I don't think anyone is saying that any one single colony would have a population of a billion humans. However, given that Earth was likely severely overpopulated at the dawn of the mass effect age, the rapid buildup of ships by the Alliance, an already-existing galactic community, and the existence of Prothean/other alien culture infrastructure on many abandoned worlds (remember, the colonists on Feros were using the old Prothean infrastructure), it isn't impossible that colonies with populations in the tens of millions could develop over the intervening years, when you add in new births to that number.
I do agree that the ridiculously short time period between the discovery of the mass relays and ME1 makes humanity's relative prominence in the galaxy a touch difficult to grasp, but on the flip side of the coin, the most prosperous human colony only having a population of ~4 million makes it difficult to believe that humanity is as prominent as it is in the galaxy, at least from my perspective.
Human Population Levels
Débuté par
VStar
, juil. 26 2011 02:32
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#52
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 06:50
Sgt Stryker
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FRANCESCO84Inn wrote...
this is the number of human population :
Excellent find! Notice how that datapad makes no mention of any of the planets listed by the OP, or Trident.
#53
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 07:00
jamesp81
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I think that the planet scans are not canon. There was apparently a disconnect over at BW over what is canon and what is not.
Kind of like the disconnect between the codex writers and the final cutscene of ME1. In the last scene of ME1, the big Alliance ships are supposed to be dreadnoughts. But that would mean the Alliance had more dreadnoughts than allowed by treaty, so BW pronounced them to be cruisers and went on. Also, the final ME1 battle shows the Alliance ships using missiles. This is a disconnect between the lore writers and the animators, as the codex makes clear that long range missiles are not a common ship to ship weapon since GARDIAN lasers can destroy them pretty easily. The only missiles that are commonly used are disruptor torpedos, which are usually fired by fighters or frigates from extremely short range where GARDIAN systems have trouble intercepting them.
Point being, it's happened a couple of times where some mistakes were made in causing in-game info to not agree with the codex on some matters. In any case, every bit of literature outside those planet scans referencing the subject says Terra Nova is humanity's most populous colony.
As for Caleston, if you read the Codex, you will see that the world was colonized in 1975. Last I checked, humans didn't have mass relay space flight in 1975. By the time of mass effect, Caleston has been settled for a shade over 200 years. This explains its population.
So give it up, folks. I know some of you want to blow up Earth without wiping out the human race, but it ain't in the cards. If you want to blow up this world that you hate so much, go ahead and do it, and live with the consequences
Kind of like the disconnect between the codex writers and the final cutscene of ME1. In the last scene of ME1, the big Alliance ships are supposed to be dreadnoughts. But that would mean the Alliance had more dreadnoughts than allowed by treaty, so BW pronounced them to be cruisers and went on. Also, the final ME1 battle shows the Alliance ships using missiles. This is a disconnect between the lore writers and the animators, as the codex makes clear that long range missiles are not a common ship to ship weapon since GARDIAN lasers can destroy them pretty easily. The only missiles that are commonly used are disruptor torpedos, which are usually fired by fighters or frigates from extremely short range where GARDIAN systems have trouble intercepting them.
Point being, it's happened a couple of times where some mistakes were made in causing in-game info to not agree with the codex on some matters. In any case, every bit of literature outside those planet scans referencing the subject says Terra Nova is humanity's most populous colony.
As for Caleston, if you read the Codex, you will see that the world was colonized in 1975. Last I checked, humans didn't have mass relay space flight in 1975. By the time of mass effect, Caleston has been settled for a shade over 200 years. This explains its population.
So give it up, folks. I know some of you want to blow up Earth without wiping out the human race, but it ain't in the cards. If you want to blow up this world that you hate so much, go ahead and do it, and live with the consequences
Modifié par jamesp81, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:04 .
#54
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 07:07
jamesp81
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Malanek999 wrote...
I see. "It was the second human extrasolar colony, and the first beyond the Charon Mass Relay. It currently has the highest population of any Alliance colony."
I would be more inclined to view this as a mistake since it is contradicted numerous times and the number is ridiculously low. The one thing that is ambiguois is the description "alliance colony". Can you have human colonies that are not considered "Alliance Colonies"?
The Terminus systems colonies are technically not under the Alliance, I think. I don't know for sure, though. Horizon was one such colony.
#55
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 07:12
jamesp81
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Malanek999 wrote...
As in ridiculously low? Because over 30 years with an extremely high population on earth, relatively cheap starflight, and numerous garden worlds, colonisation numbers would in reallity be much, much higher. Even Cruisers hold several thousand people, so designated transport ships would carry at leat that amount. Say there were over 100 transport ships taking 2 weeks for a round trip, the alliance could have easily transported half a billion colonists over this period. Such low numbers don't make sense, our own pattern of colonies shows this.didymos1120 wrote...
Malanek999 wrote...
I see. "It was the second human extrasolar colony, and the first beyond the Charon Mass Relay. It currently has the highest population of any Alliance colony."
I would be more inclined to view this as a mistake since it is contradicted numerous times and the number is ridiculously low.
How so?
Cruisers have a crew of around 300, not several hundred thousand. The Destiny Ascension, a very large Asari dreadnought, had a crew of around 10,000.
Furthermore, your numbers don't make sense from a practical standpoint. Let say you have the spacelift capacity to move a billion people in one month to a colony. Where are those people going to live? Where are they going to get drinking water? Sanitation systems? Power plants? Roads? Telecommunications infrastructure? That stuff doesn't grow on trees.
You don't start a colony by dumping a million people out the back of a transport ship, waving, and telling them to have fun.
#56
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 07:26
ThanesSniper
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I don't think it's too hard to believe that there are ships specially designed for mass transport of people and resources. Getting people to the planets to colonize isn't a problem, and I'd imagine building shelters there wouldn't be a problem either. Look at the homes on Feros. The buildings would likely be slum-like. Low cost, small, and compact. Also, 30 years ago is at least one generation, so if a couple settles on a colony and starts a family, multiplied by a few thousand to be conservative, then that would also increase the population.
I find it harder to believe that our most populous colony only has 4.4 million people. That's a pretty insignificant presence in the galaxy, and probably not enough to grant us a council seat. My guess is that humans have been given permission to settle pre-colonized worlds by other species, to decrease the amount of resources and time needed to colonize a new planet. So we do have larger colonies, but they're not under Alliance, or even human control.
I find it harder to believe that our most populous colony only has 4.4 million people. That's a pretty insignificant presence in the galaxy, and probably not enough to grant us a council seat. My guess is that humans have been given permission to settle pre-colonized worlds by other species, to decrease the amount of resources and time needed to colonize a new planet. So we do have larger colonies, but they're not under Alliance, or even human control.
#57
Posté 26 juillet 2011 - 09:07
jamesp81
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Mass Transport of people and resources isn't a problem. Building 300 million 3 person family homes to house them IS a problem. Even 200 years into the future.
One generation in space and our largest colony is 4.4 million? With a robust colonization program behind it, that sounds just about right to me.
As for Feros, that was an odd situation. The structures there are the remnants of ancient prothean cities that the colonists have appropriated. Furthermore, I would not expect Feros to ever be a nice place to live. Just look at the planet scan data before you land on it and pay attention to the surface temperature and atmospheric pressure numbers. It is not at all a pleasant place to live, and will likely never have any more residents there than are needed to support ExoGeni's research effort. Feros is a research outpost, nothing more, and not likely to ever be anything more.
One generation in space and our largest colony is 4.4 million? With a robust colonization program behind it, that sounds just about right to me.
As for Feros, that was an odd situation. The structures there are the remnants of ancient prothean cities that the colonists have appropriated. Furthermore, I would not expect Feros to ever be a nice place to live. Just look at the planet scan data before you land on it and pay attention to the surface temperature and atmospheric pressure numbers. It is not at all a pleasant place to live, and will likely never have any more residents there than are needed to support ExoGeni's research effort. Feros is a research outpost, nothing more, and not likely to ever be anything more.
Modifié par jamesp81, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:10 .
#58
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 01:58
knightnblu
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"I'm not sure if those Planet Scans are to be taken as canon, though."
Climbing up on Soapbox...
You know, arcane rules regarding what is canon and what isn't is a reflection of bad writing and poor imagination. I am not saying that this is true of BioWare, unless they begin such a ridiculous system. However the recent release of another game, *cough* Fear 3 *cough,* does violate common sense with what is and what is not canon.
For example, entire expansion packs have been excised from canon in order to continue the main story. If it bears the same brand, was written by essentially the same people, and played by the people who played the previous games (ie., if you didn't have the original game one of the expansions wouldn't play) then it damned well better be canon.
As far as the ME series is concerned, if it is in the game it is canon. Planet scans, codex entries, conversations with Tali's mother's brother's sister's head bucket cleaner, are all fair game. I am sick and tired of pretentious and pompous discussions about what is canon and what is not canon based on an esoteric and arcane rules. We are gamers, not Philadelphia lawyers.
Well...ok, maybe some of us are Philadelphia lawyers, but MOST of us aren't.
Climbing down from Soapbox
edited because I forgot the original quote...
Modifié par knightnblu, 27 juillet 2011 - 02:00 .
#59
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 02:17
Bogsnot1
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knightnblu wrote...
"I'm not sure if those Planet Scans are to be taken as canon, though."
Climbing up on Soapbox...
You know, arcane rules regarding what is canon and what isn't is a reflection of bad writing and poor imagination. I am not saying that this is true of BioWare, unless they begin such a ridiculous system. However the recent release of another game, *cough* Fear 3 *cough,* does violate common sense with what is and what is not canon.
For example, entire expansion packs have been excised from canon in order to continue the main story. If it bears the same brand, was written by essentially the same people, and played by the people who played the previous games (ie., if you didn't have the original game one of the expansions wouldn't play) then it damned well better be canon.
As far as the ME series is concerned, if it is in the game it is canon. Planet scans, codex entries, conversations with Tali's mother's brother's sister's head bucket cleaner, are all fair game. I am sick and tired of pretentious and pompous discussions about what is canon and what is not canon based on an esoteric and arcane rules. We are gamers, not Philadelphia lawyers.
Well...ok, maybe some of us are Philadelphia lawyers, but MOST of us aren't.
Climbing down from Soapbox
edited because I forgot the original quote...
This.
More peolpe have the game, than have the comics and books. Game is canon.
If you dont agree, then answer this. What is Wrex's canon appearance. How he is in game, or that monstrosity that is in the comics?
#60
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 02:22
Malanek
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On earth now we construct well over 10 million homes every year without needing to go through with large scale colonisation. The majority of early housing developed for colonies is of a pre-fab nature. It isn't even all built by humans, it just has to be built and paid for. Over a 30 year period, that number is a complete non-issue, they could build 100 times that number.jamesp81 wrote...
Malanek999 wrote...
As in ridiculously low? Because over 30 years with an extremely high population on earth, relatively cheap starflight, and numerous garden worlds, colonisation numbers would in reallity be much, much higher. Even Cruisers hold several thousand people, so designated transport ships would carry at leat that amount. Say there were over 100 transport ships taking 2 weeks for a round trip, the alliance could have easily transported half a billion colonists over this period. Such low numbers don't make sense, our own pattern of colonies shows this.didymos1120 wrote...
Malanek999 wrote...
I see. "It was the second human extrasolar colony, and the first beyond the Charon Mass Relay. It currently has the highest population of any Alliance colony."
I would be more inclined to view this as a mistake since it is contradicted numerous times and the number is ridiculously low.
How so?
Cruisers have a crew of around 300, not several hundred thousand. The Destiny Ascension, a very large Asari dreadnought, had a crew of around 10,000.
Furthermore, your numbers don't make sense from a practical standpoint. Let say you have the spacelift capacity to move a billion people in one month to a colony. Where are those people going to live? Where are they going to get drinking water? Sanitation systems? Power plants? Roads? Telecommunications infrastructure? That stuff doesn't grow on trees.
You don't start a colony by dumping a million people out the back of a transport ship, waving, and telling them to have fun.
Water is easy since the big colonies are on garden worlds. We assume the biotech is good enough to handle disease. Food is much harder, but still pretty easy. The majority of colonies are on agrarian worlds and can feed themselves.
As for infrastructure you mention like sanitation, coms, power etc... these are actually much easier when you have a sufficient population density because it starts to become cost effective. With small populations this stuff is a serious overhead.
#61
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 03:33
Han Shot First
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VStar wrote...
In ME1, Terra Nova's population is listed as being 4.4 million, and it is described as currently having the highest population of any Alliance colony.
That should be taken as canon IMO, and the entries on planet scans discarded.
By the events of Mass Effect 1 it had only been 33 years since humanity discovered Terra Nova, the largest human colony and the 2nd extrasolar world to be colonized by humans. Considering the short amount of time that humanity has been colonizing the galaxy, colony worlds with populations in the billions or hundreds of millions would be unrealistic. Relatively large colonies like Terra Nova or Elysium should also be the exception. Most human colonies should still be very low in population, like Feros.
The vast majority of humanity should still be on Earth as of Mass Effect 2.
That should change however if there is a Mass Effect IV set, say 500 years after the events of Mass Effect 3. Given enough time there should be more humans living on colony worlds than Earth.
Modifié par Han Shot First, 27 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .
#62
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 01:37
Zulu_DFA
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Unlike the military, civilian spacescraft in the ME universe takes up years to travel to some destinations. The astronomical costs of shipping cargo get multiplied by the costs of life support in the case when human bodies are the cargo. That's why the number of citizens of Human colonies is quite modest, compared even to Illium.
The figures form the ME2 galaxy map cited in the OP are so off for one main reason: ME2 was pushed out of the door before it was properly completed. Dusty Everman practically confirmed that ME2 had been a rush job, saying that such things as the Normandy crew (Ken, Gabby, Gardner and even Chakwas) were a love child of the devs, created in off-duty hours, and even the writing for them was done not by a staff writer, but by a level designer! Some of the "N7" missions were clearly done at the very last moment (when the voice over work was already completed - see "communications data pads"). So it's of a little surprise the planet descriptions in ME2 are quite messed up.
BTW, it would be convenient for me to go on with ME2's disproportionate numbers to pawn the "ZOMG Earth lost = End of Humanity" crowd, but instead I stick with the ME1 Codex and give the most coservative estimates for the totals of the extrasolar human population, in accordance with Chris L'etoile's vision of the ME universe... But that vision also means the Alliance is independent of Earth.
The figures form the ME2 galaxy map cited in the OP are so off for one main reason: ME2 was pushed out of the door before it was properly completed. Dusty Everman practically confirmed that ME2 had been a rush job, saying that such things as the Normandy crew (Ken, Gabby, Gardner and even Chakwas) were a love child of the devs, created in off-duty hours, and even the writing for them was done not by a staff writer, but by a level designer! Some of the "N7" missions were clearly done at the very last moment (when the voice over work was already completed - see "communications data pads"). So it's of a little surprise the planet descriptions in ME2 are quite messed up.
BTW, it would be convenient for me to go on with ME2's disproportionate numbers to pawn the "ZOMG Earth lost = End of Humanity" crowd, but instead I stick with the ME1 Codex and give the most coservative estimates for the totals of the extrasolar human population, in accordance with Chris L'etoile's vision of the ME universe... But that vision also means the Alliance is independent of Earth.
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:39 .
#63
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 01:51
jamesp81
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Bogsnot1 wrote...
knightnblu wrote...
"I'm not sure if those Planet Scans are to be taken as canon, though."
Climbing up on Soapbox...
You know, arcane rules regarding what is canon and what isn't is a reflection of bad writing and poor imagination. I am not saying that this is true of BioWare, unless they begin such a ridiculous system. However the recent release of another game, *cough* Fear 3 *cough,* does violate common sense with what is and what is not canon.
For example, entire expansion packs have been excised from canon in order to continue the main story. If it bears the same brand, was written by essentially the same people, and played by the people who played the previous games (ie., if you didn't have the original game one of the expansions wouldn't play) then it damned well better be canon.
As far as the ME series is concerned, if it is in the game it is canon. Planet scans, codex entries, conversations with Tali's mother's brother's sister's head bucket cleaner, are all fair game. I am sick and tired of pretentious and pompous discussions about what is canon and what is not canon based on an esoteric and arcane rules. We are gamers, not Philadelphia lawyers.
Well...ok, maybe some of us are Philadelphia lawyers, but MOST of us aren't.
Climbing down from Soapbox
edited because I forgot the original quote...
This.
More peolpe have the game, than have the comics and books. Game is canon.
If you dont agree, then answer this. What is Wrex's canon appearance. How he is in game, or that monstrosity that is in the comics?
The books are also canon, as are the comics. As stated by Bioware.
So, what we have is two points of allegedly canon information that are mutually exclusive (Terra Nova having the highest population of a human colony, but in game planet scans contradicting that). So clearly, one of them is a mistake, and is wrong.
The info presented in the comics and novels has been declared canon by Bioware, and every time the subject is directly referenced, Terra Nova is listed as having the highest population of an Alliance world.
So there we have it. The planet scans of Joab and Anhur are wrong. Just assume EDI had a computer virus that day and got the data wrong, and it will all make more sense.
High population Alliance colonies have populations in the low single-digit millions. This is reality on Mass Effect. So, again, if anyone wants to blow up Earth and doom the human race, go ahead, it's your game and your character. Just don't stand there and act like recovering from that is even remotely possible even over the long term, because it isn't.
#64
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 01:52
jamesp81
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Bogsnot1 wrote...
knightnblu wrote...
"I'm not sure if those Planet Scans are to be taken as canon, though."
Climbing up on Soapbox...
You know, arcane rules regarding what is canon and what isn't is a reflection of bad writing and poor imagination. I am not saying that this is true of BioWare, unless they begin such a ridiculous system. However the recent release of another game, *cough* Fear 3 *cough,* does violate common sense with what is and what is not canon.
For example, entire expansion packs have been excised from canon in order to continue the main story. If it bears the same brand, was written by essentially the same people, and played by the people who played the previous games (ie., if you didn't have the original game one of the expansions wouldn't play) then it damned well better be canon.
As far as the ME series is concerned, if it is in the game it is canon. Planet scans, codex entries, conversations with Tali's mother's brother's sister's head bucket cleaner, are all fair game. I am sick and tired of pretentious and pompous discussions about what is canon and what is not canon based on an esoteric and arcane rules. We are gamers, not Philadelphia lawyers.
Well...ok, maybe some of us are Philadelphia lawyers, but MOST of us aren't.
Climbing down from Soapbox
edited because I forgot the original quote...
This.
More peolpe have the game, than have the comics and books. Game is canon.
If you dont agree, then answer this. What is Wrex's canon appearance. How he is in game, or that monstrosity that is in the comics?
The comics take artistic license with their visuals. You are trying to write game lore by referencing artistic styles which makes.....zero sense whatsoever.
#65
Posté 27 juillet 2011 - 02:24
jamesp81
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Malanek999 wrote...
On earth now we construct well over 10 million homes every year without needing to go through with large scale colonisation. The majority of early housing developed for colonies is of a pre-fab nature. It isn't even all built by humans, it just has to be built and paid for. Over a 30 year period, that number is a complete non-issue, they could build 100 times that number.jamesp81 wrote...
Malanek999 wrote...
As in ridiculously low? Because over 30 years with an extremely high population on earth, relatively cheap starflight, and numerous garden worlds, colonisation numbers would in reallity be much, much higher. Even Cruisers hold several thousand people, so designated transport ships would carry at leat that amount. Say there were over 100 transport ships taking 2 weeks for a round trip, the alliance could have easily transported half a billion colonists over this period. Such low numbers don't make sense, our own pattern of colonies shows this.didymos1120 wrote...
Malanek999 wrote...
I see. "It was the second human extrasolar colony, and the first beyond the Charon Mass Relay. It currently has the highest population of any Alliance colony."
I would be more inclined to view this as a mistake since it is contradicted numerous times and the number is ridiculously low.
How so?
Cruisers have a crew of around 300, not several hundred thousand. The Destiny Ascension, a very large Asari dreadnought, had a crew of around 10,000.
Furthermore, your numbers don't make sense from a practical standpoint. Let say you have the spacelift capacity to move a billion people in one month to a colony. Where are those people going to live? Where are they going to get drinking water? Sanitation systems? Power plants? Roads? Telecommunications infrastructure? That stuff doesn't grow on trees.
You don't start a colony by dumping a million people out the back of a transport ship, waving, and telling them to have fun.
Water is easy since the big colonies are on garden worlds. We assume the biotech is good enough to handle disease. Food is much harder, but still pretty easy. The majority of colonies are on agrarian worlds and can feed themselves.
As for infrastructure you mention like sanitation, coms, power etc... these are actually much easier when you have a sufficient population density because it starts to become cost effective. With small populations this stuff is a serious overhead.
Yes, those homes are constructed every year. In industrialized countries with pre-existing infrastructure.
Infrastructure is not built nearly so easily as you believe it to be.
Consider that North America had a European colonial presence for over 150 years before the American Revolution. And when the American Revolution started, even after having settlements 150 years old, the American colonies were basically low end third world countries compared to the British. The colonies were a distant, pathetic shade of the sophistication of Great Britain, and that was after 150 years of settlement.
Now we're talking about colonizing worlds many light years distant from home. Industrialization helps here, as a lot of stuff can be pre-fabbed, sure, but you simply cannot dump people en masse on a new colony. The infrastructure won't support it.
A 30 year old colony with a population of 4 to 5 million probably is just about right. I don't think you could grow the population any faster without straining infrastructure or driving people into living under even lower standards of living than first wave colonists probably already do.
#66
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 06:19
Han Shot First
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High population Alliance colonies have populations in the low single-digit millions. This is reality on Mass Effect. So, again, if anyone wants to blow up Earth and doom the human race, go ahead, it's your game and your character. Just don't stand there and act like recovering from that is even remotely possible even over the long term, because it isn't.
I agree.
If Earth is destroyed or rendered uninhabitable it should be catastrophic for all of humanity. With only 30+ years of colonization the overwhelming majority of people born on Earth would be living there. Additionally most colonies would probably still be very small with populations in the hundreds or thousands. Colony worlds like Terra Nova or Elysium would be the exception, and all of the colonies would still be economically dependant on Earth. With Earth destroyed the Alliance economy would collapse. Most of the colonies would also not be entirely self-sufficient. Short of some alien species stepping in to rescue the colonies, many would probably die off without trade and resupply from Earth.
#67
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 08:23
Backup Magus
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It's actually not *entirely* unfeasible for the human race to recover from a population of a few million survivors, but it would take a loooooooong time. Centuries, at the least. And since most colonies are dependent on protection from the alliance and economic assistance from the home world, you'd see most of these places turning to alien governments for support -- likely whichever is closest to any given colony, which sure would suck for those systems we muscled the Batarians out of.
#68
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 03:45
Han Shot First
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Backup Magus wrote...
It's actually not *entirely* unfeasible for the human race to recover from a population of a few million survivors, but it would take a loooooooong time. Centuries, at the least. And since most colonies are dependent on protection from the alliance and economic assistance from the home world, you'd see most of these places turning to alien governments for support -- likely whichever is closest to any given colony, which sure would suck for those systems we muscled the Batarians out of.
Exactly.
If Earth is destroyed humanity will be the next Volus. They'd have to turn to another species for protection, unless those species were hammered just as severely.
#69
Posté 29 juillet 2011 - 06:57
jamesp81
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Backup Magus wrote...
It's actually not *entirely* unfeasible for the human race to recover from a population of a few million survivors, but it would take a loooooooong time. Centuries, at the least. And since most colonies are dependent on protection from the alliance and economic assistance from the home world, you'd see most of these places turning to alien governments for support -- likely whichever is closest to any given colony, which sure would suck for those systems we muscled the Batarians out of.
It would take centuries to recover assuming humans were left alone to do it. That won't happen.
The rogue states of the terminus systems will conquer remaining colonies in short order. The Council will, of course, regret that it cannot become involved in a purely human matter as it normally does.
