180 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

xkg wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released. That's why the lead designer from Origins declined to make the sequel with EAs vision. Laidlaw said he would do it their way. Hence, the "We are going after CoD fans" and "We''ll be more streamlined like the ME series". This was all done and set in stone before Origins became Bioware's greatest hit. So, no, they weren't listening to fans at all when it came to DAII.

You have anything to back that up? It'd be pretty freaking weird for a company to sink costs into developing a sequel before the first game was even finished, with no real indication of how successful it would be. 

From Lead Designer of DAO:

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together.
Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be.

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

I was wondering when someone was going to quote from Brent Knowles in a horribly out of context way.

[xkg]

^ Maybe explain how is it "horribly out of context".

[csfteeeer]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

xkg wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released. That's why the lead designer from Origins declined to make the sequel with EAs vision. Laidlaw said he would do it their way. Hence, the "We are going after CoD fans" and "We''ll be more streamlined like the ME series". This was all done and set in stone before Origins became Bioware's greatest hit. So, no, they weren't listening to fans at all when it came to DAII.

You have anything to back that up? It'd be pretty freaking weird for a company to sink costs into developing a sequel before the first game was even finished, with no real indication of how successful it would be. 

From Lead Designer of DAO:

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together.
Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be.

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

I was wondering when someone was going to quote from Brent Knowles in a horribly out of context way.

i don't see how is this out of context.

[csfteeeer]

txgoldrush wrote...

A) Its not the best recieved, BG II has a higher critical acclaim and an even gretaer legacy, KOTOR has far more GOTY awards and was responsible along with Morrowind in bringing WRPGs to consoles in the first place. Mass Effect 2, one of the highest, if not the highest, critical acclaim in RPG history and a ton of GOTY awards. Last time I checked, DAO was smoked by Uncharted 2 in GOTY awards in 2009 and many places put Demon's Souls ahead of DAO for RPGOTY, I do too.

like 2 places, those aren't too many.

[Realmzmaster]

I tis good business practice to listen to consumers, who can explain and articulate their complaints. But creating games is still a creative process that depends on the vision of the developers. Fan influence should not be allowed to kill the creative porcess.
No one tells R.A. Salvatore what to write about. Fan mail make suggest stories and direction, but in the end it is up to the writer.
If Bioware had listen to all the fan musings DAO would never have happened. Bioware decided on a new IP. Most of the fans wanted Baldur's Gate 3 based on D & D.
DAO came out and it is critically acclaimed and sold many copies. If you were on the forums back in 2009 some gamers hated DAO, because it did not follow the formula of Baldur's Gate.

Yes , fans should be listen to, but their input can also be dead wrong. Many times what fans say they want is not what they want. We know what we want and do not want when we see it, but try to get most of us to articulate what we want and the fans will be at odds with each other.

You can see it on these forums. Voiced vs unvoiced protagonist, DAO vs DA2 art style etc. There comes a point in time where you stop listening to the fans and go develop the product.

The process then starts over again. The fans give their opinions of what is right and wrong. The developers create a DLC like Legacy. The fans pipe in again. You are never going to please all the fans and a game created by committee is not one I want to play.
A game is always going to be one person's vision which gets refined by the team and some fan input.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:21 .

[Bryy_Miller]

csfteeeer wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

xkg wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released. That's why the lead designer from Origins declined to make the sequel with EAs vision. Laidlaw said he would do it their way. Hence, the "We are going after CoD fans" and "We''ll be more streamlined like the ME series". This was all done and set in stone before Origins became Bioware's greatest hit. So, no, they weren't listening to fans at all when it came to DAII.

You have anything to back that up? It'd be pretty freaking weird for a company to sink costs into developing a sequel before the first game was even finished, with no real indication of how successful it would be. 

From Lead Designer of DAO:

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together.
Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be.

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

I was wondering when someone was going to quote from Brent Knowles in a horribly out of context way.

i don't see how is this out of context.

Simply put, Brent Knowles gets quoted for everything, as if his word is the end all-be all. DA2 is horrible, Brent Knowles. EA is evil, Brent Knowles (even though Knowles has said in comments that EA had nothing to do with his decision). People use the same quote to try to prove all kinds of stuff. 

In reality, he's just a guy that quit his job because he was able to support his passion in life, which was writing. Simple as that.

Trust me, when people quote Brent Knowles, it's not because they actually know what they are tlking about.

[xkg]

^ ahhh Ok. So your comment was pointless I see. Not a big deal, brain farts happens to everyone now and then.

You just wanted to bash on something but if you read it again carefully you will find that there is nothing out of context here.
And no one even mentioned him quitting his job. Only why he didn't wanted to be lead designer again.

[upsettingshorts]

xkg wrote...

^ ahhh Ok. So your comment was pointless I see. Not a big deal, brain farts happens to everyone now and then.

You just wanted to bash on something but if you read it again carefully you will find that there is nothing out of context here.
And no one even mentioned him quitting his job. Only why he didn't wanted to be lead designer again.

Enjoying your confirmation bias?

Half the BSN wraps themselves with theirs like a blanket.  Comments like this are no different.

[xkg]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Enjoying your confirmation bias?

Half the BSN wraps themselves with theirs like a blanket.  Comments like this are no different.

Dude, are you talking to me ? If so are you enjoying your pointless post ?

Jerry wrote :

Jerrybnsn wrote...
The direction for DAII was already decided ten months before Origins was released.

then Wozearly asked:

Wozearly wrote...
You have anything to back that up?

And that quote was my answer to his question because I knew what Jerry was talking about.
So, where is any confirmation bias here ?

But if you insist to call it like that - no problem , do so. I couldn't care less what you think of it.

Modifié par xkg, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:41 .

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

In reality the developers should just listen to me and ignore everyone else.

Replace "the developers" with "everyone on the planet" and "me" with "ishmaeltheforsaken" and you've just solved all of mankind's problems, with bonus lesbians thrown in for good measure.

[nitefyre410]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I tis good business practice to listen to consumers, who can explain and articulate their complaints. But creating games is still a creative process that depends on the vision of the developers. Fan influence should not be allowed to kill the creative porcess.
No one tells R.A. Salvatore what to write about. Fan mail make suggest stories and direction, but in the end it is up to the writer.
If Bioware had listen to all the fan musings DAO would never have happened. Bioware decided on a new IP. Most of the fans wanted Baldur's Gate 3 based on D & D.
DAO came out and it is critically acclaimed and sold many copies. If you were on the forums back in 2009 some gamers hated DAO, because it did not follow the formula of Baldur's Gate.

Yes , fans should be listen to, but their input can also be dead wrong. Many times what fans say they want is not what they want. We know what we want and do not want when we see it, but try to get most of us to articulate what we want and the fans will be at odds with each other.

You can see it on these forums. Voiced vs unvoiced protagonist, DAO vs DA2 art style etc. There comes a point in time where you stop listening to the fans and go develop the product.

The process then starts over again. The fans give their opinions of what is right and wrong. The developers create a DLC like Legacy. The fans pipe in again. You are never going to please all the fans and a game created by committee is not one I want to play.
A game is always going to be one person's vision which gets refined by the team and some fan input.

^  people should to  listen to  theis  guy/gal here...  he or she is   making alot of sense.  

Bold  for awesome..

Yes we fans can be wrong and give bad  input.... The most of the times is it the over vocal minority get nit picky over EVER single little detail. Some of the critism I understand and agree with and some I just  'roll my eyes' 

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yes , fans should be listen to, but their input can also be dead wrong.

^  people should to  listen to  theis  guy/gal here...  he or she is   making alot of sense.  

Bold  for awesome..

Mine can't. Of course, I'm no ordinary fan.

This is true. Your awesome button is particularly developed.

[Sabariel]

The developers should listen to me and only me.

...

I want unicorns in DA3.

That is all

[Jerrybnsn]

I believe the Brent Knowles quote was used in context of confirming when the DA2 game was being discussed and in what direction it was going to. This should put an end to "DA2 was a result of fan feedback."

I really think that the game devs should be running the company of EA and get rid of anybody with a MBA. Sorry, but you guys are the last ones who should be deciding what should be in a game. Pulling numbers out of hat and making charts with those is exactly how DA2 became this Frankenstien Monster that has no idea what it wants to be and dissappoints a lot of fans.

So, please Bioware and EA. Check everyone's personal file. If any one has written down "recieved a MBA from..." send them packing.

[LyndseyCousland]

OP is display a certain amount of stupidity in my opinion. I think it's obvious that would be a bad idea.

[Bazedragon]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Developers should stop listening to "fans"EA

Fixed.

This.

[FieryDove]

etherhonky wrote...

Developers should stop listening to "fans".

I agree, air conditioners all the way!

Some do not listen so don't worry too much.

Fan #1 - I hate planet scanning!
Fan #2 - Planet scanning is boring!
Fan #3 - I liked planet scanning my first run. Second-tenth, no.
Fan #4 - Planet scanning should die!

Dev - Everyone loves planet scanning!

/snark

[TheRealJayDee]

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO does nothing innovative (even the Origins stories were done before, Secret of Mana's sequel for example) and nothing truly unique. its a generic run at the mill RPG catered to old school fans.

While DA:O might not do anything innovative (what exactly does this even mean?) and truly unique (which is quite difficult, and not necessarily a must), what it does it mostly does well. Maybe there are just a lot of old school fans and old school fans to be who want a really well made ‘run of the mill RPG’ catered to them? Because, seriously, how many games like DA:O are there today?
 
 

txgoldrush wrote...
And notice how CoD has increasing criticism against it as each game in the series is released....its because they don't innovate, they don't take risks, they just rehash.

 
Again, DA:O was the FIRST game of a NEW franchise and it was extremely popular and successful. Not that much time for anything to become stale, and not much evidence to support that it was perceived as such.
 
  
And notice how DA has increasing criticism against it as each game in the series is released…

[Realmzmaster]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I believe the Brent Knowles quote was used in context of confirming when the DA2 game was being discussed and in what direction it was going to. This should put an end to "DA2 was a result of fan feedback."

I really think that the game devs should be running the company of EA and get rid of anybody with a MBA. Sorry, but you guys are the last ones who should be deciding what should be in a game. Pulling numbers out of hat and making charts with those is exactly how DA2 became this Frankenstien Monster that has no idea what it wants to be and dissappoints a lot of fans.

So, please Bioware and EA. Check everyone's personal file. If any one has written down "recieved a MBA from..." send them packing.

Sorry most developers and creative persons should not run a business. And that is the operative word. It is a business. Most creative people and developers do not have a business sense. Many creative people set up business with good intentions but have no idea of how to run it.

Sorry you need those MBAs, accountants,, finance people, secretaries and receptionists  to keep the business humming. if you did not have people pushing the creative people the product may never leave the shop, because the creative people will still be trying to make it perfect. That is why you have budgets and deadlines.

You need some one who can say it 95% perfect trying to get the other 5% will break the bank. You have to have someone watching to make sure that the product will make money. It makes no sense to make the prefect game, sell lots of copies and not make money because you did not cover the production costs.

I for one will never advocate some one losing his/her job. I sure that you would not want some one advocating you lose your job because of the degree you hold. Performance is a different point.

Usually , you keep and lose your job based on performance not the degree. The degree simply helps get the job.

[JrayM16]

You have to find a balance. It's like waht Realmzmaster said above. Stuff like planet-scanning, it would take a fool to not see how people want that to be removed or at least improved.

The problem with listening to fans is the polarization; how no one can seem to agree what they like/dislike. Sometimes you can almost pin it down, say when you see people lash against the voiced protagonist. THen you find a fair amount of people who like the voiced protagonist. Now you're back to square 1.

Again as Realmzmaster pointed out, people complained about DA:O before it came out. I believe there is a cycle of fan "purging" for lack of a better word. Not by the devs, but by the fans themselves.

Before ME1 came out, people complained that it was a shooter and that it was not KOTOR 3. At least on the ME forums, you'll hardly ever see anyone like that anymore. Instead it's people talking about how ME1 was the friggin second coming and how ME2 was an abomination or something. And while it's too early to see, that may loop back around to ME3, and ME2 will become more popular on the forums. I'm not on the ME forums much, but from what I've seen the criticism of ME2 has cooled down a bit and the ME3 hate has begun.

THe same basic idea applies to DA. Now, we shall see how the future of fan perception pans out. After DA2 was released, the forums reached a critical mass of hatred and flamewars. However, we will not know the truth of DA2's forum legacy until DA3 has been out a while. Will it still be hated? Will it be appreciated more? Or will it be forgotten in liue of hating or loving DA3? Who knows?

Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

[Bryy_Miller]

xkg wrote...
And that quote was my answer to his question because I knew what Jerry was talking about.
So, where is any confirmation bias here ?

Did you even read my post about people using the Brent Knowles blog post for their own purposes?

We could debate what "decisions were being made" means until the ends of the Earth, but unless you were there, you don't know if it was ten months ago or ten weeks. 

[Stanley Woo]

JrayM16 wrote...
Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

We do, and we're not. What a lot of folks arguing for/against fan feedback seem to forget is that, no matter what people say, and no matter loudly, proudly, often, or reasonably or unreasonably they say it, we are the ones who have to do the work of implementing the ideas into an actual game product. As such, we will always have the final say as to what feedback we do or do not integrate into the product.

And we're not stupid, either. Sure, we may not always agree with the fan community, but we are human, and occasionally we will make mistakes or misjudge what people want or how well a given feature or game will be received. But as long as we learn something in the process, and as long we get reasonable, well-written and constructive criticism from our fans and gamers who are into BioWare games, we can do better the next time around.

take a look at the Dragon Age cycle for an example. After DAO, we got a lot of feedback from folks who liked and didn't like what we did. Combat's too slow, lore is great, this character sucks, that character's great, too long, not long enough, too brown, too linear, omg dragons!, etc. You get the idea. So we release DA2 with some of that feedback in mind and we get a lot more feedback, both positive and negative: awesome combat, waves suck, nice story, terrible story, yay Varric, that was seriously the ending?, reused maps blow chunks, omg dragons!, and you get the gist.

So we took that feedback into consideration and released Legacy DLC, which many people believe is a good step in demonstrating the commitment to quality and making things better for our fans. And we will continue to get better, based on both what you guys like and don't like, but remember, regardless of what the internet tells you, it is possible to disagree with and dislike something we do without it being THE WORST THING EVAR THAT WILL DESTROY RPGs FOR ALL TIME, just as it is possible for you to agree with and like something we do while still acknowledging its flaws.

To sum up: yes, we will continue to listen to our fans. No, we will not listen only to fans.

[nitefyre410]

Stanley Woo wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

We do, and we're not. What a lot of folks arguing for/against fan feedback seem to forget is that, no matter what people say, and no matter loudly, proudly, often, or reasonably or unreasonably they say it, we are the ones who have to do the work of implementing the ideas into an actual game product. As such, we will always have the final say as to what feedback we do or do not integrate into the product.

And we're not stupid, either. Sure, we may not always agree with the fan community, but we are human, and occasionally we will make mistakes or misjudge what people want or how well a given feature or game will be received. But as long as we learn something in the process, and as long we get reasonable, well-written and constructive criticism from our fans and gamers who are into BioWare games, we can do better the next time around.

take a look at the Dragon Age cycle for an example. After DAO, we got a lot of feedback from folks who liked and didn't like what we did. Combat's too slow, lore is great, this character sucks, that character's great, too long, not long enough, too brown, too linear, omg dragons!, etc. You get the idea. So we release DA2 with some of that feedback in mind and we get a lot more feedback, both positive and negative: awesome combat, waves suck, nice story, terrible story, yay Varric, that was seriously the ending?, reused maps blow chunks, omg dragons!, and you get the gist.

So we took that feedback into consideration and released Legacy DLC, which many people believe is a good step in demonstrating the commitment to quality and making things better for our fans. And we will continue to get better, based on both what you guys like and don't like, but remember, regardless of what the internet tells you, it is possible to disagree with and dislike something we do without it being THE WORST THING EVAR THAT WILL DESTROY RPGs FOR ALL TIME, just as it is possible for you to agree with and like something we do while still acknowledging its flaws.

To sum up: yes, we will continue to listen to our fans. No, we will not listen only to fans.

 


And the bolded is where I believe  alot of the Fans get into a knot about and its not just with Bioware  but with all game developers.  They arent geting exactly what they want all the time and what they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.