2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Wynne]

There has never been a more obvious case of indoctrination than the OP.

No way. The Protheans survived, they're hiding on Zayarter, they've been working underground to create anti-Reaper weaponry for the past 50,000 years or so, and once we lure them out of their safety they will help us kick serious ass. That's my theory, anyway.

Otherwise, Mordin will save the universe. Even if he's dead, because he's just that awesome.

[Unpleasant Implications]

"We fight or we die! That's the plan." A quote from either the greatest, bravest soldier known to the galaxy, or a suicidal fool, depending on whether or not you win. Either way, "However insignificant we may be, we will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find a way! That's what humans do."

[frostajulie]

Unpleasant Implications wrote...

"We fight or we die! That's the plan." A quote from either the greatest, bravest soldier known to the galaxy, or a suicidal fool, depending on whether or not you win. Either way, "However insignificant we may be, we will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find a way! That's what humans do."

Quoted for awesome

Did anyone else here this in arrival and feel uplifted?  Made me proud to be human. Made me want to live up to it.  I know its cheesy but thats good writing. Especially the way Hale delivers the speech. Good stuff

[sympathy4saren]

The OP has many inaccuracies in his statements, but I agree we can't be the Reapers in a direct battle. Sorry, but they would annihilate us

[Sisterofshane]

 @ Saphra : It is a well thought out argument, but I will have to disagree on a least several points of yours.

Eingana was poisoned, as I believe, as it was not yet colonized when all of those Mass Effect Cores were spread about the planets surface.  Had there been someone there to clean it up, I believe that the effects to the environment would have been minimal, at best.  I don't think that Eezo is so toxic that it would have immediately effected the environment of Eingana in such a way.  It would have had to sit on the surface of the planet for sometime to cause such widespread extinction.  If Eezo had been that toxic to organic life, then the civilizations of the galaxy would not use it in their technology, or use it in such a limited way that it would be useless to the reapers.  Also, there were no ill effects upon the Citadel when Sovereign  exploded all over the wards.  I would think that any ill effects that would be caused by  brief Eezo exposure would be mentioned in the games lore ... such as it's effects in utero.  Besides, if humanity and it's allies manage to destroy that many Reapers above or on Earth, then our technology has advanced such that I doubt cleaning up Eezo on our planet's surface would really be a problem.

As far as indoctrination goes, doesn't the Reaper have to be capable of transmitting the energy field or signal in order for indoctrination to take place?  If said Reaper has been blown to kingdom come, it shouldn't be able to transmit anything.  And the derelict Reaper doesn't really count, becaused it was merely disabled, not completely destroyed like Sovereign.  It was able to continue it's transmissions, even though it could no longer move.  Kind of like sitting in a junk car that still has a working battery -- I can still listen to the radio but  I won't able to turn over the engine.  So, unless the pieces of the Reapers scattered about Earth were used to build/rebuild Reapers or Reaper artifacts, I don't think there would be a problem.  To top it off, if we do defeat the Reapers and save the galaxy, then what are the indoctrinated going to do?  Continue to fight to Reaperize humanity?  Well, let them try -- at that point I do not think they will succeed.

As for Earth, maybe it is lost.  I can't say for certain, but it looks like ME3 will start off with the Reapers coordinating a full-out attack on Earth.  Whether they are attacking full force or spreading out their forces, I can't say either because I don't know how many Reapers are out there nor if they feel that they have adequate numbers to spread themselves out with such tatics.  But losing Earth does not neccesarily mean that Humanity is lost.  All we would need at that point is a sustainable population, and I think we can argue that we have that amongst all of our colonies.  And we still have our Ace up our sleeve - Shepard.  If Shepard can unite the races of the galaxy, and Earth can hold out just long enough for the galaxy to amass a  fleet, then we can surround the Reaper fleet from all sides and they will have to fight to escape Earth.  Whether that fight would be in vain, I choose not to say.  While one Reaper was a force to be reckoned with, It would have never succeeded in it's attempt to attack the Citidel without the fleet of Geth behind it, and with the advances in technology since then (think EDI, Thannix Cannons), as well as removing the Reapers element of surprise, who's to say that the galaxy doesn't at least stand a fighting chance! Even if we are only able to make them retreat, then we gain the benefit of time and planning to thwart off future attacks. 

I don't believe that they will just hop from planet to planet, destroying everything in their wake.  While one of their goals is the extinction of organic life, another of their goals is to assimilate them and harvest their resources.  It's reasonable to assume that as machines, that they still need fuel sources in order to survive, and perhaps even massive fuel sources.  Perhaps that is why they need to destroy organics in the first place, and one of the perks of doing it the way they have for millenia is that in addition to making it easier on themselves, they have the benefit of using the technology from the advanced races to possibly make themselves more efficient.

All in all, I think I would fight.  Even if I was the only human left.  After watching what happened to Lillith, and then talking to Kelly afterwards, it does not sound like some gentle assimilation to transcend our natural organic selves.  It sounds like a very torturousand painful violation of the very thing that makes up our human legacy - our diversity and our individualality.  

[redbaron76]

You left out one important fact. Reapers will not retreat, even if they are losing. They are machines, incapable of retreat since their programing only allows them to leave galaxy only after they have completed the cycle of destruction. And we can defeat them. We can use computer worms or viruses to disable shields and their cores and destroy them.

[crimzontearz]

totally...because Bioware is DEFINITELY gonna give us that ending......

sorry, this is delusional

[Sisterofshane]

@crimsontearz I wouldn't so much mind if that was one of MANY possible endings -- like the suicide mission! Total and complete failure!

[crimzontearz]

SoS....I agree but having that ending shoved down my throat? no thanks

[sympathy4saren]

Saphra Deden wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

The OP has many inaccuracies in his statements,

Elaborate.

We couldn't just destroy the Charon relay to wipe out the Reapers. Not if they are on Earth, I'm not sure of the precise math, but light itself takes several minutes to travel from the Sun to Earth. It is very much further from Earth to Pluto than 93 million miles, and since the explosion would have mass, it wouldn't be going the speed of light, but much slower.

Even if the Reapers saw the explosion at the last second, all of them would go into instantaneous faster than light speed to get away.

Humanity's options, too, in defeat aren't limited to joining them. We'd most likely ourselves be reprogrammed into Collector like beings or all melted down into a human Reaper.

A more viable option, imo, is death.

And since the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution and have been doing this for millions if not billions of years, we are in deep, deep trouble.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:36 .

[Sgt Stryker]

redbaron76 wrote...

You left out one important fact. Reapers will not retreat, even if they are losing. They are machines, incapable of retreat since their programing only allows them to leave galaxy only after they have completed the cycle of destruction. And we can defeat them. We can use computer worms or viruses to disable shields and their cores and destroy them.

I highly doubt their programming (if programming is even an accurate term for the Reapers) is that simplistic. Reapers are highly sophisticated biosynthetic artificial intelligences, not mindless automatons like the LOKI mechs.

[100k]

Hold O to take the cowards way out.

[redbaron76]

You seem to forget that citadels hull was breached when sovereign crashed into citadel so yes some element ziro could get ingto the station.

[redbaron76]

Programing like worms and viruses would even affect advanced AI like reapers, you seem to miss that reaper virus disconeted EDI from defences of normandy.

[Sgt Stryker]

Worms and viruses may be just another tool in our toolbox, along with fleets and armies, but I doubt they will be a magic bullet against the enemy.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 28 juillet 2011 - 02:45 .

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...



I'm sorry, but that's just silly. Oil is toxic to most life but we still use it. Toxicity has nothing to do with it. We use eezo because we have no choice. It is the only way to create and manipulate mass effect fields. It's what makes FTL possible.

Why is that silly?  Your entire first paragraph in the original post was that the Eezo from the Mass Effect Cores would be so toxic to the planet that any effort to use the planet would be in vain.  I am disputing the validity of the toxicity argument,  so for you to do so in the above quote means that you are arguing against yourself.  Of course we use oil, and we would use Eezo in the exact same matter were it real because the benefits would outwiegh the risks.  And, to your argument, just like oil if there is some sort of catastrophic accident, it would simply be a matter of cleaning it up, like we did with the Exxon- Valdeez.  If it were otherwise and the benefits (FTL drive) could NOT outwiegh the risks (Mass, widespread EXTINCTION) , then there would be no game because there would be no such thing as Mass Effect.  So, as I argued originally, to say that the eezo would corrupt our planet beyond usability  is what is actually silly, since game lore and real life prove otherwise.  So don't tell me it's that  toxic because if it was truly capable of widespread extinction of Earth even if we were to intervene then we wouldn't use it.

Saphra Deden wrote...
OH MY GOD! 

I have been over this!

The Citadel is a space sation! The entire thing is sealed against the outside envirnoment of space. So of-course no or very little eezo would have made its way to the wards where civilians could be exposed to it. The station is sealed against vacuum by air-locks, mass effect fields, and atmosphere. This is not comparable at all to a planet.

*Disparaging remark*

Yes, it is sealed, but with the same fields and shields as I put on my armor.  A space ship can fly through it, Shepard can walk through one ( as evidenced by ME2 when he/she goes to the cockpit to rescue Joker) and according to the codex entry, my butt can feel the seat of my chair through one.  It is not completely inconcievable that SOLID pieces of eezo could pass through all of that and end up in a populated area of the citadel.  And I wan't able to find anywhere that the Citadel itself has an atmosphere, or a mixture of pressurized gases that are able to seal in area.  Even if it had, the eezo managed to get to the planet Eingana, so it sould also have done so on the Citadel.  The largest piece of evidence by far was Anderson telling Shepard that pieces of it  (the ship) rained down all over the station.  So to say in your argument that a reaper would have enough eezo to toxify a planet but then say that none of that eezo could have possibly made it to populated areas of the citadel in such a close quarters combat situation although all evidence in YOUR  ORIGINAL argument points to otherwise makes no sense.

So, as it's more likely than NOT that eezo made it onto the citadel and nothing remarkable happened, It is safe to say that we shouldn't worry about eezo raining down on earth and we should kill AS MANY REAPERS AS POSSIBLE!.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

As far as indoctrination goes, doesn't the Reaper have to be capable of transmitting the energy field or signal in order for indoctrination to take place?

Nobody even knows exactly how it works or what it is.

According to the Wiki (not saying it's a perfect source but it's a source) and to Rana Thanoptis ( in game), the ships transmits this signal ( not clear if it's a signal or energy field or what have you but the point being that we are sure that it is transmitting something...)so, the best I can figure is that if it can no longer transmit then indocrination would not be a problem  from the individual pieces.  I don't think it's been shown in game but I don't think pieces of a Reaper have ever indoctrinated anyone, it has almost always been working pieces of Reaper technology.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

//looks at Saphra Deden... looks at Saren...

//rubs chin and nods

[Praetor Knight]

sympathy4saren wrote...

We couldn't just destroy the Charon relay to wipe out the Reapers. Not if they are on Earth, I'm not sure of the precise math, but light itself takes several minutes to travel from the Sun to Earth. It is very much further from Earth to Pluto than 93 million miles, and since the explosion would have mass, it wouldn't be going the speed of light, but much slower.

Even if the Reapers saw the explosion at the last second, all of them would go into instantaneous faster than light speed to get away.

It should take approximately six hours for the shockwave to hit Earth from the Charon Relay, estimating from what we know from this Codex entry. Any mass would lag behind the front of the shockwave.

I too have been wondering about how soon could the Reapers enter FTL speeds.

That matters most for any Reaper on Earth, because they would have to generate a lot of energy under those circumstances to escape gravity, as well as depend on what Reapers use for thrust.

So they can hit FTL with their cores, the question is how fast and far is that gonna take them away from Earth, and away from that Shockwave?

FTL Drive

Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistic time dilation effects.

Starships still require conventional thrusters (chemical rockets, commercial fusion torch, economy ion engine, or military antiproton drive) in addition to the FTL drive core. With only a core, a ship has no motive power.

The amount of element zero and power required for a drive increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive.

If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.

And here's some more info so we could imagine what blowing up the relay means to the solar system:

Most (99%) of the energy of a [Supernova explosion] SNe is released in the form of energetic neutrinos; the remaining energy is converted into kinetic energy, accelerating the stellar material to speeds greater than the speed of sound and causing a shock wave to move outwards from the central star. The high velocity stellar material plows outwards into the ISM, compressing and heating ambient gas and sweeping it up much as a snow plow compacts and sweeps up snow. The ISM becomes enriched with the stellar material blown off in the explosion. The expanding material, and any additional material the blast collects as it travels through the interstellar medium, forms a supernova remnant (SNR). From here: Introduction to Supernova Remnants

This gif below is very similar to what we see in Arrival so it is potent, and I wonder what will happen to any Reaper near that shockwave.


Gif from here: heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/snr.html

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I am disputing the validity of the toxicity argument,

Does Einganna not exist then? Did I make it up or what? If you don't believe me about that then what about the exposures caused by Cerberus over human colonies? In each case that was just one ship and yet it still killed thousands via cancers, terminal diseases, birth defects, and still births.

What does it take for you to believe that eezo is toxic?

Perhaps that sentence should have read "I am disputing the validity of your original toxicity argument".  Then maybe it would not have been so easy for you to try to spin my words in such a manner that it would seem that I am arguing something that I am not. 
I never said that eezo wasn't toxic.  But the only numbers I see related to the game are that 30% of children born after eezo exposure exhibit the worst side effects, being tumors and cancer and still births.  That's in addition to the roughly 10 percent of kids that develop biotics.  If we do the math, that's about 60 percent who are unaffected by eezo exposure.  And really, it only affects developing fetuses.  Pretty sure that all the pregnant women on earth aren't going to hang around wating for a Reaper to be destroyed so that they can be exposed when there is a FULL SCALE INVASION going on.  Most of them are going to be either evacuated or killed.  Not that I'm not sympathetic to that -- I am mother and I would be devasted if it happened to me.  But it just doesn't sound as bad as letting everyone I know go through the horrible process of becoming a Reaper.

Back to the orignal argument, that it would be better to be HARVESTED and REAPERIZED as opposed to fight back, I once again have to disagree.  Even if every pregnant woman was exposed to this eezo at the time, in my opinion the losses would be more acceptable, then say, the extinction of every race in the galaxy.

Saphr Deden wrote...



Keep in mind here Reapers have huge mass effect drives and that means liteeral tons of refined element zero falling down to the Earth.

Cleaning it up isn't so easy. We aren't talking about an isolated spill originating from one single origin. This would be like having oil spills all over the Earth at once. Every port, every sea, every bay, every river. Then on land as well.

It can all be cleaned up, in time (or work its way too deep into the soil or the bottom of the ocean where its effect may be minimal), but it will take years.

But it can be done.  And, were we to win this war, who's to say that the other races wouldn't help, with them being so thankful that we saved the galaxy from anhiliation.  So, Earth would not be a total loss -- thus invalidating one of your arguments as to why we should not try to fight the Reapers.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Rana Thanoptis ( in game), the ships transmits this signal...

That was her theory or the best way she could describe it. Remember also that she said the "signal" was undetectable. If we can't even detect it then we can't be too certain of what it actually is. A signal of some kind is likely, but being unable to detect means it is far beyond our ability to manipulate at this time.

Yes, but also remember what I said after that, that so far in the game(s), books, etc., there has been no instance of anyone being indoctrinated from pieces of exploded Reapers.  The Reaper (or artifact, for that matter) has always been intact enough that it could still be considered "working".  Also, if I remeber right, the Reaper is able to transmit this signal pretty much at will -- if it was just running all of the time then it would face the problem of having of the indoctrinated being unable to think for itself.  The Reaper needs to adjust this so that it gets the appropriate level of usefulness to indoctrination. So, I'm thinking that Reaper "dust"  (Anhilated Reapers ) probably don't have enough control to commit the act of indoctrination ( whether it be a signal or whatever else).

[Rahmiel]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I rather have only 1 ending that is both consistant lore and that is supported by logic the 10 endings full off ' coolsz bros dudz'' crap.

True to the lore? You broke that lore the second you started to play the games.

And lore =/= good content. Not always.

I never broke the lore, i'm not the designer, but feel free to ask your friends at bioware how the manage do it so many times without realising it.

And please explain me what the point is of establishing the lore if you're not going to hold on to it?

Welcome to the realm of science Fantasy.

Fixed.

Wait wait wait.. Fixers0 did you just imply that fiction =/= fantasy?  That science fiction is not science fantasy?

Do you believe that fiction is somehow different from fantasy?

[MGIII]

100k wrote...

Hold O to take the cowards way out.

Silly goose, ME1 isn't for PS3.

The OP is right with one thing: if we do defeat the Reapers, we will eventually become bio-synthetics ourselves, unless an alternate and superior evolution path is discovered.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:08 .