2463 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Memmahkth wrote...


Wait wait wait.. Fixers0 did you just imply that fiction =/= fantasy?  That science fiction is not science fantasy?

Do you believe that fiction is somehow different from fantasy?

Actually, the term "science fantasy" is pretty common and is used as something distinct from "science fiction". There are no hard and fast rules as to how to make the distinction, but some examples might help.  Since we're on a game forum, I'll use games:


Deus Ex? Science Fiction.
Phantasy Star?  Science Fantasy.


Does it make total sense when you think about the meaning of the individual words in both terms?  No, but that's just how language is.  As far as the argument Fixers0 is trying to make, however....it's nonsense.  Consistency or the lack thereof is not a distinguishing characteristic of science fantasy.  Especially when a lot (if not most) of the "lore" inconsistencies that he's b!tching about are actually just gameplay elements.  Not to mention, he seems to think "science fantasy" is some sort of pejorative when it's actually just a fictional genre, neither bad nor good in and of itself.

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:51 .

[darklordpocky-san]

yay

game where you always lose!

[Vanaer]

Saphra Deden = Jack Harper?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

MGIII wrote...

100k wrote...

Hold O to take the cowards way out.

Silly goose, ME1 isn't for PS3.

The OP is right with one thing: if we do defeat the Reapers, we will eventually become bio-synthetics ourselves, unless an alternate and superior evolution path is discovered.

We will all evolve into giant brains going from galaxy to galaxy absorbing all knowlede,we will evolve beyond the need for asses.


+1 if you get the reference

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, I'm saying the fleet was sitting there for an unknown amount of time ready to shoot.

First: how do you know, and secondly it does not matter how much time they were there.

Do you really want to know why? Because we can compensate for movement. We can do it now to say nothing about it in the future (because surely measurements and scientific advancements to this regard would make it easier, not more difficult).

Saphra Deden wrote...
Who do you think is more patient? You, or the Reapers? I know what I'd do.

I'd watch your cute little group of ships huddle in some corner and then I'd do nothing while you built up. You need to eat you see and to recharge your batteries. So eventually you'll give up and go-home. I might hassel your supplie lines to force you to divide your forces and to speed up the process.

What a grostesque over-simplification.

Why would we go home? We have experience combating (and defeating) the Reapers by the time we get to Earth. As long as they watch and know we're there, that's good because we know they're paying attention.

And if you leave to attack our supply lines then good because you've left orbit which means we can tear you apart at leisure because you've left the safety of Earth. You've just fallen for a classic trap Saphra, well done.

Saphra Deden wrote...
You say this so casually, as though killing Reapers is easy.

It isn't going to be easy but it is going to be doable. Because by this point of time we've had a lot of experience destroying Reapers. And that's something your scenario hasn't taken account for. 

Saphra Deden wrote...
Remember, again: even if this strategy does work the Reapers can always give up and retreat, possibly destroying the planet as they do.

1) They wont have time to destroy the planet as they go if they're getting destroyed in high orbit (read: previous battle experience + sophistication of targetting capabilities within the ME universe + silhouettes etc.)
2) Them successfully retreating from Earth is a good result. Let them go and remain vigilant. Rebuild and reconnect supply routes and patrol space. There isn't much you can do otherwise until/if the Reapers attack, then dedicate just as much forces that you need and hunt them down. I'm not an actual General so I don't know things like how to plan a retalitory strike against an incursive element, but I doubt you'd need overwhelming force if that would leave you open to attack at other avenues.

Saphra Deden wrote...
They can then launch hit and run attacks against other garden worlds until there is not a single habitable world left in the known galaxy.

Right, but worlds are going to be lost anyway truthfully speaking. So, if the world doesn't hold strategic importance, don't bother defending it. While they're busy doing that, it's actually a good thing, because it means they aren't doing something important, which means we can be doing something important such as retrofitting existing ships, perhaps building more ships, perhaps design and implement systems that allow us to work at greater efficiency when co-ordinating with ships in different navies. You know, whatever.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Maybe you can save Earth, for a while anyway. That's only one angle of the war though. The easier one, at that.

I'm glad you've gone so far as to swallow at least a little bit of your pride to admit at least that small fact

Saphra Deden wrote...
What makes you think it is instant? You have to fight Reapers in orbit too, remember? You are assuming this will be easy for some strange reason.

That's because mathematics is easy for a computer. It's why computer's were designed in the first place, to aid us. While AI is 'illegal', it's absurd to think that computer's aiding gunnery officers is also illegal. Calculating and minutely aligning 'gun barrels' is easy for a computer, because it's all mechanical motion.

I merely extrapolate some of the things we can do now into the ME universe, while only assuming that the speed that a computer takes to achieve it's calculation is only doubled from now, which even then is far too cautious because the ME universe's technology (for humans) has jumped forward by 200 years.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Suppose there are merely two-dozen Reapers in orbit while hundreds wait on the surface. How long would it take you to fight you way through two-dozen[/u] dreadnought sized Reapers?

I dunno, 3 hours? No 4!

Seriously though; we aren't fighting them, and that's what you refuse to acknowledge mainly. We're there to poke them to the point where they have to take a meaningful action. We advance, open salvos and then retreat. We keep this up, with their damage steadily mounting and they will be forced to respond eventually.

Here's a nasty rub too, we can monitor global communications on Earth. If we find signs of human resistance (aka; what I suppose Admiral Anderson's reason for remaining on the planet), we can do sneaky things like:
a) Purposely draw Reaper attention while sneaking supplies to the resistance
Co-ordinate with the resistance to give us intel.

Saphra Deden wrote...
It's not healthy to assume you'll have any of this information because you certainly don't right now. If you do wind up with such an intimate knowldge of their construction methods, then by all means, give it a shot.

The only thing I'm actually assuming is the combat experience gathered by the team as they defeat Reapers elsewhere. The other stuff is just a bonus (aka; I don't expect to actually [i]find it), but I find it hard to believe the documentation wasn't kept, so while I'm not assuming that I'll definitely get it, I am assuming that if I do, it would be worthwhile.

Saphra Deden wrote...
However needing to target specific places as opposed to any location on the Reaper you can align your guns with puts you at a disadvantage. You don't need more of those.

No, it really isn't. Imagine if you had a sniper with a golden arm (provided by adequate mathematical modelling). If that sniper can nigh guarantee a hit and kill, it would be ridiculous to use him. But the strategy to defeat them isn't limited to just getting the torpedo into the exhaust vent, and even if I did, I don't need the force to do it either.

You can not win in this exchange Saphra; it's only your dogged sense of defeatism that makes you continue it

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

But it can be done.  And, were we to win this war, who's to say that the other races wouldn't help, with them being so thankful that we saved the galaxy from anhiliation.  So, Earth would not be a total loss -- thus invalidating one of your arguments as to why we should not try to fight the Reapers.

It would be a total loss for the foreseeable future. The other races aren't going to be able to spare much seeing as they have their own worlds to attend to and have nothing to gain by helping us rebuild.

No, it's not like Eezo isn't so valuable that we just go around picking up every bit of it that we can during the course of the game.  Having access to so much of a valuable resource, (assuming it's reusable) along with all of the salvagable parts alone might make it worth investing in cleaning up Earth. 

Also, look at other disasters around the world as well -- hurricanes, war, tornadoes, tsunamis -- for some people it isn't a matter of leaving it behind.  It might be more expensive to try to relocate the entire population of Earth then it would be just to stay and try to tough it out.  Who's going to foot the bill to relocate all of those people?  The Citadel?  Forget it.  The Alliance?  They might try, but probably wouldn't be able to.  We're talking billions of people.  Just ten percent of Earth's population could survive, and it would already be roughly ten times the Population of the Quarian Flotilla.  Then there's the question of where would we go?  Are there any human colonies ready to support that kind of influx?  Most likely not -- it would require a huge amount of resources and infastructure, and I don't believe that many of our colonies would be developed enough to handle that.

So, as far as a TOTAL loss, it would take a lot more than a planet covered in Eezo to constitute that.  We're talking Earth crippled to the point that it could no longer immediately sustain life for me to count it as a total loss, and no, there is not enough evidence within the game that the Eezo (even at said levels) could damage Earth that much, especially if there were efforts undergoing to clean up and salvage by every able-bodied person.

[Sisterofshane]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

MGIII wrote...

100k wrote...

Hold O to take the cowards way out.

Silly goose, ME1 isn't for PS3.

The OP is right with one thing: if we do defeat the Reapers, we will eventually become bio-synthetics ourselves, unless an alternate and superior evolution path is discovered.

We will all evolve into giant brains going from galaxy to galaxy absorbing all knowlede,we will evolve beyond the need for asses.


+1 if you get the reference

Yay for Futurama!  ( At least I think it's Futurama!  It's been awhile .. *dusts off DVD collection*)


EDIT: aaaaaannnnd with that, I'm going to bed. G'night everyone!

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:10 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

"Strike with a direct attack.Win with an indirect attack."-Sun Tzu

[Arijharn]

it could do a lot of damage, but by your own admission a planet is big, so it's impossible really for it to contaminate the entire planet.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Serious question here.Is there a possibility that the reapers are vulnerable to an EMP,ship based mass effect weapons hit as hard as a nuke(that I know of) but its pretty much just kinetic force and thermodynamics doing damage,so if we made EMP weapons or just used real nukes would it do anything?(serious answer plz)

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Serious question here.Is there a possibility that the reapers are vulnerable to an EMP,ship based mass effect weapons hit as hard as a nuke(that I know of) but its pretty much just kinetic force and thermodynamics doing damage,so if we made EMP weapons or just used real nukes would it do anything?(serious answer plz)

I doubt it. It's possible to shield electronics from EMP already. So I doubt Reapers would be vulnerable. Hell, they may not even have "electronics" resembling any form we are familiar with considering their strange construction methods.

I see.I ask because the reapers pretty much expect us to be beyond using...well you can't really say conventional and nuke in the same sentence...umm well WMDs instead of ME weapons.Just a theory .
Well ty for the input.
What about the heat from a nuke? Surely it would be able to do SOMETHING to the reapers they are made of(speculating) metal or something,I imagine the yield from nukes 100 years from now will put current tech to shame.There is no reason to think we couldn't strap one to a ion thruster or something,I understand it would still be a bit slower then ME rounds but as the saying goes "If it hurts,it works."

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 28 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

We might wish to avoid using too much heavy firepower on Earth... considering that would do perhaps as much damage if not more than the eezo would.

Though it makes me wonder...

I'm not at all recommending we use them in atmo lol the sheer number of them being used would surely be more destructive then eezo..and a lot faster at making the planet unusable.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Would be quite the Chekhov's Gun,I know a certain someone who would cry retcon for weeks

[Fixers0]

didymos1120 wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...


Wait wait wait.. Fixers0 did you just imply that fiction =/= fantasy?  That science fiction is not science fantasy?

Do you believe that fiction is somehow different from fantasy?

Actually, the term "science fantasy" is pretty common and is used as something distinct from "science fiction". There are no hard and fast rules as to how to make the distinction, but some examples might help.  Since we're on a game forum, I'll use games:


Deus Ex? Science Fiction.
Phantasy Star?  Science Fantasy.


Does it make total sense when you think about the meaning of the individual words in both terms?  No, but that's just how language is.  As far as the argument Fixers0 is trying to make, however....it's nonsense.  Consistency or the lack thereof is not a distinguishing characteristic of science fantasy.  Especially when a lot (if not most) of the "lore" inconsistencies that he's b!tching about are actually just gameplay elements.  Not to mention, he seems to think "science fantasy" is some sort of pejorative when it's actually just a fictional genre, neither bad nor good in and of itself.

Still you aren't able to tell me what's the point of establishing a lore with a codex, if you are not going to reference this in game.

But this is entirly off-topic and has nothing to do with the point of this thread, so i suggest that we end this discussion right here, a focus on topic at hand: 'Are we unable to defeat the Reapers?' i Allready shown my light on subject in one of the earlier pages, which you are still yet to do, so is the only reason you participate in this thread just to post unrelated notes about genres.

[Arijharn]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes, it does too matter. They have to scan the planet to locate the Reapers and they have to point their guns at them.
[/quote]
I was mainly saying though: How do you know they've been in orbit for however long, what made you just 'assume' it mainly?

Which we can find out without actually being at the planet. We can take a bit of time researching before we commit. Knowledge is half the battle


[quote]Saphra Deden wrote
You're out of food and fuel.
[/quote]
You just said we had supply trains, therefore we can't really 'run out.'

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
I haven't fallen for any trap, Arijharn. What I've done is cripple your much larger force with comparatively smaller forces of my own. Without supplies your fleet is useless.
[/quote]
Yes you have. You've struck out without knowledge of the rest of the sol system because you're constrained on Earth. I don't have to have all my forces standing around useless on show just like you don't need to have all your reapers standing in orbit above mexico. It's also beyond retarded not to have forces guarding supply trains. Not necessarily my forces, but forces that represent assets from wherever we're getting our supplies from.

And if you send some scouting vessels out they'll be set upon when we judge as much time has passed that your forces on Earth can not come to their aid in a timely fashion. In fact, that's what we want you to do more than anything else.

Also, it isn't as if we'd need constant stream of supplies (because well, it's not like a submarine collects supplies every tuesday is it?) which means that we'd need to be in a quasi stalemate for a length of time, but that's where us making nipping attacks on you comes in, sooner or later well force the issue, because neither side can afford to take too long.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't know where you are getting this "Repear killing experience" from considering you've only killed one. Unless you are taking into account the rest of ME3. In which case you might destroyed another one or two? That's quite different from attacking several at once, much less using precision strikes just to make sure they don't explode when they die.
[/quote]
I am indeed taking into account ME3 as well, because while we metagame knowledge that it's the end point of the game, in universe we know that we've encountered and destroyed Reapers to get to this point, which means we know they can be beaten, which means that we have hope... and don't dismiss hope's worth because it obviously affects morale, which affects a lot of other things as well.

Precision strikes isn't an impossible thing to do because it's possible right now with current gen weapons. To assume that they couldn't exist in ME universe is well, inane more than anything else.

We can't afford to attack you in too much force while you're in Earth orbit (according to your scenario, in game I think we'll actually just plough on in tbh), so we want to draw you away, if you do it piecemeal, you're boned to put a not to finer point on it. If you do it in a massive phalanx sort of thing, it's inane to believe that we haven't prepared for it, because you'd want to get rid of us so your dreams of wholesale conquest can be realised, and we are a decidedly deadly thorn in your hip otherwise.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
It could have been any number of things that prevented the derelict from exploding, some of them largely beyond your control. That's the thing with tearing apart enemy ships: a complex process is iniated in a construct that houses a lot of energy. Violent explosions may be unavoidable in some cases.
[/quote]
And yet it's possible. That doesn't mean you can't take steps to minimize damage, which is what I've been suggesting all along. Can I guarantee that no Reaper ship will completely explode? Of course not, but I never did anyway.

That's why prior experience comes in to play, that's why you don't shoot at the core centre of the Reaper, that's why you try to gain as much intel on the enemy in the first place. You know, why we did things like save the CB in the first place.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
As the Reapers leave there is nothing stopping them from turning around and lobbing dreadnought class fire at the planet if they so wish. Considering their target is very large they can be a lot more indiscrimate and still do a lot of damage.
[/quote]
You mean other than said action will guarantee their destruction? I think they're far more susceptible to wanting to preserve their own 'lives' than you... to the point that I'm willing to bet Earth on it for that matter (hey, considering you think we're doomed anyway...)

It's definitely a gamble, but it's an unavoidable one. In fact, it's really the only ace they have up their sleeve. 

[quote]Saphra deden wrote...
Or is it only your ships that can instantly precisely target enemies before they even have them in their gun sights right as they come out of FTL?
[/quote]
I'm lost, how did we get into this convo about FTL? How are Reapers in FTL if they're in orbit around Earth and we're trying to evict them?


[quote]Saphra Deden wrote....
How easy will that be? You have to drop out of FTL and then find the Reapers, take aim, and fire. As soon as you drop out of FTL you'll be detected so they'll be doing the same to you. That's a risky  gamble because you can easily lose more of your own ships than Reapers you wound. Also, time is a factor.
[/quote]
You're assuming that we'd just drop out of FTL go to Earth and immediately start the strategy against the Reapers?

No. And I'll tell you why, because statistically in the medieval ages (bear with me!) most conflicts that resulted in lengthly sieges did not lead in an attackers success... meaning we have to be a bit more patient.

Now, patience is a word that most might object too, but I disagree with it in essence, because to me my job is to win the war against the Reapers first and foremost. Aka, saving any survivors presently on Earth is of a lesser priority.

If you're talking about later on, it is a risky gamble true, but it's one we are essentially forced to take, which is why I'd advise against immediately pursuing them, because I'd expect them to take defensive posture straight away. Honestly I'd much rather replenish our forces before committing in a Reaper witch-hunt.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
How many Reapers are on Earth? It may be hundreds or thousands. How long do you expect to bleed them for, a decade? You're also assuming you'll have easy access to Earth. You may have to fight your way there first.
[/quote]

True, but this is as much to be expected more than anything else imo. Just remember that we'd have force of numbers (short of any scouting Normandy loitter wolfpacks we can send in first... and even then, I'd be hesitant) in pushing insystem, and I'd expect a Reaper welcoming party (because I would, I find Mass Relay's to be infinitely more strategically important than planets at least) and thus send in probes for scouting etc, etc.

Any Reapers that remain on Earth will have a harder time for it. If I can come in close enough, barrage and knock them out of the sky in short order, I'd be a fool to not to take it imo. Depends on individual circumstance more than anything and I think I've theorycrafted your head off as it is.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Let's keep in mind a lot of your plan hinges on your assumption that you can disable Reapers without blowing any (or many) of them up. Even a few mass effect cores destroyed in orbit (Reaper and otherwise) is going to cause pain.
[/quote]
Yep, but all I've said is that it's possible and thus preferable. I can't 'narrowly miss', I have to make shots count. I can make educated guesses based on a variety of factors though, and I can put my trust in my gunnery crew and more to the point, the technology behind them.

Is everything going to go my way? I doubt it. In fact, I'm going to say that they wont. But, even if I engage and sink 5 Reapers, and of those 3 blow up, then it's still statistically better for later clean up crews to clear up the detritus of 3 Reapers than it would be to clean up 5. In that case, I'll take all the luck I can get.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Then you have kilometer long disabled ships potentially falling to the surface as well. That will do some damage.
[/quote]
Unavoidable really. Sucks to be underneath. Still ecological damage is going to be 'more' contained by a ship falling onto the planet than large amounts of dust form element zero in the upper atmosphere, which will also have large amounts of debris flying around of an impossible to predict size and shape.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Also you may not be able to monitor any communications on Earth without remaining near it yourself, which means being Reaper chow.
(that's assuming Reapers can intercept radio transmissions anyway)
[/quote]
Maybe, all I said that it might be a possibility, not that I'd depend upon it. 

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
I said before I would like to minimize the number of assumptions I make. Your argument is filled with positive assumptions that will benefit your force.

Here's an idea: stop assuming the best.
[/quote]

Heh, you're a crackerjack in a box sometimes, in fact, the majority of it relies on the skill and professionalism of those under my command, and based off technology that is current now, with the slight admitted assumption that is more capable in the future.

My assumptions lie predominately in the scenario you have written, to which I see flaws, and to which I will arrange against. You have made a massive assumption as well; that the Reapers are unbeatable (but then you crossed that off earlier) and I endeavoured to educate you otherwise.

So, in the end, I don't assume the 'best case' at all, I just assume that technology is at least partial to today's standards. If a man in 'pilots chair' in an aircraft travelling 50,000 feet in the air can remotely pilot a missile into the opening doors of a hardened hangar in Afganistan in real time, then we'd have at least that technology in +200 years. You know, I don't even have as much wealth of military knowledge now compared to what I used too, so I can only imagine what the boffins in labs are doing right now (which is why you know, I don't make potentially outlandish theories or claims)

[Arijharn]

Wholesale usage of nuclear weapons on Earth in order to defeat the Reapers is a very bad decision to make imo.

Maybe neutron weapons, but that would have to be limited to strikes to outside what could be considered populated areas, and I can't imagine Reapers would be standing around shooting the breeze in the Sahara though...

[Rahmiel]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

It has occurred to me that humanity at least is doomed no matter what we do. I would like to point you all towards a specific planet... it was... ah yes, this one.

[quote]Mass Effect Wikia says...

Although no records of the conflict remain, most historians agree that both races wanted to colonize Eingana, and neither were willing to share. The two lost hundreds of ships in a series of battles over Eingana and its moon, Barraiya; many of these were eventually pulled in by the planet's gravity well.

The mass effect drive cores of these ships broke apart, dumping refined element zero over large stretches of the landscape. This poisoned the environment and a wave of extinctions followed. Many of the animal species that remained showed a tendancy to develop biotic powers. As the ecology of Eingana is energetic and aggressive, this makes colonization a deadly peril.[/quote]
[/quote]

"...most historians agree..." I think this is an important phrase here.  Most historians and scholars believe the Protheans constructed the mass effect relays and the citadel as well.  The fact is, we do not know.  This is a theory put forward to explain the extinction event on Eingana.  There are many extinction events that we know about and I'm sure there are incorrect theories to explain those as well.  (again, the reader or player knows this, but people in the universe do not.  Just like how Liara and Shepard know about the extinction events every 50,000 years, but scholars do not.)

It's more likely, knowing what we know about the reapers and the time frame (~127,000 years ago is right around the reapers revisiting the galaxy), that the reapers could have exposed the planet to eezo and poisoned the environment themselves.  There are no other planets that we have found in the known galaxy, yet we do know there have been many many wars.  Why is there no other evidence of battles poisoning environments to such an extent?

I think you have to prove that the environment being poisoned was a direct result from the space battle between the two species.  However if you assume both species were working in concert versus the Reapers, your argument again begins to hold some water.  But I will defunct this further down.

[quote]
So what will happen if we destroy hundreds of Reapers on or in orbit over the Earth? The same thing that happened on Eingana will happen on Earth. Refined element zero will poison the environment and wipe out much of the life there. The effect will likely be much worse on Earth because Reapers likely carry drive cores much larger than anything the races fighting over Eingana used, meaning a hell of a lot more eezo is going to rain down on the planet.
[/quote]
We do not know how reapers function, or how large their drive cores are.  Again, we are basing our assumptions on our own ship construction (design and understanding of mass effect fields) yet the reapers could be far more advanced.  If we were to build ships as large as reapers, we'd need massive cores ourselves.  I think the owness is on you to prove that's how they're built.  This becomes a moot point below though.

[quote]
Earth will become a wasteland with most species on land and in the water dead, including plants. This means
we won't be able to grow any edible food there. If the planet can't support life it certainly can't support industry and with that goes the human economy and along with it our military standing.
[/quote]
Why will Earth become a wasteland?  Perhaps you're referencing a source you have not linked to.  I'm not sure how you come across eezo is a killer of all things.  We do know fetuses (feti?) were exposed and not all humans died.  How does eezo exposure work?  How much is too much?  Is being exposed to some just as hazardous as being exposed to a lot?  Let's not forget that red sand contains eezo, and people use that as a drug.

Here's a quotation from the mass effect wiki about eezo exposure.  I hope this helps to clear up some of your understanding. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Eezo

"Dust-form element zero is often released after engine accidents. It is used by many species to influence or strengthen the presence of biotics. If a child is exposed to dust-form element zero in utero, due to its mutageniceffects, there is a small chance they can develop eezo nodules throughout their nervous system that react to electrical stimuli from the brain. This allows them to use biotic abilities, but many exposures have no effect, or result in terminal cancer. There is some question about just how 'accidental' some of those initial exposures were, after the link between eezo and biotics was established."

Even should the Earth become litered with eezo from drive cores, I think you have to go a long way to establish an extinction event due to it.  This goes to strengthen my argument that the extinction event on Eingana was not caused by a war between the two species/races.  It also puts a big hole in your "eezo will turn Earth into a barren wasteland" theory.  Not to mention, it seems that only fetuses are affected.  So worst case scenario, there would be a decrease in birth rate.

This pretty much kills the basis for your whole post, and thus renders your entire argument about opposing the reapers obsolete and incorrect.  From here, I conclude that to not attack the reapers in orbit around Earth, and groundside, anywhere in the galaxy, is highly irresponsible.  But I'll continue anyway.

[quote]
Obviously, Earth isn't the only world in peril.
[/quote]
I agree with you here, I do not believe the Reapers will solely target Earth and ignore the rest of the galaxy.  That seems pretty stupid on their part.  I also do not believe that another "Alpha Relay" event is necessary or could even be successful.  What proof do we have of this?  None, however that's our take on it.  We've only ever dealt with one reaper, or one collector ship.  Not sure how they act en masse. (that's french Canadian for in large amounts)


[quote]
WE CAN'T HOPE TO BEAT THE REAPERS IN A WAR
[/quote]
Hopefully you're not using any of your theory above as fact in this section.  I'm pretty sure we can hope to beat the reapers.  I know Shepard is hoping, along with Cerberus and Shep's crew.. a few people on the citadel, etc.  The shadow broker did not though.  In fact, talking to Liara in the LotSB dlc, I said as much.  Hopeful.

We beat Sovereign.  Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign did not attack the citadel fleet on its own.  Sovereign came with a geth fleet.  So it's not like Sovereign decimated the citadel fleet on its own.  The fleet also takes down Sovereign so the reapers are vulnerable to our "conventional" firepower, and from Sovereign we also have access to thanix cannons which have not been tested on Reapers, but were tested on Reaper tech (collectors).  So it is possible to kill Reapers without some "deus ex machina".

Furthermore, previous "galactic reaping" happened after the citadel was taken and the relays disabled.  Effectively leaving systems undefended and dividing all military forces.  Divide and conquer.  We do not have that problem because of the events in ME1 and in the dlc Arrival.  The reapers will have to send a force to attack the citadel.  There do not appear to be any more quick ways to the citadel.

[quote]
Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.

[quote]Codex: Space Combat

Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.

Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.[/quote]

There is a key difference between us and the Reapers though. Any enemy we fight will, somewhere, have some sort of planet/moon/asteroid based assets to defend. Thus we can assault their planets to earn a victory if we must.
[/quote]
I brought this up before, but not knowing of any important Reaper locations does not mean that none exist.  In ME3, finding such a location may be the key to success.  Forcing the reapers into a confrontation.  You cannot seem to fathom Reapers requiring such a place, but that's fine, because the Reapers are "unfathomable".  Does not mean one does not exist though.

Perhaps the secret will be engineering a quantum entanglement tracer in order to track down reapers.  If the reapers are all connected via QEC to their technology, then perhaps somewhere in all the science fiction, a scientist will help to develop a warning system or tracking system for the reapers.  Turning their own tech against them.  Maybe EDI will be the only one to tap into such a system.

[quote]
With the Reapers however this is not so. They have no planetary assets that they must defend. The Reapers are self sufficient, space-borne intelligences. It has been pointed out that they want the Earth and while this may be true, I guarantee you that they want their own continual survival even more than that. Assuming we successfully rally the galaxy to come and get their people killed to save our planet this offers no promise of victory against the Reapers. As soon as they realize the battle is turning against them (assuming that it does and that they don't just
obliterate every fleet in the galaxy), the Reapers will flee.
[/quote]
Why then, did Sovereign not flee the citadel?  As soon as the human fleet showed up, the battle had turned.  Why did Sovereign not abandon the plan?  Could it be that we do not know the Reapers as well as you surmise?  Could it be that Reapers cannot conceive of defeat against such a species therefore there will be no retreat?  These are questions I hope we get answers to in ME3.  I do not believe you have sufficient evidence with which to declare the reapers are concerned solely with their own survival.  At least, you have not referenced any such evidence.

Is it not just as likely that the reapers are not concerned about preservation of life (their own) but rather the extinction of all organic life?

[quote]
Maybe some aliens will get smart and blow up the Charon relay, isolating the Reapers in our cluster. This might buy the galaxy some time, but they'll never have any hope of winning the war.
[/quote]
The galaxy did not have a hope of fighting the reapers either until the beacon on Eden Prime was discovered.  Should the reapers be isolated, and the galaxy "buys some time", what makes you believe "they'll never have any hope of winning the war."  More discoveries could be made in that time, of other races, or other beacons, or other tech.  How much time would it buy us though?  You say some time, but how much?  You speak with such certainty in everything else, but vaguely here.

[quote]
The thing is, the Reapers don't need to capture any planets besides Earth. All they have to do is drop in out of FTL near a planet and bombard all of its inhabitants into ash. They can do this again and again on every populated world in the galaxy until none remain.
[/quote]
Why would they do that?  Why do they need to capture Earth?  You're assuming that the Reapers will want to reproduce using humans after the events in ME2.  Harbinger (post SM) mentions, "Know this as you die in vain.  Your time will come.  Your species will fall."  That doesn't sound like they're going to capture Earth or allow us to "ascend" anymore.  I do not see how you draw the conclusion that the Reapers want to capture Earth alone and destroy the rest of the galaxy.

We still do not know the motivations for the Reapers' actions (and may never know leading to lots of speculation) or how Reapers power themselves, if they need to refuel or recharge at all!

[quote]
The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safeto assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.
[/quote]
I see this as being possible in your scenario, however this is not the case.  Destroying the Charon relay would destroy humanity (just like losing to the reapers would).  I also, like you, believe the reapers would guard against such tactics.  Evidenced by the reapers preventing Paul Grayson from committing suicide in Retribution.  They say they lost a previous subject that way.  Knowing they lost a system (the Alpha Relay) in the Arrival dlc, it's not a far stretch to conclude they would prevent any such event from destroying more relays.  They do seem to learn from experience.

[quote]
Now, assuming this isn't necessary and Shepard discovers some miracle that can defeat the Reapers, it will still be a hollow victory in some respects. The inescapable fact is that we will ALL BE CONSUMED BY REAPER TECH ANYWAY! Their technology will not vanish, it will instead be laying around for everyone in the galaxy to scoop up and reverse engineer. Terrifying things like indoctrination and quantum-entaglement devices will proliferate throughout the galaxy. One way or another, we will all become Reapers. [/quote]

I do not believe we know enough about Reaper technology to conclude this.  I'm sure there will be some cases, (not fully destroyed reapers, or reaper artifacts, reaper indoctrination devices) and I'm also sure some companies/corporations/governments will experiment with reaper tech (a la Paul Grayson) but to assume this threat will be greater than facing the reapers themselves, remains to be shown.  If there are no reapers left, who do the husks listen to?  Who's giving commands?  With no reapers to talk to the indoctrinated, no voices in the head, what makes you think they would still be indoctrinated?

[quote]
WE MUST JOIN WITH THE REAPERS

It is our (humanity's) only hope.
[/quote]
Shepard is humanity's only hope.
[quote]
When we lose Earth we will lose most of humanity, leaving too few humans to build a new Reaper with. We'll be stranded in a hostile and callous galaxy that will be eagerly working to reverse engineer Reaper technologies and their much larger and healtheir economies will ensure that they succeed long before we do (even with the Collector base). As they unlock the secrets of Reaper tech they will join in union with it
and change... becoming unrecognizable to us and at that point they may do whatever they want with us. Our fate will be beyond our control.
[/quote]
Remains to be shown that we'll lose Earth.  Furthermore, perhaps Cerberus will be held up as an example to those two work with Reaper tech.  It'll be a warning to discard such endeavors.  But, I bet you're one of the ones that like Cerberus.

[quote]
[b]The war was lost as soon as the Reapers descended upon the cradle of our species.
[/quote]
incorrect, remains to be shown, or evidenced.

[quote]
Humanity will be reborn, unified at last in a single form, many voices, but a single mind, a single will.
[/quote]
Humanity will be fine.  It'll persevere and save the galaxy from the Reapers once and for all.

So in conclusion, you're wrong.  Please try again.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Arijharn wrote...

Wholesale usage of nuclear weapons on Earth in order to defeat the Reapers is a very bad decision to make imo.

Maybe neutron weapons, but that would have to be limited to strikes to outside what could be considered populated areas, and I can't imagine Reapers would be standing around shooting the breeze in the Sahara though...

Well like I said it isn;t viable in atmo,but the EMP question can't be answered,we are currently working on making EMP weapons that don't rely on nuclear explosions I can't imagine we hadn't made them or just given up in 100 years.

[Arijharn]

Memmahkth, any drug in sufficient quantities is going to be hazardous to your health. From paracetamol to Prazosin Hydrocloride (blood pressure controllers). You name it, any in 'sufficient' quantites is going to be harmful.

And, to play devil's advocate, any result that shows a definite decrease in birthrate is obviously going to impact our species, due to the fact that we all eventually age and die.

If it's going to be air burst dust form element zero, where it lands its going to get everywhere, from clothing to crops to food supplies. It's going to build up exactly like dust.