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[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

For this post:

http://forums.steamp...&postcount=3063

They banned you for THAT? Wow, what a crap hole. You're better off.

Someone says something like that here every five minutes or so...

[onelifecrisis]

I skipped ahead to the section on the Lazarus Project, and again I'm not convinced. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways: either it's believable in-game in which case it's unbelievable to the player, or it's unbelievable in-game in which case everyone in the game should be questioning it... and yet nobody does. Everyone in the game accepts Shepard's resurrection with an absolute minimum of fuss. Whichever way you twist it, the Lazarus Project is a fubar piece of storytelling.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Reading the Arrival section... um, who thought that the "human" Reaper was meant to replace Sovereign or accomplish what Sovereign failed to? Huh?

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[onelifecrisis]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Reading the Arrival section... um, who thought that the "human" Reaper was meant to replace Sovereign? Huh?

I thought it was meant to help the reaper invasion in some way. Not necessarily by repeating exactly what Sovereign did, but certainly by doing something that either helps the reapers to get to the galaxy, or prepares something that helps them once they've arrived.

If it's not for that then what benefit do you see to starting it early (and thereby drawing attention that ends up getting it destroyed)?

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[slimgrin]

Lol. I honestly don't see how people look so deep into Mass Effect.

[onelifecrisis]

slimgrin wrote...

Lol. I honestly don't see how people look so deep into Mass Effect.

The HR is right at the core of everything that happens in ME2. Trying to figure out what it's for isn't exactly what I'd call "looking deep".

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[didymos1120]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Reading the Arrival section... um, who thought that the "human" Reaper was meant to replace Sovereign or accomplish what Sovereign failed to? Huh?

A rather large number of people.  It used to be brought up constantly, until Mac Walters finally killed the idea via Twitter (and you still occasionally run into the odd person who hasn't heard and/or thinks it's novel).

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Reading the Arrival section... um, who thought that the "human" Reaper was meant to replace Sovereign or accomplish what Sovereign failed to? Huh?

A rather large number of people.  It used to be brought up constantly, until Mac Walters finally killed the idea via Twitter (and you still occasionally run into the odd person who hasn't heard and/or thinks it's novel).

It's called Death of the Author. If Mac wanted it not to be interpreted that way then he should have put the relevant information in the game, not on Twitter.

[didymos1120]

onelifecrisis wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Reading the Arrival section... um, who thought that the "human" Reaper was meant to replace Sovereign or accomplish what Sovereign failed to? Huh?

A rather large number of people.  It used to be brought up constantly, until Mac Walters finally killed the idea via Twitter (and you still occasionally run into the odd person who hasn't heard and/or thinks it's novel).

It's called Death of the Author. If Mac wanted it not to be interpreted that way then he should have put the relevant information in the game, not on Twitter.

No, it's not called "Death Of The Author", because I wasn't referring to people who simply choose to interpret things their own way regardless of what the author (though the ME games don't really have "an author") has to say about their intent in a work or what the author's politics, ethnicity, whatever are.

Also, this isn't a case of people construing facts differently, because there's absolutely nothing in the game that even hints that the HR was intended to be another vanguard. And what Mac said on twitter wasn't adding anything to what was said in the game anyway. He simply affirmed that it was exactly what it was said to be: the construction of a new Reaper for its own sake.

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[onelifecrisis]

Contracted:

didymos1120 wrote...

I wasn't referring to people who simply choose to interpret things their own way regardless of what the author has to say about their intent.

[Mac] simply affirmed that it was the construction of a new Reaper for its own sake.

Er... okaay...

didymos1120 wrote...

Also, this isn't a case of people construing facts differently, because there's absolutely nothing in the game that even hints that the HR was intended to be another vanguard.

If the HR was meant to be a Vanguard (or something) then there is a reason for its early (and risky) pre-invasion construction. Otherwise, there isn't.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[armass]

I personally think that the collectors were a distraction, while the reaper made their way towards the alpha relay. Human-Reaper larva could have been completed when the reapers arrived at Earth and collectors would have pretty much gotten a free pass to the planet to get humans.

So pretty much what we destroyed in ME2 was a distraction. And it almost worked, were it not for Kenson's accidental discovery.

Modifié par armass, 12 novembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[onelifecrisis]

armass wrote...

I personally think that the collectors were a distraction, while the reaper made their way towards the alpha relay. Human-Reaper larva could have been completed when the reapers arrived at Earth and collectors would have pretty much gotten a free pass to the planet to get humans.

So pretty much what we destroyed in ME2 was a distraction. And it almost worked, were it not for Kenson's accidental discovery.

The collectors were secretly stealing small colonies without leaving any trace of evidence in an attempt to distract us? Oh dear me...

[armass]

onelifecrisis wrote...

armass wrote...

I personally think that the collectors were a distraction, while the reaper made their way towards the alpha relay. Human-Reaper larva could have been completed when the reapers arrived at Earth and collectors would have pretty much gotten a free pass to the planet to get humans.

So pretty much what we destroyed in ME2 was a distraction. And it almost worked, were it not for Kenson's accidental discovery.

The collectors were secretly stealing small colonies without leaving any trace of evidence in an attempt to distract us? Oh dear me...

Well Im pretty sure Harbinger expected somebody to wisen up to the dissappearances, but he was too arrogant. He didn't expect that Shepard would be alive, or that they could in any way found a way to the galactic core and collector base. The collectors simply started early to do what the reaper planned to do with humans after sovereigns death. All this while reapers themselves were making their way into the alpha relay that would have granted them instantaneus travel into anywhere in the galaxy, Earth without going through Arcturus, Rannoch, you name it. It would have been a devastating surprise attack.

Modifié par armass, 12 novembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Arkitekt]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Contracted:

didymos1120 wrote...

I wasn't referring to people who simply choose to interpret things their own way regardless of what the author has to say about their intent.

[Mac] simply affirmed that it was the construction of a new Reaper for its own sake.

Er... okaay...

didymos1120 wrote...

Also, this isn't a case of people construing facts differently, because there's absolutely nothing in the game that even hints that the HR was intended to be another vanguard.

If the HR was meant to be a Vanguard (or something) then there is a reason for its early (and risky) pre-invasion construction. Otherwise, there isn't.

It's all a matter of risk assessment. From Harby's POV the risk was next to null, since the Collector ship was trashing every adversary on its path, and the reapers were already near the Alpha relay to get to Earth, where **** would just get real really soon. Alas, the Alpha Relay was destroyed by Shepard with an Alliance's asteroid. This gives Shepard et al a good chance to fight the Collectors, since now they have the time to do so. The Collectors / Harbinger were also trustworthy that Shep couldn't pull it off.

It wasn't a bad plan per se. Weren't it for a rogue ex-spectre working for a secretive organization, the Alliance wouldn't have reached any conclusion on the Collector's matters before it was too late, since the alpha relay alliance team was also being indoctrinated, meaning the reapers were in control of the situation.


Of course, this is a game where the heroes have a fighting chance, and so the bad guys must have holes in their strategy or else the game would be pointless.

[onelifecrisis]

Arkitekt wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Contracted:

didymos1120 wrote...

I wasn't referring to people who simply choose to interpret things their own way regardless of what the author has to say about their intent.

[Mac] simply affirmed that it was the construction of a new Reaper for its own sake.

Er... okaay...

didymos1120 wrote...

Also, this isn't a case of people construing facts differently, because there's absolutely nothing in the game that even hints that the HR was intended to be another vanguard.

If the HR was meant to be a Vanguard (or something) then there is a reason for its early (and risky) pre-invasion construction. Otherwise, there isn't.

It's all a matter of risk assessment. From Harby's POV the risk was next to null, since the Collector ship was trashing every adversary on its path, and the reapers were already near the Alpha relay to get to Earth, where **** would just get real really soon. Alas, the Alpha Relay was destroyed by Shepard with an Alliance's asteroid. This gives Shepard et al a good chance to fight the Collectors, since now they have the time to do so. The Collectors / Harbinger were also trustworthy that Shep couldn't pull it off.

It wasn't a bad plan per se. Weren't it for a rogue ex-spectre working for a secretive organization, the Alliance wouldn't have reached any conclusion on the Collector's matters before it was too late, since the alpha relay alliance team was also being indoctrinated, meaning the reapers were in control of the situation.


Of course, this is a game where the heroes have a fighting chance, and so the bad guys must have holes in their strategy or else the game would be pointless.

I've yet to see anyone come up with a single reason for (or benefit to) starting construction the HR before the invasion, given that the plan was to not finish it until after the invasion. This isn't a plan with holes in it; it's not even a plan.

[Arkitekt]

I don't need to, since your reasoning is flawed from the get go. If the risk assessment outputs "zero", and if you have plenty of resources to waste on your end, the schedule to produce a human reaper has more to do with the reaper's own business plans on that end than anything else happening at the same time.

Further, the human reaper experiment could provide the reapers more intel on the humans per se, to actually confirm that they are ripe for reaperization or not, since the Protheans weren't. Having confirmed this situation, Harby tells us that they got humanity on their sights.

[bboynexus]

The Human-Reaper would not have been finished after the invasion. It would have been finished during the invasion.

[onelifecrisis]

Arkitekt wrote...

I don't need to

Translation: you can't.

Arkitekt wrote...

If the risk assessment outputs "zero"

How on earth would it be zero? Are we to assume that the reapers don't know basic probability now?

[onelifecrisis]

bboynexus wrote...

The Human-Reaper would not have been finished after the invasion. It would have been finished during the invasion.

Same difference: no reason to start early.

[bboynexus]

Although what I've written is far from full-proof, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion without knowing exactly why the Collectors (and the Reapers) were building the Human-Reaper (aside from reproduction) to begin with.

[didymos1120]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Same difference: no reason to start early.

Here's one: test sample.  Are humans truly compatible with the ascension process?  If yes, fantastic: we'll be moving on to full-production post-Arrival.  If no...well, so much for that idea.  We can just get started on the wholesale slaughter thing right off the bat and not have to bother with securing Earth and other human worlds.

[Killjoy Cutter]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I've yet to see anyone come up with a single reason for (or benefit to) starting construction the HR before the invasion, given that the plan was to not finish it until after the invasion. This isn't a plan with holes in it; it's not even a plan.

The Reapers did it because they wanted to.  They are intensely arrogant, and give no thought to actually being thwarted.

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Same difference: no reason to start early.

Here's one: test sample.  Are humans truly compatible with the ascension process?  If yes, fantastic: we'll be moving on to full-production post-Arrival.  If no...well, so much for that idea.  We can just get started on the wholesale slaughter thing right off the bat and not have to bother with securing Earth and other human worlds.

[edited]
Wait... are you assuming that humans are the only species that are being considered for ascension?

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 12 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[didymos1120]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Wait... are you assuming that humans are the only species that are being considered for ascension?

Um, well, yeah.  We already know the other ones got rejected.  I suppose it's possible some race we've never heard of is also considered good Reaper material, but until it's actually mentioned, everything we know says humans are it this time around.

ETA:  Although, it has to be noted that the elcor, hanar, volus, batarians and vorcha are technically in the running since Harbinger didn't have any disses for them. Given that all the other races did get dissed, however, I find it unlikely those species are rated very highly (and in the batarians case, what we've seen of ME3 suggests they indeed failed to make the grade).

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 novembre 2011 - 08:18 .

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Wait... are you assuming that humans are the only species that are being considered for ascension?

Um, well, yeah.  We already know the other ones got rejected.  I suppose it's possible some race we've never heard of is also considered good Reaper material, but until it's actually mentioned, everything we know says humans are it this time around.

What makes you say that?

Shepard: "Sovereign was going to harvest all life in the galaxy."