180 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

*Delete  double post... browsers action  stoopid*

Modifié par nitefyre410, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[Atakuma]

Savber100 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Bioware needs to be able to discern the root cause rather than use fan complaints as an excuse to make vast changes that no one wanted.

Laidlaw wanted them.

Honestly I don't know what Laidlaw wants but I know he's not actively thinking "hm, what's the best way to ruin DA?" 

He's a good designer but his STYLE is more akin to games like Jade Empire and more action RPGs not tactical RPGs like DA. 

As a result, the request for better combat was taken as a valid complaint to make everyone in DA2 fight like JE NPC wannabes. 

That was sort of my point. He changed the game to be more in line with his personal style and the feedback was more or less used as an excuse to do so.

[nitefyre410]

leonia42 wrote...

If they didn't listen to their fans, I don't think Legacy would have been half as successful. They took a lot of the right and good feedback into account.

Bolded what I added   

Cause the key is listening to the right  feedback from fans.  Honestly some of the feedback I have seen is good and some i have see has let me looking like this . 

[kglaser]

So they should stop listening to those who are spending their hard-earned money on their products? Oh, ok...NOT!
Please drive through, thank you. Next!

[PinkDiamondstl]

OdanUrr wrote...

@PinkDiamondstl: Please stop spamming.

I'm not spamming . This guy's thread is pointless. 

[TheConfidenceMan]

If by "fans" you mean fans of the first game, I'd say those are the only ones Bioware should be listening to. You see what happens when they don't. This game is largely forgotten already. Disappeared from the charts after a week. Aside from this forum no one seriously talks about it anymore unless it's to ridicule Bioware and use it as an example of what mass-market chasing hacks they've become. It occupies the same strata as a game like Deus Ex: Invisible War, nothing more than a footnote, a reminder of what can go wrong when you neglect the very fanbase that helped establish the following you enjoy in the first place.

[OdanUrr]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

I'm not spamming . This guy's thread is pointless.

If that's the case, I'm sure a dev or a mod will lock it pretty soon.

[astrallite]

You are right OP. Fans just hold back creative genius.

If fans were being heard, we wouldn't have a masterpiece like Daikatana.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

[inappropriate, off-topic post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:24 .

[megski]

Hmmm, 'fans' like me, and many others like me, purchase books, t-shirts, artwork, and all sorts of other crap aside from the game. If myself and lots of other people like me suddenly become disenchanted (enchantment! XD) with a franchise, a company is not just out of game money, but lots of other products. With this being said, I feel like opinions from myself and invested fans like me is credible, and anyone trying to make money off a franchise would be a fool not to listen.

[Bryy_Miller]

Honestly, BioWare really needs to cut the "fans are a part of the design process" BS out of their vocabulary. They already have horrible marketing. What they need is a clear line of communication with the player, not this vague "we know what's best/you help us" tomfoolery.

Game Design should be only as collaborative as any fan/creator dynamic. Ultimately, BioWare needs to make games that creatively satisfy BioWare.

[ItsTheTruth]

If they listened to fans, then why DA2? Most of the players who loved DA:O never asked for those changes in the first place.

[Bryy_Miller]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

If they listened to fans, then why DA2? Most of the players who loved DA:O never asked for those changes in the first place.

Well, now we get into the sticky wicket of "My side of the fanbase is better than yours".

[nicolom]

[spam post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .

[bEVEsthda]

txgoldrush wrote...

Bioware needs to keep going the direction they want to go and innovate the series, and going back to Dragon Age Origins is the worst thing they can do. Its like giving up because everything didn't work out as they planned.

Let's see here, BW suddenly makes a completely different game, for a completely different audience, and publishes it as the sequel to their best received game ever, what was the plan? 

I agree with the OP. Developers need to have their own vision of the game and why it would be fun to play it. But there's a big problem with that in big corporations, and that is that where market research suggests there is a big market, is much more important. So the developers end up doing a game they don't have any personal understanding for anyway, on the assumption that it's what suits a large number of gamers.

Regardless, the big mistake this time was to release a new game as a sequel it wasn't. And that is actually dam stupid marketing. So stupid that it's completely mindboggling. If it weren't for that it's not the first time EA does something that is totally incomprehensibly stupid...

Plus, except for the repeating and recycled dungeons, DAII's flaws are simply exaggerated, while DAO's are glossed over. And really the #1 problem is that the game was rushed, far more than either gameplay or story problems. It was the world design that was responsible for 95% of the games problems.

Thankyou for stating this popular and rational misconception. I myself was one of those who first posted that the short development was to blame for faults. In my defense is that I used it to defend Laidlaw in threads that were unnecessarily
hostile. And also that it's actually true - many perceived flaws in DA2 really are there due to lack of time.

But here's the shocker: None of that was the #1 problem with DA2.
The number #1 problem with DA2 was that the DA:O fans didn't like the game. They hated it for what it was, and they hated it for what it did to DA.
They looked to DA to provide classic party-RPG. Regardless of any speculations in the general profitability of leaning towards JRPG or action games, that's not what the DA audience expected for a sequel. And a good deal of them actually utterly despise those kinds of games. On the basis of this, it doesn't matter if DA2 is a good game or not, or what flaws it has or has not.

DAO was so generic and so conservative that it would really kill the series to go back to it.

A rubbish statement void of substance. DAO was a unique game, so how can it possibly be "generic"? If there is anything that is generic, it's the ridiculous anime style of DA2. And what exactly is "conservative" about DA:O? And what is not "conservative" about Donkey Kong gameplay with emphasis on bosses, hitpoints and loot? Or Final Fantasy movies? Over the top animations? Quite old. Old, old, old!
...And quite bad as well.

Now, finally, there is the sheer success of DA:O. Let me ask you a question: Where would CoD or Sims be today, if the developers had figured that doing a sequel in the same spirit as the first game "would really kill the series to go back to it"?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:09 .

[Cyberarmy]

mrcrusty wrote...

astrallite wrote...

You are right OP. Fans just hold back creative genius.

If fans were being heard, we wouldn't have a masterpiece like Daikatana.

John Romero made you his b****.

Suck it down.

That was one of the biggest fails of gaming world.
Wow Daikatana ,attack of the evil frogs... Even pirates didnt bother with it.

[Aaleel]

Weren't some of the "innovations" made in DA2 from fan feedback from Origins. I'm not understanding point of this topic if the OP liked DA2.

Edit: Also Legacy was a step in the right direction based off fan feedback as well.

Modifié par Aaleel, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[Jerrybnsn]

The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released. That's why the lead designer from Origins declined to make the sequel with EAs vision. Laidlaw said he would do it their way. Hence, the "We are going after CoD fans" and "We''ll be more streamlined like the ME series". This was all done and set in stone before Origins became Bioware's greatest hit. So, no, they weren't listening to fans at all when it came to DAII.

[0x30A88]

When someone is unsure about buying a game, they often come to forums ans ask. People who bought the game on week one or prepurchase would give them their opinion. That's what I suspect is the reasson for the bad sales.

When I asked on another forum whether to buy origins last summer, the two-three posters below me would say yes.

[Alright-Television]

leonia42 wrote...

If they didn't listen to their fans, I don't think Legacy would have been half as successful. They took a lot of feedback into account.

Such as?

[Eternal Phoenix]

From what I've heard, the Legacy DLC is good and it was the result of Bioware listening to fans. All fans want is for Bioware to continue how they did when they made Origins. They don't want Witcher. I don't want Witcher. I want a traditional styled RPG. Not an action RPG as DA2 was. Yes, DA2 wasn't a bad game but the majority would have preferred a traditional type RPG.

[Sylvianus]

The ask is easy, but the answer isn't.

It's complicated, and it would be foolish to take an absolutist way or another. There is a measurable degree to follow, it is very important to identify the desires of his fans, see what we can do for them, which can make them happy and add to the love and loyalty for a production .

And at the same time to follow his own path, sometimes contrary to the wishes expressed. Sometimes it's instinctive, intellectual, or in terms of realism with respect to capacity constraints.

M2 is the example that we shouldn't always take seriously the words of the fans.

He was accused of things that had been requested before.

That said I think fundamentally wrong to say that DA2 is the major result of what has been asked by fans. No, it's the opposite. Bioware wanted to change because they felt it shouldn't stagnate on success. They were right or not to change everything, whatever, but many change are born from their own will.

Yes, indeed, they wanted to satisfy some  wishes of fans as well. For example, for combat. And it seems to me that many people were happy.

[Travie]

The OP's original point was pretty much invalid when he compared this team to 'a great band.'

They made a sub-par product and people want them to do better.

They could ignore them and just keep thinking everything is fine... but I doubt it will happen after the response to DA2.

[Aesieru]

As I've said before... I like BioWare, but what they did with BioWare stole any amount of enjoyment from me because of the way they implemented the arguably poor story, and the implementation and style of art and gameplay itself.

I am not enjoying that experience and have no desire whatsoever to FORCE MYSELF to play through it again... especially with all the horrible boss fights and ridiculous moves or scripted events that were made.

This DLC itself isn't even all that good.

[Wozearly]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released. That's why the lead designer from Origins declined to make the sequel with EAs vision. Laidlaw said he would do it their way. Hence, the "We are going after CoD fans" and "We''ll be more streamlined like the ME series". This was all done and set in stone before Origins became Bioware's greatest hit. So, no, they weren't listening to fans at all when it came to DAII.

You have anything to back that up? It'd be pretty freaking weird for a company to sink costs into developing a sequel before the first game was even finished, with no real indication of how successful it would be. 

As for Laidlaw, he's not my #1 favourite guy at the moment, but it doesn't ring true that EA said "...do something like this" and he rolled over like a ****cat. Laidlaw has a background in more action-driven RPGs and Bioware as a general rule has been adding more action and pace into games for several years. My guess is he took what he believed would improve the franchise and did the best he (and the entire team) could do in the time they had.

For some people, it worked. For others, it *could* have worked - but didn't. Laidlaw still clearly believes it can work, he's said so several times and though this contributes to him not being my favourite person, I at least admire the courage of his convictions...and for my own sake, I hope he's right.

bEVEsthda wrote...

The
number #1 problem with DA2 was that the DA:O fans didn't like the game.
They hated it for what it was, and they hated it for what it did to DA...[its] not what the DA audience expected for a sequel.

I'm not sure if that was the #1 problem with DA2, but it is the underlying cause of the emotion and fury behind a lot of the complaints about DA2 and, ultimately, the rift that its caused in the fanbase. Or technically fanbases, as it seems clear that there are camps of DA2 lovers and DA2 detractors (of whom a significant number are huge fans of DA:O), each furiously trying to influence Bioware to;

[1. Make DA3 more like DA:O]
2. Do whatever, as I didn't put any points in coercion
[3. Make DA3 like DA2]

Modifié par Wozearly, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:08 .