Absolutely, you can. But I get the impression that players are more likely to just go through with the whole mission after the conversation with Hackett simply because it's been triggered.
Mass Effect 3: A Dissertation
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FERMi27
, juil. 26 2011 08:07
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#152
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 12:05
Ieldra
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Read the Cerberus section.
While I think that Cerberus retaining close ties to the Alliance is a distinct possibility, the author connects too many threads to that link without convincing evidence.
(1) We have no evidence for ExoGeni being infiltrated by Cerberus
(2) The connection between Elanos Haliat and Cerberus is extremely far-fetched.
(3) There is no evidence to connect Lord Darius to Cerberus.
And so on, and so on. Again a conspiracy theory, this time with a plausible foundation but way too many connected threads. To make a hypothesis convincing, there must be evidence that it actually happened that way. It's not enough to say that it's possible, or to say that "What if Hackett did this in order to achieve X instead of what he told us". Without some evidence that Hackett actually had intention X the hypothesis has no value.
Sometimes, things that appear unconnected are just that.
One question though:
And "rogue" is spelled "rogue". "Rouge" is for make-up.
While I think that Cerberus retaining close ties to the Alliance is a distinct possibility, the author connects too many threads to that link without convincing evidence.
(1) We have no evidence for ExoGeni being infiltrated by Cerberus
(2) The connection between Elanos Haliat and Cerberus is extremely far-fetched.
(3) There is no evidence to connect Lord Darius to Cerberus.
And so on, and so on. Again a conspiracy theory, this time with a plausible foundation but way too many connected threads. To make a hypothesis convincing, there must be evidence that it actually happened that way. It's not enough to say that it's possible, or to say that "What if Hackett did this in order to achieve X instead of what he told us". Without some evidence that Hackett actually had intention X the hypothesis has no value.
Sometimes, things that appear unconnected are just that.
One question though:
Does he actually say that? I don't recall it - neither from the game nor from the books.What’s more, and perhaps even more striking, the expedition on the Derelict Reaper was supposedly being led by an Alliance research team (the Illusive Man says as much).
And "rogue" is spelled "rogue". "Rouge" is for make-up.
#153
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 12:07
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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The Alliance team merely discovered that the Great Rift on Klendagon was not a natural formation. There is no indication that the Alliance ever bothered to find out where the shot was aimed or where it came from.
#154
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 02:14
AVPen
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^This - I never quite understood the whole notion that playing Arrival before the SM dimished the entire purpose of ME2 story, nor did I believe that the Human-Reaper's purpose was ever to replace Soveriegn or reopen the Citadel. The author brings up a lot of good points about Arrival and the Collectors which I thought previously, plus some new ones that I had not considered (like the Collector threat being a bit of a red herring to draw attention away from the Reapers plan to use the Alpha Relay).Saphra Deden wrote...
Well you can always tell Hackett that you have other things to do... even if there is an imminent Reaper invasion coming.
Personally I think it might have been better if Arrival only trigger after the Suicide Mission, but I don't mind it before. It actually kind of enhances the Collectors as a threat because it makes it apparent that the Alliance isn't capable of dealing with them.
Modifié par AVPen, 28 juillet 2011 - 04:55 .
#155
Posté 28 juillet 2011 - 02:21
Apple_NdiB
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Great read, in fact I'd go as far as to say people should avoid reading it if they're worried about spoilers since some of it seems so plausible.
#156
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 05:09
bboynexus
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I have updated the fifth and sixth posts with Section 5. It went over the character limit so I was forced to include the last of it in the sixth post. Enjoy!
#157
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 04:32
bboynexus
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Bumping this in case people haven't seen yet.
#158
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 04:33
Fata Morgana
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Hurrah, I've been waiting for the next installments! going to read now.
#159
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 04:53
wilhelm Screamer
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I loved the comparisons between Breen and TIM.
#160
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 05:42
Fata Morgana
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wilhelm Screamer wrote...
I loved the comparisons between Breen and TIM.
Yeah, I liked that too.
Great read, as usual. Can't wait for the next installment.
#161
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 06:05
BrotherCorvid
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I haven't played HL2 in like, 7 years. I'd forgotten who Dr. Breen was until I got to the part about The Combine. Up until then, I thought the quote was from a Cerberus News Network thing or a quote from TIM's manifesto that I must have missed.
The idea of humanity collaborating, even taken out of a Reaper context and applied to cooperating with the galactic community, fits with TIM and Cerberus so well it's spooky.
I have that thread bookmarked and I go back to it every day. It's quite interesting.
The idea of humanity collaborating, even taken out of a Reaper context and applied to cooperating with the galactic community, fits with TIM and Cerberus so well it's spooky.
I have that thread bookmarked and I go back to it every day. It's quite interesting.
Modifié par RobotWalk, 31 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .
#162
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 07:11
twisty77
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This is some great stuff. So much stuff to digest. Any idea when the next section, the one after the Cerberus/TIM section is going up?
Modifié par twisty77, 31 juillet 2011 - 07:12 .
#163
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 07:33
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Hmm, so you're posting here now. I did register on the steam forums just so I could post a more organized response than the one I posted earlier in this thread (and will post now).
Anyway...
Regarding the Illusive Man I think much of what you said is very probable. I especially like the reference to Dr. Breen (though I disagree on Dr. Breen's motives, that is ultimately subjective). I disagree though that the Illusive Man has, even subtly (and without knowing it) been working against humanity and Shepard all this time. He used Shepard on the Collector ship for a good reason. Confirming that the Reapers used an IFF would allow him to confirm that the device retrieved by the Reaper team was indeed the device Shepard needed. Otherwise he'd be sending Shepard in there for no reason.
We know from Lair of the Shadow Broker that the Broker had some information on the Normandy and Project Lazarus, including video feed. Zulu has speculated this was intentionally allowed by Cerberus, but it isn't certain.
I think TIM's logs during the mission summaries are important here. After Horizon (or maybe it is the Collector ship) his log indicates that it is impossible to block Harbringer's ability to possess minions and that the Collectors may have an information network even more sophisticated than the Shadow Broker's. Clearly he's working against the problem here.
His logs concerning Haestrom and Tali's loyalty mission also have him taking steps to safeguard quarian stability so that they will be useful allies during the Reaper war.
When it comes to Arrival TIM may very well have known about it, but why tell Shepard? Until Kenson was arrested there was no reason for Shepard to be involved. All TIM has to do is sit back and let Hackett contact the Normandy. After all, for Hackett to send that message he must have gone through TIM anyway (Shepard confirms this when confronting the Illusive Man after Jacob's loyalty mission).
Anyway...
Regarding the Illusive Man I think much of what you said is very probable. I especially like the reference to Dr. Breen (though I disagree on Dr. Breen's motives, that is ultimately subjective). I disagree though that the Illusive Man has, even subtly (and without knowing it) been working against humanity and Shepard all this time. He used Shepard on the Collector ship for a good reason. Confirming that the Reapers used an IFF would allow him to confirm that the device retrieved by the Reaper team was indeed the device Shepard needed. Otherwise he'd be sending Shepard in there for no reason.
We know from Lair of the Shadow Broker that the Broker had some information on the Normandy and Project Lazarus, including video feed. Zulu has speculated this was intentionally allowed by Cerberus, but it isn't certain.
I think TIM's logs during the mission summaries are important here. After Horizon (or maybe it is the Collector ship) his log indicates that it is impossible to block Harbringer's ability to possess minions and that the Collectors may have an information network even more sophisticated than the Shadow Broker's. Clearly he's working against the problem here.
His logs concerning Haestrom and Tali's loyalty mission also have him taking steps to safeguard quarian stability so that they will be useful allies during the Reaper war.
When it comes to Arrival TIM may very well have known about it, but why tell Shepard? Until Kenson was arrested there was no reason for Shepard to be involved. All TIM has to do is sit back and let Hackett contact the Normandy. After all, for Hackett to send that message he must have gone through TIM anyway (Shepard confirms this when confronting the Illusive Man after Jacob's loyalty mission).
#164
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 07:39
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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I want to point out another thing.
What happened on the derelict Reaper? How long was the Cerberus team there? Why weren't precuations taken to stop them from being indoctrinated?
We do know they examined the Reaper even down to a microscopic level to make sure it was dead, but somebody should have noticed the signs of indoctrination.
I have a theory on this.
TIM may have sent the team there deliberately to research the Reaper and be indoctrinated in the process.
Think about this: a Reaper is a huge, over a kilometer in length. Knowing very little about how Reapers are put together and being forced to create our own living space and access points within and around the Reaper, how long would it take to find the IFF? That IFF fits into Shepard's hand. It is very tiny.
Needle in a haystack much?
Without knowing exactly what the IFF looked like or where it was located the crew spend decades taking apart that thing and never find it, or find it and overlook it.
Perhaps, and I'm just speculating, they were allowed to become indoctrinated to better link them to the ship and allow them to find the IFF?
During the early to mid stages of indoctrination they might have been able to sense the layout of the Reaper as they were able to sense one another. This may have given them subconscious directions to look for the IFF as they sought to understand their slumbering god.
Another (or related) idea is that they deliberately powered the Reaper up so they could data-mine and it and use that to locate systems or devices and help them determine their function.
The important thing here is this: Cerberus was working against time. Once the Collectors started taking colonies they needed to formulate a counter-attack as fast as possible. They couldn't afford to spend years slowly (and safely) taking the Reaper apart. They needed that information and they needed it now.
What happened on the derelict Reaper? How long was the Cerberus team there? Why weren't precuations taken to stop them from being indoctrinated?
We do know they examined the Reaper even down to a microscopic level to make sure it was dead, but somebody should have noticed the signs of indoctrination.
I have a theory on this.
TIM may have sent the team there deliberately to research the Reaper and be indoctrinated in the process.
Think about this: a Reaper is a huge, over a kilometer in length. Knowing very little about how Reapers are put together and being forced to create our own living space and access points within and around the Reaper, how long would it take to find the IFF? That IFF fits into Shepard's hand. It is very tiny.
Needle in a haystack much?
Without knowing exactly what the IFF looked like or where it was located the crew spend decades taking apart that thing and never find it, or find it and overlook it.
Perhaps, and I'm just speculating, they were allowed to become indoctrinated to better link them to the ship and allow them to find the IFF?
During the early to mid stages of indoctrination they might have been able to sense the layout of the Reaper as they were able to sense one another. This may have given them subconscious directions to look for the IFF as they sought to understand their slumbering god.
Another (or related) idea is that they deliberately powered the Reaper up so they could data-mine and it and use that to locate systems or devices and help them determine their function.
The important thing here is this: Cerberus was working against time. Once the Collectors started taking colonies they needed to formulate a counter-attack as fast as possible. They couldn't afford to spend years slowly (and safely) taking the Reaper apart. They needed that information and they needed it now.
Modifié par Saphra Deden, 31 juillet 2011 - 07:43 .
#165
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 07:42
Seboist
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TIM talks about the Geth,Krogan and Vorcha being needed against the Reapers too in his mission reports.
#166
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 05:10
bboynexus
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Saphra Deden wrote... I disagree though that the Illusive Man has, even subtly (and without knowing it) been working against humanity and Shepard all this time.
I completely agree. I was more just addressing the widespread theory as opposed to endorsing it myself. I don't believe at all that the Illusive Man has been working against humanity this whole time.
#167
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 01:42
bboynexus
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I have posted Section 7 for those who are interested. It's not Section 6, but I need a little more time to nail that down, I think. Enjoy. 
#168
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 02:15
JimiShep
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Thank you I can't wait to read it! Plus Saphra makes a great point I would like to add more to it! What if in the process of TIM's team getting indoc... he studies the effect as well. It's a win win win...
#169
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 02:33
Shotokanguy
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I've been waiting for section 7!
But I could've sworn section 6 was up already, I checked for 7 several times and never noticed an empty post above it.
Well, hurry up and get 6 up there! This stuff is a shining beacon of hope for me, when it comes to the potential scope of ME3's story.
But I could've sworn section 6 was up already, I checked for 7 several times and never noticed an empty post above it.
Well, hurry up and get 6 up there! This stuff is a shining beacon of hope for me, when it comes to the potential scope of ME3's story.
#170
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 02:39
JimiShep
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I know I really want to get section 7 up, but this is a great read! thank you very much.... I love the end about the female krogan and the connection between Saren and the beings of light. I so missed that!!! thanks
#171
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 02:52
TuringPoint
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Hey. This stuff is interesting.
#172
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 03:06
HBC Dresden
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More people need to talk about this analysis. Instead, they waste their time arguing and legitimizing smudboy's rants.
#174
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 03:31
111987
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I thought his point about the 'beings of light' and the Volus ship Saren raised was interesting; I never even thought of that connection. I'm not sure if I agree with the 'beings of light' being a Prothean VI though; didn't they say the 'beings of light' were born at the beginning of time?
#175
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 03:48
marshalleck
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50,000 years ago would predate most, if not all species' written history. So "at the beginning of time" could be a metaphor, of sorts. Only the hanar have an oral tradition that tells of contact with the Enkindlers, which were believed to be Prothean.111987 wrote...
didn't they say the 'beings of light' were born at the beginning of time?
Modifié par marshalleck, 04 septembre 2011 - 03:48 .
