that Shepard's partner began seeing other people; Kaidan admits in his email that he has begun seeing people again after his period of grieving, while it is not stated it isn't beyond belief that Ashley has done the same, and Liara has had a close relationship with Feron (admittedly platonic, but Shepard only has their word to go on after the fact... and it's human nature to be suspicious, especially when one has been gone for so long and feelings are so strong that someone is willing to kill people without a by or leave to get the kidnapped party back). At this point, little other than the beginnings of friendships have begun for Shepard. He/she has yet to act on any attraction to a new person, or on the understanding that their previous romance has "moved on" and they should perhaps do the same... Shepard at least is in romance-limbo; a fork in the road. Find someone new or reconcile.

From that perspective, if this whole situation represents unfaithfulness on anyone's part, the Virmire Survivor has cheated on Shepard. Even if you're willing to let that slide as being too vague to put credence in, you cannot honestly expect people to wait forever to get on with their lives once you die in case by happenstance you get better. It's absurd. Only Liara can claim any kind of potential grievance at Shepard moving into a new relationship as she is the only one who had any kind of hopeful torch to hold on to, and even then, it is a bit unreasonable if Shepard has opted to let things lie and move on with his/her new life (something I think reflected in Liara's acceptance of the new situation in LotSB)... because this is kinda what it amounts to - a new start for Shepard. While calling the flux in Shepard's romantic life "cheating"  for wont of a better word (because the situation is so ambiguous and in constant motion it's hard to apply one word to) is ok, to consider it actual premeditated, callous unfaithfulness and then hold a sword over someone for it (the carrot/stick statement of "People who are faithful will be rewarded") is bonkers or naive to the nth power.

Cheating... honestly!

I can't stress enough how much I agree here. The relationship was over, period. 

[GodWood]

Ash/Kaidan: Not cheating
Liara: Cheating

[Made Nightwing]

On my two main Ash playthroughs, one felt that he still had something special with Ashley, and so chose to go for the mission with the mindset that he was fighting for her. The other decided that he might die horribly, and romanced Miranda.

Now, jumping into bed with someone else as a casual thing, is cheating. If Shepard examined his/her feelings, decided that they genuinely didn't care for Ash or Kaidan anymore, that wouldn't be cheating.

[Captain Kibosh]

We...were...on...a...break!

What I found amusing was how Shepard could catch a table dance with a random asari dancer in night clubs of dubious reputation, hunch lecherously forward, then not have his companions, regardless of their relationship with him say one damn thing!

Can you imagine having hooked up with Jack or Miranda and trying to pull that off? I think Tali would probably just run out of the room. Liara would probably find out all the dancer's personal information as the new Shadow Broker and ruin her credit rating. And if you were a Femshep, Lord knows what the fellows would say....

[Wereparrot]

Han Shot First wrote...

I also have issues with Bioware defining Shepard hooking up with someone else in ME2 as 'cheating,' because it isn't cheating by any definition of the term. In order to be unfaithful you have to be in a relationship, and whether by choice or circumstance Shepard was single in Mass Effect 2.

Not neccessarily. If Shepard romanced the VS, then regardless of the current state of the relationship, Shephard owes it to the VS to actually have a decent conversation and assertain where the relationship is at, or if there is one. Considering this, it's dishonourable to begin an affair with anyone else untill you know, and the mere thought that Ashley may have become the ship **** is no excuse to go after some one else. Being faithful to the memory demonstrates faith in the person and in the eventual outcome. Surely it's morally reprehensible to start flirting with other crew members if you and the VS have so many unresolved issues.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 27 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Seboist]

There's one important thing people need to consider, it's not cheating............ unless you get caught!

[Blarty]

My take on things are: Death can kind of change a man, the things we see previously as unimportant sometimes have a knack of being brought sharply into focus. For my canon Shepard, he romanced no-one in ME1, preferring to get the job done. In ME2, after being brought back, his views changed, life is short, even shorter if you live it twice in the same amount of time, hence why he has his LI only in ME2

[Myzzrimm]

Shep DIED. That's pretty much the be all, end all of relationships. Whether it is started up again in me3 is up in the air.

[James2912]

 It's not cheating, it's moving on- thats what I say everytime! Ladies just don't understand me!

[whywhywhywhy]

MegaBadExample wrote...

Vega looks like the kind of fella who drools over bright colours.

ROFL

5 stars my friend 5 stars.

[MegaBadExample]

For me...The relationship is on standby until ME3. My Shep didn't bang anyone in ME2..He stayed faithful.I just got that scene were he stands looking all glum at Ashley's picture.

Hopefully Shep and the VS can work it out then. Thank god for paragon interrupts.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[CheeseEnchilada]

katchiben wrote...

Lurker here chiming in to let you know while I was in line to demo ME3 at ComicCon, the level designer of the demo was feeling really excited and chatty and mentioned the whole "cheating" thing to a few of us while trying to hype us up. He said "some characters... eh.. they don't mind so much. Other characters care... A LOT."

That gives me the impression that the "cheating" thing won't necessarily be exclusive to the VS....

Now this is interesting. Are they talking Liara in LOTSB if you do choose to rekindle that relationship and keep the ME2 relationship? Or will some of the ME2 squadmates get mixed signals and not fully understand the relationship with the ME1 LI?

This just makes Thane being out of the loop even funnier. He's the only one who never actually 'knows' about the relationship with the VS, since you can't bring him to Horizon and he wasn't on your former crew. Now I just imagine every other ME2 squadmate accepting the old LI, with Thane standing there and asking "Who is this?" 

Of course, saying that some characters 'care' could just mean they give an extra line of dialog. Still, it's interesting to wonder who would care that much.

[whywhywhywhy]

Ok, with Liara your not cheating on her if you choose the 'Why can't I have the both of you' option.  She knows right then that your not exactly into moogamy and it doesn't bother her or she would have walked out behind Ashley.  Liara stayed.  Maybe Liara over the course of getting your body and all that decides she wants more.  Certainly explains her standoffish behavoir preDLC and a bit of her behavoir in the DLC.  She knows your views on Cerberus and it makes her feel like you'll hate her for being selfish just to have you back.  She acts like this whether you romance her or not.

If any drama erupts over Liara in me3 I would say it would be because Liara and Shepard would get along so well that the LI would grow uncomfortable/jealous of when the two.  This of course would be intentional on Liara's part because she wants Shepard and It's not that she wants to hurt the LI either, she just knows they won't share. 

If you didn't choose that option and did the SM then LOTSB or reverse and hooked up both times then you cheated.


Now with ashley people are saying this that and the other but it all boils down to this.  If either VS didn't ask where things stood then it's because the relationship was considered over and done with.  Lingering feelings means a thing but just that and sure now that he/she's back they may want to pursue something but they didn't.  The situation between Shepard and the VS is complicated and needs to be talked out, considering death was involved which ends any relationship.  The vs should have said "where are we Shepard ?" who was putting the immediate mission first, afterward returning to the ship they could have had that talk.  Whatever happens happen and the VS could have been on their way after that to resume whatever irrelevant mission they are on.  But the vs put their Career ahead of the known reaper threat and Shepard and didn't look to have that talk they simply said some unkind words and left.

If they were in a relationship the talk of where they are, the confirmation that they are sill looking to make it work would have happened.  Otherwise the feelings just aren't too strong or strong enough for them to find out where things are at with Shepard.  If the VS said something as simple as "I'm too angry to talk to you right now, I'm fighting the urge to shoot you."  Eveyone would love her, because that fits Ash and the things she says would have been taken as emotionl response rather then something she believed. 

Shepard isn't in a relationship wih the VS thus can't cheat on them.

I have a I slept with everyone I can Shepard play through as I want to see how bioware handles that.  I call it max Drama Shepard.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:08 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Captain Kibosh wrote...

Can you imagine having hooked up with Jack or Miranda and trying to pull that off? I think Tali would probably just run out of the room. Liara would probably find out all the dancer's personal information as the new Shadow Broker and ruin her credit rating. And if you were a Femshep, Lord knows what the fellows would say....

Can't we do that in omega ?

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote...
God, this whole "cheating" thing makes me bite on my fillings... <_<

Let's look at this step by step. Shep starts a relationship during a fairly tense period with a member of his crew. Time spent on the whole affair is short and limited due to the desperate situation (both Ashley and Kaidan talk about "that night" like it was the only time they were ever intimate) and the praticalities of serving on a military vessel. The crisis is averted, a short amount of time passes, and then Shepard meets her/his ignominious demise at the hands of the Collectors.

Shepard dies, but is resurrected two years later. Life for him/her hit pause upon death, and then suddenly restarted with two years of lost time to suddenly account for. For the Virmire Survivor/Liara, two years have passed. While a romanced Liara could perhaps take some comfort in the knowledge that Shepard will eventually return to her, Ashley and Kaidan have no such emotional buffer-zone; their lover is gone, never to return, death in general not being reversable. They grieve, and eventually move on, as is normal in these situations.

Life though has been on hold for Shepard. She/he has the same feelings they had for their significant other they had ten minutes before the Normandy blew. It has to be something akin to waking from a coma; while you haven't moved or changed one jot, the whole universe has moved on, only you were dead - you don't just wake up a few weeks/months/years down the line. You were gone. As upsetting as it might be, it's only natural to expect the people you care about to have got on with their lives. Frankly, if Shepard expected Ash, Kaidan or Liara to just pine away at their tombside they're delusional on a scale that beggars belief. I'd seriously wonder if anyone taking that stance had not figured out how relationships work on a pocket calculator as opposed to through experience.

Anyway, Shep comes back, runs into her/his old love on Horizon or on Illium. It's brief, but the encounters leave Shepard in no clearer a position as before; it's obvious things have changed, water has passed under bridges and the feelings they may still have for the person who was only in their life a few weeks ago as a lover is now angry, resentful or chilly and distant. If the practicalities of that amount of time away weren't apparent to Shepard before, then they have to be now... if the relationship isn't over, then it has certainly changed. Shepard may not have budged, but their partner has in some ways. Time has never stopped.

So Shepard is now in a place where she/he has no clue as to where they stand. He/she has to accept the change in situation (or confess to being completely delusional to the point of requiring serious psychological help). One party has moved on and now has the choice to move back, the other now has to move on themselves or attempt to rekindle the relationship. During the two years of Shepard's absence, it isn't inconceivable that Shepard's partner began seeing other people; Kaidan admits in his email that he has begun seeing people again after his period of grieving, while it is not stated it isn't beyond belief that Ashley has done the same, and Liara has had a close relationship with Feron (admittedly platonic, but Shepard only has their word to go on after the fact... and it's human nature to be suspicious, especially when one has been gone for so long and feelings are so strong that someone is willing to kill people without a by or leave to get the kidnapped party back). At this point, little other than the beginnings of friendships have begun for Shepard. He/she has yet to act on any attraction to a new person, or on the understanding that their previous romance has "moved on" and they should perhaps do the same... Shepard at least is in romance-limbo; a fork in the road. Find someone new or reconcile.

From that perspective, if this whole situation represents unfaithfulness on anyone's part, the Virmire Survivor has cheated on Shepard. Even if you're willing to let that slide as being too vague to put credence in, you cannot honestly expect people to wait forever to get on with their lives once you die in case by happenstance you get better. It's absurd. Only Liara can claim any kind of potential grievance at Shepard moving into a new relationship as she is the only one who had any kind of hopeful torch to hold on to, and even then, it is a bit unreasonable if Shepard has opted to let things lie and move on with his/her new life (something I think reflected in Liara's acceptance of the new situation in LotSB)... because this is kinda what it amounts to - a new start for Shepard. While calling the flux in Shepard's romantic life "cheating"  for wont of a better word (because the situation is so ambiguous and in constant motion it's hard to apply one word to) is ok, to consider it actual premeditated, callous unfaithfulness and then hold a sword over someone for it (the carrot/stick statement of "People who are faithful will be rewarded") is bonkers or naive to the nth power.

Cheating... honestly!

As usual, Mondo's somewhat lengthy exposition leaves nothing to be desired. This is a comprehensive account of the situation.

[Uzrbital]

My romance was Tali, and I kissed Liara while she was watching, Tali didn't give a crap about that! And that's why she's perfect!

[Drone223]

Personally I think it is Cheating though that scene was badly written 

[ladyvader]

Uzrbital wrote...

My romance was Tali, and I kissed Liara while she was watching, Tali didn't give a crap about that! And that's why she's perfect!

If you are talking about the kiss by Liara when you get to Illium, you hadn't been with Tali at that point.  Unless you did it after the SM.  Which makes no sense. 

If you are talking about after defeating the SB, Tali wasn't in the room and neither was Feron.  They both walked out to leave Liara and Shepard alone.

[Gottsein]

I think that the LIs that are REALLY going to care about the whole situation will be Ash or Kaidan. I am sure they will come up with some BS about how the e-mail was supposed to be their way of keeping the relationship going.

I have always been a Sony gal, but I cheated on Sony and bought and X-Box 360 to get the full effect of ME1. I romanced Ash and now I know why she was so ticked on Horizon. And then I saw the e-mail. I will admit that it was kinda cool that she apologized and incorporated the whole poem thing, but I still felt like it was over. My Shep moved the hell on with Miranda, who seemed to appreciate him more.

On another note: My Femshep romanced Liara in a playthrough.....Am I the only one that thinks that she is not telling the truth about her and Feron?

[ladyvader]

Gottsein wrote...

I think that the LIs that are REALLY going to care about the whole situation will be Ash or Kaidan. I am sure they will come up with some BS about how the e-mail was supposed to be their way of keeping the relationship going.

I have always been a Sony gal, but I cheated on Sony and bought and X-Box 360 to get the full effect of ME1. I romanced Ash and now I know why she was so ticked on Horizon. And then I saw the e-mail. I will admit that it was kinda cool that she apologized and incorporated the whole poem thing, but I still felt like it was over. My Shep moved the hell on with Miranda, who seemed to appreciate him more.

On another note: My Femshep romanced Liara in a playthrough.....Am I the only one that thinks that she is not telling the truth about her and Feron?

I doubt your the only one.  Someone else was asking about it a few hours ago on the Liara thread.  Me, peronsally, I doubt very much Liara was ever with Feron.  

I don't see Liara cheating on Shepard.  Shepard on the other hand....

EDIT: I think your forgetting her comment in ME about how she has never melding with anyone before her meld with Shepard on their way to Ilos.

Modifié par ladyvader, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[Gottsein]

I do remember her saying that, but just like Ash and Kaidan seemed to move on, I think it's possible she did too. She was waaaaaay too emotional about Feron..... I hope she's not lying. My Femshep hasn't cheated on her. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw that kind of loophole in ME3 though.