60 réponses à ce sujet

[tangalin]

Seagloom wrote...

In the first Baldur's Gate? I think that honor belongs to the druid. Clerics get all the best priest spells. The only thing druid really has to set it apart is call lightning. Its shapeshift forms are weak. Its expanded equipment selection is pointless due to being limited by one attack per round. Darts are the only decent weapon a druid has that might make a cleric jealous. Druids are also limited to mediocre armor. I once finished vanilla BG1 as a druid and found it very tedious after awhile. Totally the opposite of bard, which seems weak at a glance, but can be deceptively powerful.

This is harder to decide in BG2.

Probably wizard slayer for its severe item restrictions. Since I have yet to invest too much time playing the kit, that is based on conjecture and various posts I read on the old BG2 forums.

I've beat BG2 with a wizard slayer. They end up being pretty godly later on due to being specifically crafted to kill most of the hard enemies (ie. anything with magical abilities).

[Chaotic Clown]

In Baldur's Gate (vanilla) I found Druid's to be little more than a watered down Cleric, for spells and equipment.   So I always passed on recruiting a pure Druid.

My one minor regret in relation to my current playthrough is that I did not recruit a Bard.   They are a class I always considered weak due to my experience with a low level Garrick on my first ever playthrough.   Reading the tale of the tape on Bards made them sound really cool - the Bard learns a little bit about everything that crosses his path: a jack-of-all trades but master of none.   Pick Pockets (of the rich and arrogant).   Spell Casting (if only a few - so make them count).   High Lore Ability (save insane amounts of gold and identify while adventuring).   Equip either a bow or a crossbow (which a mage cannot do without dual-classing).   Equip a two handed sword (which a mage cannot do without dual-classing).   Level up quickly, while gaining 6 hit-points per level.   Out of spells - well equip some armor and pitch in on the front lines (with a little smarts of where and when).   That all appeals to me.

But I got Garrick who not only had the appearance of a fairy, but the glass chin to match.   I clearly played him wrong and did not equate in his low level in relation to his usefulness.

Garrick and Eldoth appear to be it for Bards in BG1, though.   There is no Neutral Good Bard!   Eldoth (Neutral Evil) has a pitiful 10 wisdom and a mediocre 12 dexterity.   Garrick (Chaotic Neutral) has a meagre 9 constitution.   And both suffer a mere 13 intelligence.   They would be little more than background music by the camp fire!   So I think I may have to pass once more.   Perhaps I will create a Bard one day.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

In BG2 there is a highly useful bard, Haer'Dalis. If you use him correctly, he will easily be more powerful than Korgan or Minsc.

[Son of Imoen]

But then of course, Haer'Dalis isn't just a Bard, he has the Blade kit and a Blade surely is not one of the weaker classes, it's one of the strongest. I played a Blade PC in BG Tutu, a more bodily and mentally fit character than Garrick or Eldoth. And besides the spells he had a nice list of special abilities, the offensive and defensive spins, the buffing weapon display and the heals etc. the PC gets during the game. He 'kicked ass', so to speak. And he surely will make Irenicus's life miserable, I'm confident. A Blade PC in SOA is even more versatily than Haer'Dalis.

[Son of Imoen]

But now I'm posting in this topic, I should cast my vote to what the weakest class is. I'll put my vote on the unkitted Druid as well. And for the BG1 part of the game, a Kensai sounds awfully gimped.

Modifié par Son of Imoen, 10 août 2011 - 08:26 .

[AnonymousHero]

Son of Imoen wrote...

But now I'm posting in this topic, I should cast my vote to what the weakest class is. I'll put my vote on the unkitted Druid as well. And for the BG1 part of the game, a Kensai sounds awfully gimped.

(I always assume solo, no-reload. If you're not solo the question doesn't really make muc sense IMO.)

Regarding the Kensai: the lack of ranged weapons is a bit of an annoyance, but the ability to use potions and magical items (Ring of Free Action, Greenstone Amulet, Shield Amulet, Amulet of MIssiles) means that a Kensai character can make up for all its other weaknesses.

In the current no-reload thread, I think Grond0 has shown (empirically) that Wizardslayer is far more difficult to get through BG1. (Again, solo no-reload.)

[Son of Imoen]

Sorry, I can't judge about solo nor reload. I only play relaod-campaigns with a party.

[Grond0]

AnonymousHero wrote...
In the current no-reload thread, I think Grond0 has shown (empirically) that Wizardslayer is far more difficult to get through BG1. (Again, solo no-reload.)

Finally achieved it.  After all the practice I managed to find pretty good strategies, but I have to agree with you that wizard slayer is significantly harder to do a solo no-reload with than any of the other characters I've played.

[The Fred]

A vanilla BG1 pure Druid sucks before L4. Even afterwards, in vanilla Clerics get most spells a Druid gets, so a Druid only really has a slightly different weapon selection (daggers, darts, scimitars) going for it. I use a mod of my own making to take Druid spells like Entangle away from Clerics - this doesn't make the Druids any tougher, but it means that having one in a party with a Cleric is a viable option.

I always used to think of Bards as watered-down mages, but with decent stats a Bard can be pretty cool. They can use any weapon, IIRC, and their spells track more or less along with a dual-classed mage making them something of a Mage/(Fighter/Thief), if that makes sense.

[amanasleep]

Druids in bg1 are quite good in vanilla. They get l5 spells long before the cap, giving several castings of insect plague or iron skins. In addition they get shapechanges at level 7, which are excellent when buffed with the right potions. The weapon selection should not be underestimated since Dagger of venom and darts are very powerful in bg1, not to mention Frostbrand.

[polytope]

amanasleep wrote...

Druids in bg1 are quite good in vanilla. They get l5 spells long before the cap, giving several castings of insect plague or iron skins. In addition they get shapechanges at level 7, which are excellent when buffed with the right potions. The weapon selection should not be underestimated since Dagger of venom and darts are very powerful in bg1, not to mention Frostbrand.

Unfortunately, in vanilla BG1 there are no Iron Skin or Insect Plague spells, the only spells druid's get for circle 5 are Animal Summoning II (...yay!) and Cure Critical Wounds.

I find the cleric weapon selection to be superior to that of the druid, with the exception of darts of stunning/wounding - although powerful you still need to make an attack roll with poor druid thaco (and basically unmodified except by dexterity, considering they can't equip the bracer's of archery).

[amanasleep]

polytope wrote...

amanasleep wrote...

Druids in bg1 are quite good in vanilla. They get l5 spells long before the cap, giving several castings of insect plague or iron skins. In addition they get shapechanges at level 7, which are excellent when buffed with the right potions. The weapon selection should not be underestimated since Dagger of venom and darts are very powerful in bg1, not to mention Frostbrand.

Unfortunately, in vanilla BG1 there are no Iron Skin or Insect Plague spells, the only spells druid's get for circle 5 are Animal Summoning II (...yay!) and Cure Critical Wounds.

I find the cleric weapon selection to be superior to that of the druid, with the exception of darts of stunning/wounding - although powerful you still need to make an attack roll with poor druid thaco (and basically unmodified except by dexterity, considering they can't equip the bracer's of archery).

Sorry, you're right.  I've come to think of some aspects of tutu as vanilla!

Druid can get base Thac0 14, 11 with 19 dex, +1 for Bless is 10.  Doesn't seem too terrible.

Don't Druids get Chaotic Commands in BG1?

[Krazy Solo]

Well I believe in BG1 anything that wasn't a melee guru was fairly weak.  BG2 open the door for some of the classes to shine, but one that sticks out to me that seem weak was the Jester Bard Kit.

Sure Confusion is nice but the +4 save makes it hard to work am I right?  Far as I know it doesn't even improve at all later in the game.  Making it quite useless in later part of BG2.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 15 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[polytope]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Well I believe in BG1 anything that wasn't a melee guru was fairly weak.  BG2 open the door for some of the classes to shine, but one that sticks out to me that seem weak was the Jester Bard Kit.

Sure Confusion is nice but the +4 save makes it hard to work am I right?  Far as I know it doesn't even improve at all later in the game.  Making it quite useless in later part of BG2.

The Jester kit description is in error - the confusion allows a save at +2, not +4, at level 15 it will also cause slow (unmodified save), at level 20 it causes sleep (save at +2). I still don't think it's a great kit, a Skald's buffing abilities (especially in a party) or a Blade's combat bonuses (especially solo) are more valuable than a save-or-else effect.

The abilities of some other kits are incorrectly described as well, the Wizard Slayer for instance causes 25% cumulative casting failure on hit, not 10% as described in the original game - meaning that a mage's spellcasting can be disabled long before you clear their stoneskins and mirror images.

[Krazy Solo]

Well it is good to know that Jester not as bad as I initially thought. Though sleep effect isn't as useful as slow effect is though. I had a feeling the WSlayer was better than advertise as the restrictions didn't seem right.

[amanasleep]

The thing about a Bard songs is that they do not break invisibility. For a Jester, this means you can go invisible, sing, and wait for all of your enemies to fail the save. If you want to speed up the process you can cast Greater Malison, then go invisible and sing. In BG1 enemies will eventually melee each other to death. It's trickier in BG2, but still pretty effective. Once enemies get slowed then it's better to attack them.

[jaxsbudgie]

Rogue Rebalancing addresses some of the problems with the Jester kit. Did a partial run through as a Jester a while back, remember it being fun and just the right amount of challenge.

[Krazy Solo]

i'm not a mod person never was... I prefer original designs even if they are underwhelming.

[The Fred]

I am more of a mod person but having tried a lot, I end up removing many of them again later. However, I do have a bunch which I like. I think once you've played vanilla a couple of times, modding can really help keep things fresh, but in the long run I cut most of them back out again because they're unbalanced or just buggy.

[polytope]

amanasleep wrote...

The thing about a Bard songs is that they do not break invisibility. For a Jester, this means you can go invisible, sing, and wait for all of your enemies to fail the save. If you want to speed up the process you can cast Greater Malison, then go invisible and sing. In BG1 enemies will eventually melee each other to death. It's trickier in BG2, but still pretty effective. Once enemies get slowed then it's better to attack them.

Since casting Confusion breaks invisibility, so should singing a "confusing song" - this tactic is as much an exploit as Sanctuary + Blade Barrier. Although less useful, since you don't get experience for confused enemies killing each other.

Modifié par polytope, 18 août 2011 - 01:06 .

[amanasleep]

polytope wrote...

amanasleep wrote...

The thing about a Bard songs is that they do not break invisibility. For a Jester, this means you can go invisible, sing, and wait for all of your enemies to fail the save. If you want to speed up the process you can cast Greater Malison, then go invisible and sing. In BG1 enemies will eventually melee each other to death. It's trickier in BG2, but still pretty effective. Once enemies get slowed then it's better to attack them.

Since casting Confusion breaks invisibility, so should singing a "confusing song" - this tactic is as much an exploit as Sanctuary + Blade Barrier. Although less useful, since you don't get experience for confused enemies killing each other.

Since Bard song's are specifically not magical, I don't really think of this as an exploit.  Certainly not on the level of Sanctuary + Blade Barrier or even letting Mislead decoys sing.  Enemies not reacting to getting hit be flying death knives is obviously an exploit--enemies hearing a mysterious disembodied song and being slowly driven mad sounds like it's right in line for a fantasy setting.

[Son of Imoen]

There's a component in aTweaks to let Bard song break invisibility. I always use it, just because it seems plausible you could locate the singing Bard by the sound he makes.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Maybe it's a ninja bard?



Edit: I don't know how to imbed links into text any more. Frustrating.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 18 août 2011 - 06:26 .

[amanasleep]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Maybe it's a ninja bard?



Edit: I don't know how to imbed links into text any more. Frustrating.

Like this.

Modifié par amanasleep, 18 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[polytope]

amanasleep wrote...

Since Bard song's are specifically not magical, I don't really think of this as an exploit.

They may not be magical, but still require attracting attention to your bard. Even talking to another character or casting something with a single verbal component (PW spells etc.) ends the invisibility state. The Jester's kit description says that he distracts enemies by leaping and cavorting madly in combat - how can he do that while invisible?

amanasleep wrote... enemies hearing a mysterious disembodied song and being slowly driven mad sounds like it's right in line for a fantasy setting.

Yeah, but the ones who saved against the song should have at least a chance to work out where it's coming from.