180 réponses à ce sujet

[Redcoat]

JrayM16 wrote...

You have to find a balance. It's like waht Realmzmaster said above. Stuff like planet-scanning, it would take a fool to not see how people want that to be removed or at least improved.

The problem with listening to fans is the polarization; how no one can seem to agree what they like/dislike. Sometimes you can almost pin it down, say when you see people lash against the voiced protagonist. THen you find a fair amount of people who like the voiced protagonist. Now you're back to square 1.

Again as Realmzmaster pointed out, people complained about DA:O before it came out. I believe there is a cycle of fan "purging" for lack of a better word. Not by the devs, but by the fans themselves.

Before ME1 came out, people complained that it was a shooter and that it was not KOTOR 3. At least on the ME forums, you'll hardly ever see anyone like that anymore. Instead it's people talking about how ME1 was the friggin second coming and how ME2 was an abomination or something. And while it's too early to see, that may loop back around to ME3, and ME2 will become more popular on the forums. I'm not on the ME forums much, but from what I've seen the criticism of ME2 has cooled down a bit and the ME3 hate has begun.

THe same basic idea applies to DA. Now, we shall see how the future of fan perception pans out. After DA2 was released, the forums reached a critical mass of hatred and flamewars. However, we will not know the truth of DA2's forum legacy until DA3 has been out a while. Will it still be hated? Will it be appreciated more? Or will it be forgotten in liue of hating or loving DA3? Who knows?

Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

That's a good point, really. I think most people will agree that the reused maps and the implementation of wave combat are flawed, but other changes that DA2 made are far more contentious. Take the combat animation and art style, for example, or the move to a voiced protagonist. I thoroughly disliked these changes, but there are many others who felt the opposite, and neither of us are any more "right" than the other. So when you have two groups, one saying "Feature X is awesome" and the other saying "Feature X is rubbish!", then whom do the developers listen to? In that case, I don't think they have any choice but to put their feet down and say, "This is how we're doing it, and that's final."

Of course, I hear things like, "BioWare's fanbase is unpleasable, so they shouldn't bother listening to them". Well yes, if you treat the fanbase like a monolithic entity that thinks with one mind, then yes, it is "unpleasable." No game that can appeal to everyone; I defy any game developer to produce a game that everybody likes. The closest examples I can think of are Ocarina of Time, or maybe the original Super Mario Bros., but I'm sure you wouldn't have to look far to find people who hate those games as well.

[dheer]

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Modifié par dheer, 28 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[nitefyre410]

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Been with Bioware all way  back  days  BG and Icewind dale days and it  does not bother me and I have played both console and PC.  Really  a lot i think is overly dramic Its not like the pulled a Arksys  who took Guilty  Gear from a fighting game to a brawler now that was crazy move   the entinre fighting community was like... "Herp"


I mean the  Witcher is a Action/Rpg when it comes to combat(Have not  played in while) but from what i remember was hitting the space bar to swing and attack then a key  to change sword stances.   

I am not saying that its perfect yeah  there  a things that can be fixed  - Like the map -  I hate it -  I want walked around my city and world  encounter some crazy happenings along the way not just sections of the city. Did I gets this-no   Did it  destory my experience with DA 2 no.   Will it stop from me buying  DA 3 -  No 

[erynnar]

Redcoat wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

You have to find a balance. It's like waht Realmzmaster said above. Stuff like planet-scanning, it would take a fool to not see how people want that to be removed or at least improved.

The problem with listening to fans is the polarization; how no one can seem to agree what they like/dislike. Sometimes you can almost pin it down, say when you see people lash against the voiced protagonist. THen you find a fair amount of people who like the voiced protagonist. Now you're back to square 1.

Again as Realmzmaster pointed out, people complained about DA:O before it came out. I believe there is a cycle of fan "purging" for lack of a better word. Not by the devs, but by the fans themselves.

Before ME1 came out, people complained that it was a shooter and that it was not KOTOR 3. At least on the ME forums, you'll hardly ever see anyone like that anymore. Instead it's people talking about how ME1 was the friggin second coming and how ME2 was an abomination or something. And while it's too early to see, that may loop back around to ME3, and ME2 will become more popular on the forums. I'm not on the ME forums much, but from what I've seen the criticism of ME2 has cooled down a bit and the ME3 hate has begun.

THe same basic idea applies to DA. Now, we shall see how the future of fan perception pans out. After DA2 was released, the forums reached a critical mass of hatred and flamewars. However, we will not know the truth of DA2's forum legacy until DA3 has been out a while. Will it still be hated? Will it be appreciated more? Or will it be forgotten in liue of hating or loving DA3? Who knows?

Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

That's a good point, really. I think most people will agree that the reused maps and the implementation of wave combat are flawed, but other changes that DA2 made are far more contentious. Take the combat animation and art style, for example, or the move to a voiced protagonist. I thoroughly disliked these changes, but there are many others who felt the opposite, and neither of us are any more "right" than the other. So when you have two groups, one saying "Feature X is awesome" and the other saying "Feature X is rubbish!", then whom do the developers listen to? In that case, I don't think they have any choice but to put their feet down and say, "This is how we're doing it, and that's final."

Of course, I hear things like, "BioWare's fanbase is unpleasable, so they shouldn't bother listening to them". Well yes, if you treat the fanbase like a monolithic entity that thinks with one mind, then yes, it is "unpleasable." No game that can appeal to everyone; I defy any game developer to produce a game that everybody likes. The closest examples I can think of are Ocarina of Time, or maybe the original Super Mario Bros., but I'm sure you wouldn't have to look far to find people who hate those games as well.

You are always right on the mark redcoat. I didn't like the changes you mentioned either. And no, they can't please everyone. And yes, they are going to have to put their foot down. I may find their comprimises (bless them) are good enough for me to continue to play DA, or I may come out the loser and feel that DAO will always be DA and the rest will be some weird anomaly that I dont' play.

[Wozearly]

xkg wrote...

From Lead Designer of DAO:

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together.
Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be.

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

Discussing the direction of the franchise isn't quite the same as fixing it in stone - but I accept your point. I wasn't aware they'd been discussing things in enough detail for the lead designer to decide to jump ship on that basis (although he may have felt the time had come in any case).

txgoldrush wrote...

Then the #1 problem is not DAII,
but the fans of Origins who want the same things over and over again.
The same conservative style, the same gameplay, the same style of
characters, the same story. If Bioware listened to them, everything
would be THE SAME. Why can't fans be open minded? I don't think Bioware
should cater to fans that don't accept change.

Really, Wind Waker
and Twilight Princess proved how completely idiotic fan bases are.
Remember the "Celda" controversey when cartoon Link was intorduced the
first time. Because idiot fans wanted Ocarina of Time all over again.
Then the games release shut them the hell up, especially about its art
style. Then comes Twilight Princess, pure fan service. After incredible
hype before and during release, the game truly showed what it was. A
cliched by the numbers Zelda that didn't stand the test of time and was
even surpassed by a more innovative Zelda style game in Okami in
acclaim. Even the creator wasn't happy with Twilight Princess. And look
which game won GameFAQs game of the decade....Majora's Mask, the most
oddball and progressive Zelda game.

Change for change's sake is not necessarily a good thing, y'know.

Making dramatic changes that your customer base hasn't bought into is, to say the least, a bit of a step into the unknown. Innovation can produce some pretty amazing things, I agree...I'm glad that the likes of Ion Storm, Looking Glass Studios, Bethesda and Paradox Interactive all went in unexpected directions with the types of games they created.

...however, that said, you'll note that their sequels tend to echo the core qualities of the original / previous game...and often play and 'feel' very familiar, rarely changing huge amounts in a single release. Its actually a well-trodden product development and branding process - mainly because its proven to be a successful approach in most cases.

Radical innovation is more usually kept for something new, to avoid exactly the problems Bioware ran into with DA:O fans not liking DA2 because so many things were different (and not necessarily better), and appealed to different qualities in a player.

The best example of this is dear ol' Coca Cola. In blind taste tests, people hugely preferred a new formula they'd worked on, so they replaced the original with it. Without much in the way of warning or fanfare. Absolute uproar ensued - they got grief from all directions, people were going out of the way to buy up 'old' coke and after a relatively short time Coca Cola abandoned the idea and went back to the original formula.

Its fine to take a theoretical standpoint and accuse the millions of Coke customers of being idiots as they didn't like the 'superior-tasting' version and wanted to go back to the original, but the fact that it wasn't the Coke they expected and thought they were buying was exactly the issue that generated the fury. It was an error of branding, not of product.

Its still regarded as one of the world's worst marketing disasters.

Modifié par Wozearly, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .

[DragonRageGT]

much better to listen to the fans than to the metrix which, I've hear, bears some responsibility on the radical (and really bad for me) redesign of Dragon Age games.

Oh, And I too am here since BG. WTH does that mean? If a game is bad IMHO, I will say it. Loud minority would be minority if DA2 had sold twice as much as Origins, not half of it.

[Captain_Obvious]

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2 now I'm "not a real fan." 

[Tommy6860]

txgoldrush wrote...

etherhonky wrote...

if you were a band who had the ability to write great, intricate songs, and you worried what the fans wanted, and you started to change your approach to songwriting everytime someone on your forums complained, your band would be lame.

Devs, of all companies need to stop adjusting their games based upon spazballs who hang out on forums.
i love DAO and i love DA2. some day, if a loud minority made bio care about their opinion, and changed their game philosophies, i would be disappointed.

if the loud minority got their wish, we would be playing "the witcher, origins too"...

and to tell you the truth, i have played and enjoyed DA2 way more than both witchers combined. so bioware is doing something right, maybe not for everyone, but for someone like me who has been here since before Baldur's Gate launched, and everything since, that counts for something...

Mostly right on, however, The Witcher games are much better than both DA games to me. CD Projeckt listens to fans without being slaves to them.

Bioware needs to keep going the direction they want to go and innovate the series, and going back to Dragon Age Origins is the worst thing they can do for me. Its like giving up on me because everything didn't work out as they planned. Plus, except for the repeating and recycled dungeons, DAII's flaws are simply exaggerated, in my opinion, while DAO's are glossed over, also, in my opinion. And really the #1 problem is that the game was rushed, far more than either gameplay or story problems, as far as I am concerned. The way I see it, it was the world design that was responsible for 95% of the games problems.

DAO was so generic and so conservative that it would really kill the series for me to go back to it.

For all of your claims what DAO to DA2 is, you never added in that it *is* that way for *you*, so I fixed your response and highlighted my edits.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:31 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

RageGT wrote...

much better to listen to the fans than to the metrix which, I've hear, bears some responsibility on the radical (and really bad for me) redesign of Dragon Age games.

Oh, And I too am here since BG. WTH does that mean? If a game is bad IMHO, I will say it. Loud minority would be minority if DA2 had sold twice as much as Origins, not half of it.

Exactly, RageGT. Being here from the beginning doesn't mean a thing. I've not been here since BG, but I have played most BW games (including BG). Even if I did not that wouldn't mean my opinion is less valid. If a game is good then I'll mention that. Take it or leave it for what it is. I think that DA2 is not bad, but it is certainly not the best game they have produced. BW wants that feedback, so I'll give it to them in the hope that DA3 will shine again.

[xkg]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Been with Bioware all way  back  days  BG and Icewind dale days and it  does not bother me and I have played both console and PC.  Really  a lot i think is overly dramic Its not like the pulled a Arksys  who took Guilty  Gear from a fighting game to a brawler now that was crazy move   the entinre fighting community was like... "Herp"

So you have been "with Bioware" for so long and you don't know that Icewind Dale isn't a Bioware game ?

[nitefyre410]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2 now I'm "not a real fan." 

 

Exactly the  way some people come  off it as if people who like DA 2 are some how  are not "real" fans and don't anything about BIoware game which is simple not true.    We  all Bioware fans here 

[nitefyre410]

xkg wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Been with Bioware all way  back  days  BG and Icewind dale days and it  does not bother me and I have played both console and PC.  Really  a lot i think is overly dramic Its not like the pulled a Arksys  who took Guilty  Gear from a fighting game to a brawler now that was crazy move   the entinre fighting community was like... "Herp"

So you have been "with Bioware" for so long and you don't know that Icewind Dale isn't a Bioware game ?

You know sir  you are right getting  forgotful in  my old age...  


Hard to remember when both  take place in the sam D&D universe and both play pretty much the same.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .

[dheer]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2 now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

Edit - After reading it all over again, I think you got hung up on the word base. I could have been more clear. Think of it in relation to my post as the people who bought the first game.

Modifié par dheer, 28 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .

[Captain_Obvious]

dheer wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2 now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

Edit - After reading it all over again, I think you got hung up on the word base. I could have been more clear. Think of it in relation to my post as the people who bought the first game.

Oh, I didn't mean your post.  I could have clarified as well.  My bad.

[Huntress]

Aaleel wrote...

Weren't some of the "innovations" made in DA2 from fan feedback from Origins. I'm not understanding point of this topic if the OP liked DA2.

Edit: Also Legacy was a step in the right direction based off fan feedback as well.

Indeed, This "unhappy players" are only lieying to themself I was here, I read the "improvements" they wanted in DA2, they wanted and asked for this changes, combat in DAO was slow, now DA2 combat is too fast and wahaambulance for over 5 months* ( *soon) They asked for VO character because the Warden was a blank sheet, now they whine about the voice not fitting on their small brains..Turn OFF the volume, problem solve!.. wasn't that what you told us when this great idea came out? Now they post every 3-4 days about who is better vo or not.. hello!?? you wanted VO, if it bother you so much turn off the volume. Am very happy with the VO, thanks for asking.

This same players made poll's all over asking players to agree to 2h and sword and  shields only builds, the few of us asking not to were left in the shadow. My prove is, DA2 has NO DW warriors.

They agree with Bioware that removing DW warriors was good they wanted to be unique.. well ^%^& that! I can't play a danm warrior now thanks to them! and yet I do ask the build to be back BUT I don't whine about it, I can use mods to be half rogue-half warrior.

This players asked to remove archmages because they were OP now they whine about how much they miss it.. suck it up princess! You asked for it!

The changes to the elves were catastrophic and yet some people wanted
the elves to be different, even uglier.. well YOU GOT IT now.
I
didn't want aliens elves but I play games in a pc so yeah, I can get
mod's with more appealing elves, not as beautiful as DAO elves, but
close enough.

The fade was too long in DAO, now we hardly remember if we had one, deeproad too long, now it last 17 minutes or less, not one wanted to go from town to town, now they complain about the find an item and bring to X.. WTH you want people!!!, you don't want long quests, long fades or to stick to any character for long, make you're mind!

Sorry I had to get this out of my system.

[nitefyre410]

dheer wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base
happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring
in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the
mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action
rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base
DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus
post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've
been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2
now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

 

You  No - I  find your points well stated 

but  when I hear tearms like  "Console-fication" of DA:2 and how that ruined the game. Are they not pleased with game for something game did wrong  or are they not pleased because Bioware felt like they need to  find a middle ground with both there PC fans and Consoles feeling that it should be one or the other. For the most alot of the  cristism has been well thought out(I may not agree with it all but still respect the opinons).  The sword cuts both ways as well  some Console fans may feel  that  the PC  fans are just being "Exclusionary"  which is not the case for all.    

We Fans  all of us  deserve to have a game we can enjoy and to get that we are as fans make the comprises on what we want in the game when give  Bioware our feed back.


And there is 800 pound gorrilla in the room.

[erynnar]

nitefyre410 wrote...

dheer wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base
happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring
in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the
mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action
rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base
DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus
post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've
been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2
now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

 

You  No - I  find your points well stated 

but  when I hear tearms like  "Console-fication" of DA:2 and how that ruined the game. Are they not pleased with game for something game did wrong  or are they not pleased because Bioware felt like they need to  find a middle ground with both there PC fans and Consoles feeling that it should be one or the other. For the most alot of the  cristism has been well thought out(I may not agree with it all but still respect the opinons).  The sword cuts both ways as well  some Console fans may feel  that  the PC  fans are just being "Exclusionary"  which is not the case for all.    

We Fans  all of us  deserve to have a game we can enjoy and to get that we are as fans make the comprises on what we want in the game when give  Bioware our feed back.


And there is 800 pound gorrilla in the room.

Nope, that's just one of those new genlocks.

On a serious note, We did have a game both consolers and PC players loved, it was called DAO. Why the 180 from it? To get newer and shinier fans, or so one of the stories go.

[billy the squid]

erynnar wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

dheer wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base
happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring
in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the
mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action
rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base
DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus
post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've
been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2
now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

 

You  No - I  find your points well stated 

but  when I hear tearms like  "Console-fication" of DA:2 and how that ruined the game. Are they not pleased with game for something game did wrong  or are they not pleased because Bioware felt like they need to  find a middle ground with both there PC fans and Consoles feeling that it should be one or the other. For the most alot of the  cristism has been well thought out(I may not agree with it all but still respect the opinons).  The sword cuts both ways as well  some Console fans may feel  that  the PC  fans are just being "Exclusionary"  which is not the case for all.    

We Fans  all of us  deserve to have a game we can enjoy and to get that we are as fans make the comprises on what we want in the game when give  Bioware our feed back.


And there is 800 pound gorrilla in the room.

Nope, that's just one of those new genlocks.

On a serious note, We did have a game both consolers and PC players loved, it was called DAO. Why the 180 from it? To get newer and shinier fans, or so one of the stories go.

I'm thinking it was an attempt to either shift to a new market entirely, or they botched their market segmentation analysis and market analysis. Possibly a cost decision made by EA before, DAO became suprisingly succesful.

Modifié par billy the squid, 29 juillet 2011 - 12:30 .

[tfive24]

JrayM16 wrote...

You have to find a balance. It's like waht Realmzmaster said above. Stuff like planet-scanning, it would take a fool to not see how people want that to be removed or at least improved.

The problem with listening to fans is the polarization; how no one can seem to agree what they like/dislike. Sometimes you can almost pin it down, say when you see people lash against the voiced protagonist. THen you find a fair amount of people who like the voiced protagonist. Now you're back to square 1.

Again as Realmzmaster pointed out, people complained about DA:O before it came out. I believe there is a cycle of fan "purging" for lack of a better word. Not by the devs, but by the fans themselves.

Before ME1 came out, people complained that it was a shooter and that it was not KOTOR 3. At least on the ME forums, you'll hardly ever see anyone like that anymore. Instead it's people talking about how ME1 was the friggin second coming and how ME2 was an abomination or something. And while it's too early to see, that may loop back around to ME3, and ME2 will become more popular on the forums. I'm not on the ME forums much, but from what I've seen the criticism of ME2 has cooled down a bit and the ME3 hate has begun.

THe same basic idea applies to DA. Now, we shall see how the future of fan perception pans out. After DA2 was released, the forums reached a critical mass of hatred and flamewars. However, we will not know the truth of DA2's forum legacy until DA3 has been out a while. Will it still be hated? Will it be appreciated more? Or will it be forgotten in liue of hating or loving DA3? Who knows?

Either way, Bioware should take fan feedback seriously, but not be governed by it.

I never complained about Maff Effect 1 or Dragon Age: Origins. Did they have minor problems?, Yes they did, but i didn't want overhaul of their respected sequels. I think the people who complained about me1 and dao probably like both DA2 and ME2. 

[tfive24]

nitefyre410 wrote...

dheer wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

dheer wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
...what
they fail to realize is that you have keep enough old to keep the base
happy while expanding enough to keep the series alive and growing bring
in new fans.

Which is sadly, where the DA team missed the
mark. It may have brought in some new fans looking for another action
rpg with their 180 degree design but it lost a great many of their base
DA fans.

Which is a point where I think some people
are off the mark.  There is not a dichotomy of pre-DA2 fans versus
post-DA2 fans.  What is the requirement for being a "base" fan?  I've
been playing Bioware games for over 10 years, but because I liked DA2
now I'm "not a real fan." 

Try not to read something into what I posted that wasn't there. I just stated that from sales alone, they missed the mark not who is or isn't a "real" fan. I've bought Bioware games since '98. It doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else here.

 

You  No - I  find your points well stated 

but  when I hear tearms like  "Console-fication" of DA:2 and how that ruined the game. Are they not pleased with game for something game did wrong  or are they not pleased because Bioware felt like they need to  find a middle ground with both there PC fans and Consoles feeling that it should be one or the other. For the most alot of the  cristism has been well thought out(I may not agree with it all but still respect the opinons).  The sword cuts both ways as well  some Console fans may feel  that  the PC  fans are just being "Exclusionary"  which is not the case for all.    

We Fans  all of us  deserve to have a game we can enjoy and to get that we are as fans make the comprises on what we want in the game when give  Bioware our feed back.


And there is 800 pound gorrilla in the room.

I'm a console plwyer and i don't like the fact that DA2 is more console focus. I didn't have a problem with the menuss or anything with DA:O . As a console player, I know that PCs are surperior to console. I would prefer a pc port instead of a console focus game. 

[nitefyre410]

erynnar wrote...

*snip
Nope, that's just one of those new genlocks.

On a serious note, We did have a game both consolers and PC players loved, it was called DAO. Why the 180 from it? To get newer and shinier fans, or so one of the stories go.

lol man Darkspawn are just plain ugly either way.   DA:O  or DA 2 that   frakers  just have faces a Broodmomma could love.  
 to
I don't think its a180  more like making a hard 90 degree  and spilling that ice cold beverage you were  drinking.    I hear complaints about the removing of the top down camera,   Darkspawn dropping out of thin are though Spawning  Mobs  is something that has  plagued  Video games years.  See X commentry on how FPS just   Rail shooting gallerys with One room the spawns mods till get  past X point.

Okay ME 2 for instance loved the game It was my saving grace during the East Coast blizzards that year- but the combat made my eye twitch.  Shephard moves like  tank  even with sprint,  melee attack  "Oh dear lord why."  and I have  squad mates the 2 skill spots just empty once again?Why.  Yet  everybody LOVES it. Does the mean I think  ME 2 is a terrible game no , does that mean that I think anyone who likes changes is out there... nope.  ME 2 is great and I am gearing  to do my three cannon runs through before  for  ME 3 drops..  

But It looks they are going to find a nice middle ground with ME 3 in terms of combat and there is no reason to think they won't  do the same  with  DA future installments.

[FieryDove]

nitefyre410 wrote...

 Shephard moves like  tank  even with sprint,  melee attack  "Oh dear lord why."  and I have  squad mates the 2 skill spots just empty once again?Why.  Yet  everybody LOVES it.

Not everybody.

On topic sort of...
Ah yes fans, we have dismissed that claim.

If the developers did listen to everyone a game may never get finished not to mention be 10 TB's big. But it could get awards in every category because it was an action rpg/shooter/sports/driving/adventure/rts/tbs/flying game all rolled into one.

[txgoldrush]

Tommy6860 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

etherhonky wrote...

if you were a band who had the ability to write great, intricate songs, and you worried what the fans wanted, and you started to change your approach to songwriting everytime someone on your forums complained, your band would be lame.

Devs, of all companies need to stop adjusting their games based upon spazballs who hang out on forums.
i love DAO and i love DA2. some day, if a loud minority made bio care about their opinion, and changed their game philosophies, i would be disappointed.

if the loud minority got their wish, we would be playing "the witcher, origins too"...

and to tell you the truth, i have played and enjoyed DA2 way more than both witchers combined. so bioware is doing something right, maybe not for everyone, but for someone like me who has been here since before Baldur's Gate launched, and everything since, that counts for something...

Mostly right on, however, The Witcher games are much better than both DA games to me. CD Projeckt listens to fans without being slaves to them.

Bioware needs to keep going the direction they want to go and innovate the series, and going back to Dragon Age Origins is the worst thing they can do for me. Its like giving up on me because everything didn't work out as they planned. Plus, except for the repeating and recycled dungeons, DAII's flaws are simply exaggerated, in my opinion, while DAO's are glossed over, also, in my opinion. And really the #1 problem is that the game was rushed, far more than either gameplay or story problems, as far as I am concerned. The way I see it, it was the world design that was responsible for 95% of the games problems.

DAO was so generic and so conservative that it would really kill the series for me to go back to it.

For all of your claims what DAO to DA2 is, you never added in that it *is* that way for *you*, so I fixed your response and highlighted my edits.

ever heard of editorals....

thats how I write, get used to it.

[snackrat]

I feel like what REALLY hurt Bioware was the time constraints. They didn't have enough time to do market research, extensive environmental modelling, ACTUAL QUESTS instead of just giving out junk and excessive enemy spawning etc.... given a couple more years, and the chance for more detail, Dragon Age 2 wouldn't have gottens o much flak.

[nitefyre410]

FieryDove wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

 Shephard moves like  tank  even with sprint,  melee attack  "Oh dear lord why."  and I have  squad mates the 2 skill spots just empty once again?Why.  Yet  everybody LOVES it.

Not everybody.

On topic sort of...
Ah yes fans, we have dismissed that claim.

If the developers did listen to everyone a game may never get finished not to mention be 10 TB's big. But it could get awards in every category because it was an action rpg/shooter/sports/driving/adventure/rts/tbs/flying game all rolled into one.

  


hyperbole  I know. 

Turain Councilmans  air  quotes...  God I want shoot him repeatedly  for that..

back on topic.

you are absolutly right  making perfect game  is  like making the  philosphers stone   it could be made  but it  would  cost the entire population of a small obscure  country.