2463 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Serious question here.Is there a possibility that the reapers are vulnerable to an EMP,ship based mass effect weapons hit as hard as a nuke(that I know of) but its pretty much just kinetic force and thermodynamics doing damage,so if we made EMP weapons or just used real nukes would it do anything?(serious answer plz)

Yes, nukes would be an ideal weapon to use against the Reapers.  As you say, nukes put out alot of heat (though most of the energy they put out is in the form of high energy x-rays), and according to lore, kinetic barriers (the Reapers main defenses) are entirely useless against electromagnetic spectrum energy.  While convetional nukes have their limitations, there's a variation of nuclear weapons called the Casaba-Howitzer that should (in theory) rip through a Reaper like wet tissue paper.


The Casaba-Howitzer is, in Mass Effect terms, a massively powerful, one-shot, thanix cannon. Quoting from the coincidentally named “Project Rho” website: http://www.projectrh...egunconvent.php

“[A] nuclear device is encased in a radiation case of x-ray opaque material (uranium) with a hole in the top. This forces the x-rays to exit from the hole, where they run full tilt into a large mass of beryllium oxide (channel filler). The beryllium transforms the nuclear fury of x-rays into a nuclear fury of heat. Perched on top of the beryllium is… a thick plate of tungsten. The blast of heat turns the tungsten plate into a star-core-hot spindle-shaped-plume of ionized tungsten plasma. The x-ray opaque material and the beryllium oxide also vaporize a few microseconds later, but that's OK, their job is done ... With [this] design of nuclear pulse unit, the plume is confined to a cone of about 22.5 degrees. [And] about 85% of the nuclear device’s energy is directed into the desired direction…"


The Casaba-Howitzer system is essentially a nuclear version of the explosive formed projectile weapon system, a technology that has existed for decades, and is currently most commonly used by insurgent groups in the Middle East against Western armoured vehicles. This lends the weapon system the additional gravitas of an established, combat-proven, battle doctrine.

Another major advantage of this weapon is that it is mass-producible using technology that has been around for some 240-or so years at the time of Mass Effect. If adopted by the galaxy at large, they could be deployed against the Reapers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. 

Modifié par General User, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:39 .

[Rahmiel]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

You're taking the word of scientists that are dismissing the fact that races are being systematically exterminated by a superior machine race.  Honestly, you can trust their conclusions?  Knowing what you know about the reapers?

No other planet seems to be suffering the same fate as that one.  I doubt that's the only planet to have ships blow up in orbit and crash.  Shouldn't there be many many many more planets with such side effects?  Even ones from the Rachni wars?  The krogan rebellions?

Given all the battles, all the destroyed ships (and not just from the current species) why are there not more planets like this?

Perhaps it's because the current civilization may have a way of filtering away at least some parts of the eezo out of the food and water to the point where it's relatively harmless.

That, or they just isolated the eezo in space before it could do any serious harm, and then harvested it.

I brought this fact up earlier in the thread, and even proposed that the races may have banded together to institute new design to have mass effect fields around the eezo cores in the event of a catastrophic systems failure (i.e. destruction) to prevent such exposures.

Going back to eezo dust exposure, reading the entry to the codex on thessian food/water we find:

Dust-form element zero can be present in minute amounts in Thessian food and water supplies; however, this has no documented benefits to sapient non-asari species. Non-asari are encouraged to select "visitor" versions of local cuisine, which are kept free of eezo.

Now, no documented benefits does not mean there are not detriments.  We combine this with the other entry on dust form exposure

Dust-form element zero is often released after engine accidents. It is used by many species to influence or strengthen the presence of biotics.

And we can deduce that species have different reactions to eezo.  It does not mention fatal.  The only instance where we get fatal in reference to humans is here

If a child is exposed to dust-form element zero in utero, due to its mutagenic effects, there is a small chance they can develop eezo nodules throughout their nervous system that react to electrical stimuli from the brain. This allows them to use biotic abilities, but many exposures have no effect, or result in terminal cancer. 

Note, a small chance to develop into a biotic, yet many exposure have not effect, or result in terminal cancer.

Again, the only victims would be anyone that is pregnant.  The only catch, is that we do not know the split of the no effects to terminal cancers mentioned in "many".

These entries put together imply that there are no detrimental effects to consuming eezo (as well as no benefit).  So if you filter your water, or sweep up your property and collect all the eezo dust, you just may get rich!  Seeing as eezo costs a lot.

It's a far leap to say from this data, that humanity would be wiped off Earth from any engagement with reapers in a starship battle.

[Rahmiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'll tell you what: if you aren't going to accept the account of the mass extinctions on Eingana then I won't accept the dates proposed. Show me physical proof this all happened 127,000 years ago.

Furthermore I want proof the Protheans died out 50,000 years ago. Physical proof. Prove to me that is the correct estimate. Carbon date that ****. Get on it. Now.

How do races date things anyhow?  That's a good question!  There is one reason why someone would trust the dating procedure from ME.  And that's because it has not been proven to be wrong.  Whereas explanations concerning the extinction of species in the ME universe we know to be suspect.  Such as the Protheans "leaving" the galaxy after having constructed the relays and the citadel.  The scientists tell us the Protheans manufactured them and that they disappeared.  We know that's not what happened.  So any extinction event should be heavily scrutinised.

Physical proof is in Vigil.  We actually talk to him.  Now, it's not exactly 50,000 years ago, but around there.  We're not even 100% sure on this board that the Protheans are wiped out.  So.. to say they died out 50,000 years ago could prove to be wrong.  It would be more accurate to say that the Reapers came back 50,000 years ago to exterminate the Protheans.

[Someone With Mass]

General User wrote...
*snip*

Two small problems with the nuke idea.

Here's the first, and here's the second.

[Rahmiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't know 

But you're the person that talks in certainty!  How can you not know?!  It's not my problem.  I have no issue disregarding your theory, as a lot of other people do not either by reading through this thread.

You're looking at Eingana as proof that space combat cannot occur around Earth, when we already know the dangers of exposure to eezo dust will be nothing like the event on Eingana.  Furthermore, people brought up Thessia as proof that not all eezo dust exposure happens like Eingana.  Not to mention, there are not more Eingana's out there.

[Arijharn]

Memmahkth wrote...
 Furthermore, people brought up Thessia as proof that not all eezo dust exposure happens like Eingana.

That's not strictly true, like I said, in the Mass Effect universe itself it just hasn't been 'proven' one way or another, which is why on Thessia there's 'visitor meals' that filters out eezo.

Memmahkth wrote...
 Not to mention, there are not more Eingana's out there.

No, that's not necessarily true either, we just haven't found others. This doesn't mean Saphra is automatically incorrect, but it also doesn't mean you're automatically correct either. Neither should be dismissed really.

[General User]

Someone With Mass wrote...

General User wrote...
*snip*

Two small problems with the nuke idea.

Here's the first, and here's the second.

I was mainly thinking of conventional ground forces on Earth using N-EFPs (Nuclear Explosive Formed Projectiles), where getting close to a Reaper is the least of the problems to overcome. There is no reason I can see why the devices can't be man-portable. A Reaper-killer in a backpack.

As you point out, deploying the weapons in a deep space engagement would involve the problem of surmounting the Reaper's point defense network. Now, it's my understanding that there are two main approaches to penetrating those types of defenses; one is to avoid detection by the network, which becomes feasible (if difficult) with the advent of the Normandy-class frigate, the other is simple saturation, deploy the weapon in such massive numbers that Reaper defenses are overwhelmed. As I alluded to, one of the major advantages of nukes is that they are buildable in the massive quantities needed to make saturation attacks feasible.

But, bottomline, as we've seen at the Battle of the Citadel, a Reaper's point defense network is far from insurmountable.

Modifié par General User, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:18 .

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Something which causes birth defects and cancer couldn't possibly do harm if released wholesale into an environment not at all accustomed to it.

You people should get jobs with Exxon Mobil.

For what it's worth, I agree with you... I just don't think you can cite one source and then go "THERE YOU GO!" and expect to get away with it.

[Rahmiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

...we already know the dangers of exposure to eezo dust will be nothing like the event on Eingana.

What event on Eingana? I thought it had nothing to do with eezo.

Let's pretend that it did, for argument's sake.

How do you know something similar can't happen on Earth? After all exposure to eezo will, with certainty, cause cancers (be they in new borns or grown humans, it doesn't matter) and birth defects. There is no reason similar effects can't occur in other organisms. After all, humans share most of their DNA with every other organism on Earth.

Birth defects and cancer on such a wide scale can severely **** up an ecosystem and cause extinctions.

First off, I was assuming eezo lead to the extinction event on Eingana for the sake of argument in my previous post.  I didn't mention it, but was going to edit it back in but didn't bother.

Exposure to eezo will, with certainty, cause terminal cancers in some unspecified portion of new borns.  It's unfortunate the wiki is not clearer on the proportions.  But all the entries seem to be consistent that only in utero children are affected (but not birthed children).

Are you suggesting that whatever affects humans adversely, would affect every living thing on Earth the exact same way because "humans share most of their DNA with every other organism"?

[Someone With Mass]

General User wrote...

I was mainly thinking of conventional ground forces on Earth using N-EFPs (Nuclear Explosive Formed Projectiles), where getting close to a Reaper is the least of the problems to overcome. There is no reason I can see why the devices can't be man-portable. A Reaper-killer in a backpack.

As you point out, deploying the weapons in a deep space engagement would involve the problem of surmounting the Reaper's point defense network. Now, it's my understanding that there are two main approaches to penetrating those types of defenses; one is to avoid detection by the network, which becomes feasible (if difficult) with the advent of the Normandy-class frigate, the other is simple saturation, deploy the weapon in such massive numbers that Reaper defenses are overwhelmed. As I alluded to, one of the major advantages of nukes is that they are buildable in the massive quantities needed to make saturation attacks feasible.

But, bottomline, as we've seen at the Battle of the Citadel, a Reaper's point defense network is far from insurmountable.

That might work.

[Rahmiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Something which causes birth defects and cancer couldn't possibly do harm if released wholesale into an environment not at all accustomed to it.

You people should get jobs with Exxon Mobil.

So now you're linking the effects of exposure to a toxic substance such as oil, to eezo dust, which has not been proven to have anywhere near the same effects?  The fact is, eezo dust is unlike any other substance we know.

No one has said that it will do absolutely no harm.  You're trying to draw correlations between eezo and other substances we have around today.  That's just not possible.

[racer700]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

racer700 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Wholesale usage of nuclear weapons on Earth in order to defeat the Reapers is a very bad decision to make imo.

Maybe neutron weapons, but that would have to be limited to strikes to outside what could be considered populated areas, and I can't imagine Reapers would be standing around shooting the breeze in the Sahara though...

Well like I said it isn;t viable in atmo,but the EMP question can't be answered,we are currently working on making EMP weapons that don't rely on nuclear explosions I can't imagine we hadn't made them or just given up in 100 years.

Hmm, EMP might be worth testing in isolated cases, but I wouldn't want to base any plan for it's success in any major operation to a 'maybe' until we've found out a definite.

Agreed.In the face of seemingly impossible odds,even a hunch is worth pursuing.

i think you can beat the reapers but i reckon their will be major aftermath... like bad.

Eh,pirates,scavengers,fanatical megalomanic recluses,all fighting over reaper tech,getting indoctrinated(maybe),there would be chaos,at least in a human perspective,we cant say how other races would handle it.

i reckon everybody will be affected, not just humans... since your getting everyone in the galaxy to save your race, heavy losses in population, major problems... shepard will have fun in the aftermath, if he survives the final battle.

[Pride Demon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Something which causes birth defects and cancer couldn't possibly do harm if released wholesale into an environment not at all accustomed to it.

Well, if we don't find a way to defeat the Reapers, environmental failure will be the least of our problems...
If we find said way of defeating them, we should try baiting them off world to smash them...

Assuming we can't bait them out, maybe we'll be able to limit eezo spread somehow, like retricting the eezo contaminations to certain areas by immediately activating clean up and purification processes (using mechs maybe, they shouldn't risk much by handling eezo...), some of the environment will be lost, some people may be contaminated, but some is better than all of it I guess...

Then begin a slow process of restoration of echosystems, but I think the reintroduction species shouldn't be a big problem when compared with the clean up... After all, humans appear to have a knack for genetic engeneering, if we were able to create tailed and/or cellulose digesting humans, cloning a animal/plant shouldn't be too problematic...

[Fixers0]

Personally i would like to request to change the thread title into this:

''We don't have to Save Earth, We Can('t) Beat the Reapers''.

You know, just for accuarcy.

[Bogsnot1]

We can beat the Reapers. IFF mission has already shown us we can easily destroy the Reaper Mass Effect core.
The combined military forces of the galaxy would easily be able to provide at least 5 strike teams per Reaper. Give each strike team an M-490 Blackstorm.
Destroy Mass Effect core, launch black hole at remains to suck up Eezo dust.

Both problems solved. Go home and crack open the beers.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

General User wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Serious question here.Is there a possibility that the reapers are vulnerable to an EMP,ship based mass effect weapons hit as hard as a nuke(that I know of) but its pretty much just kinetic force and thermodynamics doing damage,so if we made EMP weapons or just used real nukes would it do anything?(serious answer plz)

Yes, nukes would be an ideal weapon to use against the Reapers.  As you say, nukes put out alot of heat (though most of the energy they put out is in the form of high energy x-rays), and according to lore, kinetic barriers (the Reapers main defenses) are entirely useless against electromagnetic spectrum energy.  While convetional nukes have their limitations, there's a variation of nuclear weapons called the Casaba-Howitzer that should (in theory) rip through a Reaper like wet tissue paper.


The Casaba-Howitzer is, in Mass Effect terms, a massively powerful, one-shot, thanix cannon. Quoting from the coincidentally named “Project Rho” website: http://www.projectrh...egunconvent.php

“[A] nuclear device is encased in a radiation case of x-ray opaque material (uranium) with a hole in the top. This forces the x-rays to exit from the hole, where they run full tilt into a large mass of beryllium oxide (channel filler). The beryllium transforms the nuclear fury of x-rays into a nuclear fury of heat. Perched on top of the beryllium is… a thick plate of tungsten. The blast of heat turns the tungsten plate into a star-core-hot spindle-shaped-plume of ionized tungsten plasma. The x-ray opaque material and the beryllium oxide also vaporize a few microseconds later, but that's OK, their job is done ... With [this] design of nuclear pulse unit, the plume is confined to a cone of about 22.5 degrees. [And] about 85% of the nuclear device’s energy is directed into the desired direction…"


The Casaba-Howitzer system is essentially a nuclear version of the explosive formed projectile weapon system, a technology that has existed for decades, and is currently most commonly used by insurgent groups in the Middle East against Western armoured vehicles. This lends the weapon system the additional gravitas of an established, combat-proven, battle doctrine.

Another major advantage of this weapon is that it is mass-producible using technology that has been around for some 240-or so years at the time of Mass Effect. If adopted by the galaxy at large, they could be deployed against the Reapers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. 

So....nuclear shaped-charge?:bandit:This shiz just got real.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

...we already know the dangers of exposure to eezo dust will be nothing like the event on Eingana.

What event on Eingana? I thought it had nothing to do with eezo.

Let's pretend that it did, for argument's sake.

How do you know something similar can't happen on Earth? After all exposure to eezo will, with certainty, cause cancers (be they in new borns or grown humans, it doesn't matter) and birth defects. There is no reason similar effects can't occur in other organisms. After all, humans share most of their DNA with every other organism on Earth.

Birth defects and cancer on such a wide scale can severely **** up an ecosystem and cause extinctions.

There's been evidence of widespread disease all over our history -- think of the Black Plague.  Yes, for awhile, things were really bad.  But it didn't cause an immediate mass extinction of the planet, so humanity recovered and Civilization flourished as a result of overcoming such hardships.

I think that the situation on Eingana was extraordinary (as in "out of the ordinary", not saying it was fantastic) because of the lack of a presence to clean up the Eezo and perform damage control.  Eezo is only toxic (so far as in we know from the codex, which Saphra seems to hold in very high regard) to fetuses, and even then not in a majority of cases.  So yes, it might effect plant and animal like, but just being exposed to it is not going to cause widespread extinction by itself.

As an example, say that you're my neighbor, and I have a greenhouse(completely isolated environment with plant/animal life)  And while I'm gone on vacation, you come by my house go into my greenhouse and cover everything with cornstarch.  If I came back immediately and cleaned up all of the cornstarch, there would be little to no effect on any of my plants.  If, however, I neglect to clean it up, the cornstarch will eventually kill of the plant life, and then it would spread it's way up the food chain until my yard looked like a desolate waste land.

Are there any other examples within Mass Effect of planets that suffered mass extinction due to Eezo exposure?  None that I have found.  I believe that Eingana was an isolated case because there was no civilization there to intervene.  And a doomsday scenario just shouldn't be based upon the example of one planet that had no sentient life upon it.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I have two sources. Eingana and the Cerberus exposures that created modern human biotics.

What sources have you got that it is harmless?

No one is saying it's harmless. We're saying that it is not as appocalypically toxic as you are proposing. Citing Thessia, Codex on biotics, and the Exxon Valdez incident.

Thessia has an entire ecosystem that has incorporated eezo. It is obviously possible for life-forms to evolve around eezo. It does not matter what point in time that stressor is applied except dealing with ecological diversity, which will take millions of years to recover.

The Codex states that most human fetuses have no noticeable effects, on top of the 10% that become biotics. That means that at least 60% of exposed children will survive. This is hardly a catastrophic decrease in the birth rate.

The Valdez is an example of how clean-up and containment efforts can minimize the total ecological damage done by any given pollution event.

[ThanesSniper]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

For what it's worth, I agree with you... I just don't think you can cite one source and then go "THERE YOU GO!" and expect to get away with it.

I have two sources. Eingana and the Cerberus exposures that created modern human biotics.

What sources have you got that it is harmless?

The wiki says most exposures have no effect or cause terminal cancer, but it doesn't give percentages as to how many people end up with cancer and how many remain normal. The rest develop develop biotic nodules, which have been shown to be fairly useful. 

And weeding out those who can't take eezo exposure would advance human biotics over time, as whatever eezo resistance gene has a higher chance of being passed on.