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[Krazy Solo]

Basically what the title indicates.  What are the weaker classes in BG series?

Lets keep this topic clean from arguments and respect individual opinions.

=edit=

To get it started, I nominate Cleric basic kit.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:27 .

[Seagloom]

In the first Baldur's Gate? I think that honor belongs to the druid. Clerics get all the best priest spells. The only thing druid really has to set it apart is call lightning. Its shapeshift forms are weak. Its expanded equipment selection is pointless due to being limited by one attack per round. Darts are the only decent weapon a druid has that might make a cleric jealous. Druids are also limited to mediocre armor. I once finished vanilla BG1 as a druid and found it very tedious after awhile. Totally the opposite of bard, which seems weak at a glance, but can be deceptively powerful.

This is harder to decide in BG2.

Probably wizard slayer for its severe item restrictions. Since I have yet to invest too much time playing the kit, that is based on conjecture and various posts I read on the old BG2 forums.

Modifié par Seagloom, 26 juillet 2011 - 11:33 .

[Cowboy_christo]

Do you mean the weakest class while soloing? or in a group?

Solo id say wiz slayer since they cant use jack**** to avoid most of the deadly stuff.

Groupwise id go with the beastmaster, aside from fodder summon hes a ****ty fighter with the gayiest equipment restriction bar wizard slayer.

Modifié par Cowboy_christo, 26 juillet 2011 - 11:17 .

[Krazy Solo]

Either or is accepted Christo... Considering how each class performs differently under certain environments.

Another class kit that comes to mind is the standard paladin kit. Cannot speak for BG1, but its a poor choice compare to the three kits.

[amanasleep]

Druids are good in BG1 if you kill Drizzt. And the Shapeshift forms are actually quite good. Bears get extra attacks and the wolf is fast in a game when running away is good. Prior to level 4 they are quite fragile, but you can go far by abusing Doom, Charm Person or Mammal, and Entangle.

[devSin]

Everybody can a play a class effectively. Certainly, many people can wreak havoc with clerics (and the BG2 kits for it really do nothing).

I'd nominate rangers. They can be good, but I think they don't have much place in the game (the stealth isn't useful, because if you're going to get into melee, you'd want heavier armor, and if you're going to be ranged, you don't really need it). They can only get two stars in weapons, and their spell selection isn't large enough to really be a balancing factor.

Followed by bard (people like them, but I never use them in BG series) and then pure-class druid. The druid has some good spells, but the price (giving up all those cleric-only spells) is too high IMO.

Probably, most of the "specialty" sub-classes (paladin, ranger, druid, and bard) are going to have arguments for why they're the weakest. I think it'll pretty hard to argue against the fundamental classes (fighter, wizard, and cleric), though.

[Seagloom]

amanasleep wrote...

Druids are good in BG1 if you kill Drizzt. And the Shapeshift forms are actually quite good. Bears get extra attacks and the wolf is fast in a game when running away is good. Prior to level 4 they are quite fragile, but you can go far by abusing Doom, Charm Person or Mammal, and Entangle.

I can agree on the wolf. Except if my character needs to run it is only because something has gone terribly wrong and the entire party is dead or dying. So in my opinion that is not much of a perk. Bear form is horrible in my experience. Their defense is too weak for the front line past the early game.

Keep in mind I was referring to druids in vanilla Baldur's Gate. That means no doom or any other handy spells they get in BG2. I found my BG1 druid more useful as a healer. When I needed offense she threw poison darts. That was admittedly useful, but waned in effectiveness as the game progressed.

Druids are significantly improved in BG2. Not IWD good, but easily surpassing their BG1 counterparts. Avengers in particular are nice with lightning bolt, chain lightning, chromatic orb, and spider shape.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[AnonymousHero]

(Assuming vanilla BG2/ToB.)

devSin wrote...

Everybody can a play a class effectively. Certainly, many people can wreak havoc with clerics (and the BG2 kits for it really do nothing).

The PoL adds +1 attack for $level rounds. That's a huge deal. (You can also stack it, but I reckon that's probably an oversight since it means they can be better fighters than... fighters what with 25 STR, Fighter THAC0, maximum damage, etc.)

devSin wrote...
They can only get two stars in weapons, and their spell selection isn't large enough to really be a balancing factor.

In vanilla (BG2/ToB where it matters most), anything over specialization is pretty pointless.

devSin wrote...

Followed by bard (people like them, but I never use them in BG series) and then pure-class druid. The druid has some good spells, but the price (giving up all those cleric-only spells) is too high IMO.

Pureclass Bard is pretty restricted, but L1-L6 arcane spells is a huge deal -- it includes all the truly essential spells like Spell Immunity, Stoneskin, Spirit Armor, Mirror Image and Spell Deflection (in lieu of Spell Turning/Trap).

Anyway...

The correct answer (if there even is such a thing) also depends heavily on how you're playing. No-reload? Solo/group?

In my type of play, solo no-reload, the Wizard Slayer would probably be the worst. They basically get no protections from any number of spells which can kill them easily... and don't get any way to avoid those fights either. AFAIK, they are the only class which cannot use the Greenstone Amulet nor the Amulet of Missiles. IMO, they'd basically have to either 1) get extremely lucky, or 2) exploit engine quirks to be able to complete a solo no-reload.

[amanasleep]

Seagloom wrote...
I can agree on the wolf. Except if my character needs to run it is only because something has gone terribly wrong and the entire party is dead or dying. So in my opinion that is not much of a perk. Bear form is horrible in my experience. Their defense is too weak for the front line past the early game.

Try using a potion of Defense or Stone Form on the Bear.  You really only use the bear for attacks and strength.  The wolf is very useful in surviving levels 1-4.

[polytope]

Regarding pure class rangers and paladins; whilst not as good as the range of kits (BG2 only) they're no worse than pure class fighters in either (unmodded) game because you cannot get 5 stars in a weapon in BG1 and it's arguably a waste of time to go beyond 2 stars in BG2. The paladin save bonuses, lay on hands etc. and the ranger's few useful spells like AoF and Summon Insects probably make up for the slower level gain.

Regarding the mage classes (well, they were actual classes in the first game, became "kits" in the second) enchanter or transmuter are both contenders for weakest.

Enchanters lose MM, SC, Web, Fire Shield, Minor Sequencer, Cloudkill, Sunfire, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Mordy Sword, Spell Sequencer, Incendiary Cloud, Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency - all quite useful. Still, they are not as crippled as pnp AD&D enchanters, who also lose necromancy, which would leave them without any damage dealing spells except Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow and Prismatic Spray.

Transmuters lose most protective spells - except polymorph self and stoneskin - and most means of debuffing enemies. Enough said, really.

AnonymousHero wrote...

In my type of play, solo no-reload, the Wizard Slayer would probably be the worst. They basically get no protections from any number of spells which can kill them easily... and don't get any way to avoid those fights either. AFAIK, they are the only class which cannot use the Greenstone Amulet nor the Amulet of Missiles. IMO, they'd basically have to either 1) get extremely lucky, or 2) exploit engine quirks to be able to complete a solo no-reload.

Yes, it would be very difficult to solo one. Equipped items can still grant most of the needed immunities; Arbane's sword confers an undocumented immunity to stun (unmodded game only) - add Shield of Harmony/Equalizer and that's most of the disabling effects. Saving throws are not too bad if you choose gnome or dwarf and wear Delver's plate + Helm of Balduran (will have save vs spells of zero by 13th level). They can also use green protection scrolls.

Modifié par polytope, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[Grond0]

Like with so many other questions it all depends on what type of game you play and your own playing style. For instance I now play mainly solo no-reload and in that form stealth ability is hugely beneficial - classes like ranger and monk can use stealth to defeat almost all enemies with a bit of patience, quite apart from being able to by-pass them.

I certainly agree that wizard slayer is a difficult character to try and take through BG1 solo because of their vulnerability to magic, although this can be mitigated somewhat if you have the tweak allowing their ranged attacks to affect spell-users. However, I think there's a decent argument that kensai is even worse because of their poor armour class. You could also make an argument for wild mages as the worst in a no-reload context, although their ability to use wands means they don't really need to use their own spells much anyway.

[AnonymousHero]

Grond0 wrote...
I certainly agree that wizard slayer is a difficult character to try and take through BG1 solo because of their vulnerability to magic, although this can be mitigated somewhat if you have the tweak allowing their ranged attacks to affect spell-users. However, I think there's a decent argument that kensai is even worse because of their poor armour class. You could also make an argument for wild mages as the worst in a no-reload context, although their ability to use wands means they don't really need to use their own spells much anyway.

(Just because I'm feeling argumentative... don't take this too seriously  )

Kensai are completely trivial to get through BG1 compared to Wizard Slayer. There are more than enough Potions of Invisibility (and later the Ring of Invisibility) to sealth through the "impossible" things. There are also lots of Potions of Defence and Potions of Invulnerability (not to mention Potions of X Strength for +THAC0 and +DMG). They also get the Amulet of Shielding and the Amulet of Missiles and they can use the various girdles of +3 AC vs. damage type X. In my mind it's really no contest.

Agreed on the Wild Mage, though. It's a real contender since CHARNAME could be obliterated by a random wild surge -- especially at low levels.

EDIT: The real deciding factor in BG1 is access to potions -- there are potions to counter every effect in BG1. If you want a slightly easier time, you can use the Greenstone Amulet and Ring of Free Action. None of which WS get access to. (Well, they could theoretically get a sword with FA, but even getting that far would be an accomplishment.)

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:56 .

[AnonymousHero]

polytope wrote...

AnonymousHero wrote...
In my type of play, solo no-reload, the Wizard Slayer would probably be the worst. They basically get no protections from any number of spells which can kill them easily... and don't get any way to avoid those fights either. AFAIK, they are the only class which cannot use the Greenstone Amulet nor the Amulet of Missiles. IMO, they'd basically have to either 1) get extremely lucky, or 2) exploit engine quirks to be able to complete a solo no-reload.

Yes, it would be very difficult to solo one. Equipped items can still grant most of the needed immunities; Arbane's sword confers an undocumented immunity to stun (unmodded game only) - add Shield of Harmony/Equalizer and that's most of the disabling effects. Saving throws are not too bad if you choose gnome or dwarf and wear Delver's plate + Helm of Balduran (will have save vs spells of zero by 13th level). They can also use green protection scrolls.

I should have specified (context strikes again!) that I was thinking about full trilogy no-reload.

Btw, Dwarfes get better saves across the board (Gnomes do not), so Dwarf should definitely be preferred for a pure WS.

Sort-of-offtopic to vanilla: I seem to recall someone soloing (not no-reload by any means) through BG2 to ToB/Ascension, but there are classes no-one has succesfully soloed through Ascension. Beastmaster was one class, IIRC... and Transmuter was the other.

[Krazy Solo]

Interesting so basically a Beastmaster Ranger has been classified as hard to finish with? Call me baffled but how come the BMaster so weak yet they can wear all armor types. They are restricted to limited melee weapons, but has full acess to all range weapons?

Maybe Bmaster is not a powergaming class, like the stalker and wizardslayer.

[Grond0]

AnonymousHero wrote...
(Just because I'm feeling argumentative... don't take this too seriously  )

Kensai are completely trivial to get through BG1 compared to Wizard Slayer. There are more than enough Potions of Invisibility (and later the Ring of Invisibility) to sealth through the "impossible" things. There are also lots of Potions of Defence and Potions of Invulnerability (not to mention Potions of X Strength for +THAC0 and +DMG). They also get the Amulet of Shielding and the Amulet of Missiles and they can use the various girdles of +3 AC vs. damage type X. In my mind it's really no contest.

EDIT: The real deciding factor in BG1 is access to potions -- there are potions to counter every effect in BG1. If you want a slightly easier time, you can use the Greenstone Amulet and Ring of Free Action. None of which WS get access to. (Well, they could theoretically get a sword with FA, but even getting that far would be an accomplishment.)

It's an interesting argument, but I do think it again comes down to context.  There are actually very few potions of invulnerability in an unmodded game (I can only think of 2 outside Baldur's Gate) and potions of defense are not plentiful either.  That means that it is clearly not possible to rely on these as a general gaming strategy.  Therefore, while I would agree that the kensai is easier if you plot a careful meta-gaming progress through BG1, it is significantly more difficult to get going if you're using more of a RP style and stays vulnerable to being wiped out by (un)lucky criticals throughout the game.  How many new kensais have died to bandit ambushes while trying to get to the Friendly Arm Inn I wonder?

I also agree with you about the usefulness of potions in general.  However, the wizard slayer can make use of green scrolls, so is not left totally helpless without potions.

[Krazy Solo]

Not to be counterproductive Grond0, but with one of the patches WizardSlayer was given the ability to use healing potions. At least in my Unmodded game they can use potions. It was an oversite the developers remedy apparently unnotice?

Either way the Wslayer has more restriction than bonuses in terms of power gaming as alot of players have grown attached to using belts of str and other goodies that magical items provided. Without such items the players are simply weakened by their own dependency. So theoritically the WizardSlayer is a power class for a player who doesn't meta game.

Only reason I ask this question is the leisure I have playing gimped characters.  For example I had fun playing Druid Shapeshifter.  Imagine having -20 ac prior to ToB  Shapeshifter can do it near naked, unlike other classes.  Being able to cast spells when you want to is also a boon.

The more I play this game it seems the weaker classes are the more fun and interesting classes.

For Example I disliked the Kensage(Kensai==Mage).  I found it boring.  I guess I love the thrill of doing something inspiring with uninspiring class.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:30 .

[Grond0]

Yes - when I was referring to not being able to use potions that was in response to AnonymousHero's comment about the usefulness of potions to protect against all effects.  Wizard slayers can use healing potions (including antidotes).  They can also use boots, which can be pretty useful, though (rather oddly I think) they are not able to make use of gauntlets / bracers.
I don't think I'd go as far as saying they are a power class for anyone.  They can perform a very useful role in a party, but I think they are a weak class if being played solo no matter how they are played - I was just making the point that kensais may be even weaker depending on how you play the game.

[Krazy Solo]

Precisely, Weak is subjected to elements of the environment it is being compared in. I really see beastmaster being stronger solo class if you can make use of the fact it isn't restricted from using ranged weapons like a Druid or other kits.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

amanasleep wrote...
Try using a potion of Defense or Stone Form on the Bear.  You really only use the bear for attacks and strength.  The wolf is very useful in surviving levels 1-4.

Druids get Shapeshift at level 1 in your game?

polytope wrote...
the ranger's few useful spells like AoF and Summon Insects

Summon Insects is a level 3 spell in your game?

[amanasleep]

[quote]Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

[quote]amanasleep wrote...
Try using a potion of Defense or Stone Form on the Bear.  You really only use the bear for attacks and strength.  The wolf is very useful in surviving levels 1-4.[/quote]
Druids get Shapeshift at level 1 in your game?[/quote]

I realized later I was remembering using the cloak in an old game.

[quote][quote]polytope wrote...
the ranger's few useful spells like AoF and Summon Insects[/quote]
Summon Insects is a level 3 spell in your game?
[/quote][/quote]

In everybody's.

Modifié par amanasleep, 30 juillet 2011 - 04:56 .

[Krazy Solo]

H_T you might have been thinking of Insect Swarm which is a higher spell level. Summon Insect is spell level 3 along with call lighting.

[morbidest2]

Yeah, druids get to Summon insects with 3rd, 5th and 7th level spells, which has always struck me as being the only good reason for being a druid,

[amanasleep]

Plenty of good reasons for being a Druid. Admittedly they don't kick in until the higher levels, but Druids level fast until level 13.

[polytope]

Krazy Solo wrote...

H_T you might have been thinking of Insect Swarm which is a higher spell level. Summon Insect is spell level 3 along with call lighting.

I was reluctant to list CL as a "useful" spell for rangers as they can't get it in BG1 and few noteworthy fights in BG2 happen outdoors - except a certain dragon in late SoA and a few ToB maps.

morbidest2 wrote...

Yeah, druids get to Summon insects with 3rd, 5th and 7th level spells, which has always struck me as being the only good reason for being a druid

It's a bit silly that druids have the monopoly on insect spells, since the 5th level Insect Plague is so much better (almost broken in fact, in an unmodded game) than the 3rd level version that I'm sure no-one bothers to cast the latter once they hit lvl 9, so it's redundant. Insect Plague is actually a cleric spell - rather than druid - in 2ed (combat sphere). It sounds quite Biblical.

AnonymousHero wrote...

I should have specified (context strikes again!) that I was thinking about full trilogy no-reload.

Btw, Dwarfes get better saves across the board (Gnomes do not), so Dwarf should definitely be preferred for a pure WS.

Sort-of-offtopic to vanilla: I seem to recall someone soloing (not no-reload by any means) through BG2 to ToB/Ascension, but there are classes no-one has succesfully soloed through Ascension. Beastmaster was one class, IIRC... and Transmuter was the other.

I find that none of the BG2 kits are really balanced for BG1 trilogy or Tutu - the totemic druid is the most frequently cited, but most of them are either too strong (berzerkers for instance) or too weak (monk, kensai etc.). Even a beastmaster - hardly a powergaming choice - is a bit better than a ranger at low levels simply because of the stealth bonus and the familiar's extra hp.

Alesia_BH, I believe, did solo Ascension with a Transmuter. AFAIK nobody has done it with a Beastmaster.

[Krazy Solo]

So Beastmaster, Totemic Druid and few others are low on the pecking order power wise? Might not beable to do a Solo playthrough as Beastmaster but I be crazy enough to play through the game unmodded as one.