2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartanburger]

Fixers0 wrote...

And you make statment out of what?

If any object in the Mass Effect universe is called A kinetic barrier, I look up the codex an see if that  it's description match the effect that is shown in game, if so then everything is okay, if not then it in inconsistent with the Codex. 

It's rarely mentined in game what actually is a kinetic barrier. That vacuum seal? Not mentioned. The only time Barriers are mentioned is during the initial attack when the Normandy's barriers were taken down, the derelict reaper mission and the suicide mission.

[Fixers0]

Spartanburger wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

And you make statment out of what?

If any object in the Mass Effect universe is called A kinetic barrier, I look up the codex an see if that  it's description match the effect that is shown in game, if so then everything is okay, if not then it in inconsistent with the Codex. 

It's rarely mentined in game what actually is a kinetic barrier. That vacuum seal? Not mentioned. The only time Barriers are mentioned is during the initial attack when the Normandy's barriers were taken down, the derelict reaper mission and the suicide mission.

What is a Kinetic barrier?

Everything that is either called ''Kinetic barier'' or that is called ''shields''.

Modifié par Fixers0, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[maddenking2010]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I volunteer the dwarf planet, Pluto, to make the ultimate sacrifice.

What does that even mean?

Using Pluto to slam into the Charon Relay of course.

Also, why is the coding on this forum such a chore?

I often wonder that myself.

you know thats interesting, destroy the mass relay so the reapers cant get there, but cut off humanity form the rest of galactic civilization (and other human colonies) that would be one hell of a choice

[Sgt Stryker]

The Codex is not the only source of information on the MEverse. You have to take into account in-game cutscenes as well. The two are supplementary.

Getting back to kinetic barriers, why would someone design a military-grade shield that cannot be adjusted? What if for example, you're fighting natives armed with bows and arrows, and you need to dial down the threshold so that your kinetic barrier will stop those arrows, but will still let you hold onto your rifle?

Why the hell are we talking about toxins, anyway? Your original question was how did Joker survive the Normandy ambush at the beginning of ME2, if I recall correctly.

[Spartanburger]

Fixers0 wrote...


Really, the Codex explicitly states that Kinetic barriers do not protect against toxins,deal with it. 

And as mentioned COUNTLESS times before, we are talking about a Mass effect field in keeping out the vacuum of space, not a kinetic barrier that repels high-velocity rounds.

The fact that a Kinetic Barrier cannot prevent the transference of toxins does not mean that a Mass effect field could not either.

Also, I ask again. Why did you suddenly shift from whether or not Kinetic barriers are ME fields and if Kinteic barriers could stop a vacuum to the subjct of toxins?

[Fixers0]

Spartanburger wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


Really, the Codex explicitly states that Kinetic barriers do not protect against toxins,deal with it. 

And as mentioned COUNTLESS times before, we are talking about a Mass effect field in keeping out the vacuum of space, not a kinetic barrier that repels high-velocity rounds.

The fact that a Kinetic Barrier cannot prevent the transference of toxins does not mean that a Mass effect field could not either.

Also, I ask again. Why did you suddenly shift from whether or not Kinetic barriers are ME fields and if Kinteic barriers could stop a vacuum to the subjct of toxins?

I Don't recall myself saying that Kinetic barriers aren't Mass Effect fields.

[LOLandStuff]

Destroying the Alpha Relay didn't stop the Reapers. So why would blowing up the Charon Relay stop them? You think they'll run out of fuel or feel too annoyed to have fly another long way to Earth?

"Oh noes. Shepard destroyed another Relay. Whatever shall we do now?"
"I don't feel like FTL'ing 'til there."
"Me neither."

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

At the same time, using enough Alliance Carriers (stripped as bare as possible and running with skeleton crews) to propel a massive object, like Pluto or another nearby Kuiper Belt object, into the Charon Relay to detonate.

This could take months. Do you really think the Reapers will stand by and let you do that? Assuming you even succeed there is a good chance you won't kill a single Reaper with it. It won't improve your odds either. Earth will just be the first of countless garden worlds put to the sword.

Hmm... selective attention I see, I guess the word "possible" is all you need to dismiss the plan wholesale <_<



So you know there are many objects in the Kuiper Belt. Check out these illustrations. The first shows where Neptune is and how Pluto orbits today, which changed when the Relay was activated.






This is the in-game map, and shows where the Relay is, basically inside or at least on the edge of the Kuiper Belt. So the Alliance can pick and choose which object they would send flying at the Relay. And don't forget Newton's Laws, the Carriers do not necessarily have to be lost either.





And you're saying that the Reapers are simply going to shrug off a supernova level explosion also?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova | www.youtube.com/watch

Start video at ~2:00 to see the Relay detonate and watch the radius of the blast: www.youtube.com/watch

[Sgt Stryker]

Saphra Deden wrote...

maddenking2010 wrote...

you know thats interesting, destroy the mass relay so the reapers cant get there, but cut off humanity form the rest of galactic civilization (and other human colonies) that would be one hell of a choice

Destroying the Charon relay wouldn't cut off most of humanity.

No, it would just incinerate them.

[Spartanburger]

Fixers0 wrote...
What is a Kinetic barrier?

Are you seriously asking this?
You yourself quoted the bloody codex entry. I assume you read it?

Jesus...
"Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters."

Fixers0 wrote...
Everything that is either called ''Kinetic barier'' or that is called ''shields''.

Once again, thank you captain obvious.

"Kinetic barriers, commonly called shields..."

Everything is called KB or shields simply because that's what they are.
The mass effect field vacuum seal is not mentioned in game.

[Sgt Stryker]

Spartanburger wrote...
The mass effect field vacuum seal is not mentioned in game.

It's not mentioned in dialogue, but it is seen in cutscenes (Citadel docking bay in ME1, emergency fields activated by the Normandy SR1 and SR2 at the beginning and end of ME2), and supported by a Codex entry.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:10 .

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

And you make statment out of what?

If any object in the Mass Effect universe is called A kinetic barrier, I look up the codex an see if that  it's description match the effect that is shown in game, if so then everything is okay, if not then it in inconsistent with the Codex. 

Defenses Kinetic Barriers

The Normandy is equipped with a standard system of kinetic barrier shielding. Kinetic barriers are specialized mass effect fields that halt incoming projectiles. They are ineffective against extremes of heat or radiation, such as lasers and particle weapons.Multicore shielding utilizing Cyclonic Barrier Technology (CBT) can be refitted to the Normandy SR-2 (Upgrade, Cost: 15,000 Palladium). The CBT violently slaps aside rather than halting incoming linear force. By rotationally firing their mass effect field projectors, the ship creates rapidly oscillating kinetic barriers instead of static ones. Shooting through the CBT is like trying to shoot at a target inside a spinning ball. If an emitter is damaged, the CBT corrects to become a traditional shield array, a safety feature that makes it most effective during opening volleys.

Point is that there are different kind of barriers, and that they are adjustable. Alterable.

It's what Joker is doing inside the debris field when he tell EDI to reroute power to them. He adjusts the shield.

Get a clue.

[Fixers0]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Codex is not the only source of information on the MEverse. You have to take into account in-game cutscenes as well. The two are supplementary.

Getting back to kinetic barriers, why would someone design a military-grade shield that cannot be adjusted? What if for example, you're fighting natives armed with bows and arrows, and you need to dial down the threshold so that your kinetic barrier will stop those arrows, but will still let you hold onto your rifle?

Why the hell are we talking about toxins, anyway? Your original question was how did Joker survive the Normandy ambush at the beginning of ME2, if I recall correctly.

Because nothing in the game ever mentiond that this (or not) the case,

I base all my information on the codex and experiance from the game, you on  the other hand invent things up based on unknows and partiantly your own imagination, if the codex gives a clear description of what kinetic barriers are, then who are you to disagree with this.

if something ingame which is a kinetic barrier suddenly reacts differntly then it should without further explanation, then it is a contradiction with the codex.

 

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

And you make statment out of what?

If any object in the Mass Effect universe is called A kinetic barrier, I look up the codex an see if that  it's description match the effect that is shown in game, if so then everything is okay, if not then it in inconsistent with the Codex. 

Defenses Kinetic Barriers

The Normandy is equipped with a standard system of kinetic barrier shielding. Kinetic barriers are specialized mass effect fields that halt incoming projectiles. They are ineffective against extremes of heat or radiation, such as lasers and particle weapons.Multicore shielding utilizing Cyclonic Barrier Technology (CBT) can be refitted to the Normandy SR-2 (Upgrade, Cost: 15,000 Palladium). The CBT violently slaps aside rather than halting incoming linear force. By rotationally firing their mass effect field projectors, the ship creates rapidly oscillating kinetic barriers instead of static ones. Shooting through the CBT is like trying to shoot at a target inside a spinning ball. If an emitter is damaged, the CBT corrects to become a traditional shield array, a safety feature that makes it most effective during opening volleys.

Point is that there are different kind of barriers, and that they are adjustable. Alterable.

It's what Joker is doing inside the debris field when he tell EDI to reroute power to them. He adjusts the shield.

Get a clue.

I might remind you though that this comes after the codex entry,

And just because they can still doesn't prove that there are kinetic barriers are upgraded to protect against radiaton, because we never see one. (example)

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

I might remind you though that this comes after the codex entry,

And just because they can still doesn't prove that there are kinetic barriers are upgraded to protect against radiaton, because we never see one. (example)

And I need to remind you that I have never stated that kinetic barriers (AKA shields, in case you didn't get it the first time) are protecting against radiation.

And guess what. Going by your logic, the codex ends after the very first entry. Everything else is invalid. But that's not how a codex works. Things can be added. Things are added. 

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:23 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Fixers0 wrote...

Because nothing in the game ever mentiond that this (or not) the case,

I base all my information on the codex and experiance from the game, you on  the other hand invent things up based on unknows and partiantly your own imagination, if the codex gives a clear description of what kinetic barriers are, then who are you to disagree with this.

if something ingame which is a kinetic barrier suddenly reacts differntly then it should without further explanation, then it is a contradiction with the codex.

The Codex cannot be expected to explain every aspect of ME lore, just as Wikipedia does not explain all aspects of our own world. The gaps occasionally need to filled in with our own imagination and common sense. It makes more sense for the military to use kinetic barrier generators that can be adjusted for numerous situations and environments, rather than having one fixed device that may not work well under certain circumstances. Just because the Codex makes no mention of adjustable kinetic barriers, does not mean that all kinetic barriers work under one configuration only.

Just out of curiousity, since you claim to be such a devout Codex worshipper, what do you think of this? Yes, this is an exact transcript of an ME1 Codex entry.

Edit: Why do you keep talking about radiation and toxins? No, kinetic barriers do not block either of those. No, they are not relevant to your original question, regarding Joker's ability to survive vacuum exposure. Protip: A vacuum is neither radiation, nor a toxin.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:28 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I know what the Kuiper Belt is and I know what objects are in it. What is your point? Changing the directory of one of those objects would be very time consuming and resource intensive. "The Project" was at it for a while and were eventually caught. You can bet that after the Alpha Relay incident the Reapers will be on the look-out for this tactic. In the end it harms us more than it does them anyway since the Reapers aren't nearly as dependent on the relays as we are.

Don't forget Asteroid X57. And Kenson's Project was working under the radar with spare parts, because they were in Batarian space, so I think they can certainly meet the time constraint in this scenario.

Harms us more? They're turning us into goo.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

And you're saying that the Reapers are simply going to shrug off a supernova level explosion also?

No, I'm not. Go and read my first post again.

The Reapers won't shrug off the explosion; they'll avoid it. They can communicate at faster than light speeds, instantaneously. A single Reaper can warn them of the imminent catastrophe and give the others time to flee.

What, move at FTL from the planet's surface?
It took Sovereign a while to leave Eden Prime, I doubt that the rest are more limber.

And I can't see them as being omnipotent, even with quantum entanglement.

So, although they can move fast because of their cores, how could they be faster then a supernova's explosion?
And a supernova has a large blast radius.
So I wouldn't be surprised if the Reapers would detonate their cores as they get caught in the blast for a nice chain reaction.



And you presented the hypothetical of using quantum entanglement in the OP. QEC is a one-to-one communication system. The Reapers would need one QEC for each Reaper link to have something seemless with that tech. To control a few minions here and there, sure it's plausible.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safeto assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.

Edit: Darn copy paste

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:39 .

[Someone With Mass]

And people are going by the assumption that the energy of the supernova won't affect communications in any way.

[Praetor Knight]

Yes, your first post is a no-win scenario, so we must join the reapers.

You say consumed by Reaper Tech. Well, we have Mass Relays, the Citadel, Mass Effect Cores, Thanix cannons that do not seem to hold negative consequences.

And AI's are already known to be dangerous, so the concern is any Reaper Tech that can indoctrinate and husk-ify.

Saphra Deden wrote...

WE CAN'T HOPE TO BEAT THE REAPERS IN A WAR


Let me give you a run down of why.

Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.

Codex: Space Combat

Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.

Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.

There is a key difference between us and the Reapers though. Any enemy we fight will, somewhere, have some sort of planet/moon/asteroid based assets to defend. Thus we can assault their planets to earn a victory if we must.

With the Reapers however this is not so. They have no planetary assets that they must defend. The Reapers are self sufficient, space-borne intelligences. It has been pointed out that they want the Earth and while this may be true, I guarantee you that they want their own continual survival even more than that. Assuming we successfully rally the galaxy to come and get their people killed to save our planet this offers no promise of victory against the Reapers. As soon as they realize the battle is turning against them (assuming that it does and that they don't just
obliterate every fleet in the galaxy), the Reapers will flee.

They'll fly up, abandon the Earth, and disappear in to the vast Milky Way galaxy. Maybe some aliens will get smart and blow up the Charon relay, isolating the Reapers in our cluster. This might buy the galaxy some time, but they'll never have any hope of winning the war.

The thing is, the Reapers don't need to capture any planets besides Earth. All they have to do is drop in out of FTL near a planet and bombard all of its inhabitants into ash. They can do this again and again on every populated world in the galaxy until none remain.

Whether it takes decades or centuries in time every race in the galaxy will be exterminated and any human survivors will be cultivated into a new Reaper.

The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safeto assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.

Now, assuming this isn't necessary and Shepard discovers some miracle that can defeat the Reapers, it will still be a hollow victory in some respects. The inescapable fact is that we will ALL BE CONSUMED BY REAPER TECH ANYWAY! Their technology will not vanish, it will instead be laying around for everyone in the galaxy to scoop up and reverse engineer. Terrifying things like indoctrination and quantum-entaglement devices will proliferate throughout the galaxy. One way or another, we will all become Reapers.

I doubt that the Reapers would feel that threatened by "lesser beings", and Space Combat will be a concern for the Wolf Pack flotillas that would attempt engaging the Reapers.

The thing is if they Reapers are on Earth or at least only in the Sol system, a nice portion of their forces can be destroyed. And provide a battle plan for this Total War of survival against the Reapers.

So when the Reapers move en masse into another system, then we detonate that relay. The key is sacrifice for survival. It's a tough job but if our weapons can't stop them something has to.

And Sovereign was defeated, so they are not invincible either.

I'm guessing that Shepard will find something that will work, since we know so little about Reapers right now.

WE MUST JOIN WITH THE REAPERS

It is our (humanity's) only hope. When we lose Earth we will lose most of humanity, leaving too few humans to build a new Reaper with. We'll be stranded in a hostile and callous galaxy that will be eagerly working to reverse engineer Reaper technologies and their much larger and healtheir economies will ensure that they succeed long before we do (even with the Collector base). As they unlock the secrets of Reaper tech they will join in union with it
and change... becoming unrecognizable to us and at that point they may do whatever they want with us. Our fate will be beyond our control.

Joining with the Reapers now, while they can still create a Reaper for us, is our only hope. It is a not a fate I'd have ever wished for humanity, but it is one we can choose for ourselves, even if reluctantly, as opposed to one left up to outsiders. I think the Illusive Man and Cerberus understand this and this is why they have decided to join the Reapers.

The war was lost as soon as the Reapers descended upon the cradle of our species.

However we will survive, we will continue. Our legacy will not end.

Humanity will be reborn, unified at last in a single form, many voices, but a single mind, a single will.

A nation, sovereign, free of all weakness, and... eternal.

And this section is why I even bothered to bring up a scenario that can defeat at least a good portion of their fleet, one solar system at a time. This is Total War against the Reapers as I said earlier.



And why do you assume we aren't reading your posts?