2463 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePwener]

SJK93 wrote...

I, on the contrary, don't want an ME4 at all. Although I would welcome other spinoffs.

Well, that's what it would be really, a spinoff. Unless it's developed by Bioware (unlikely) like Bethesda and Fallout 4 coming out in Fall 2012.

I'd like to see what Obsidian does with it. I heard that Star Wars game was good and Fallout New Vegas is getting some kickass DLC.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

They could do it like Ong Bak,name sequels that have absolutely nothing to do with the original.lol

I would welcome the ME:MMO just exploration and stuff..and batarian killing. buahahahaha.


"You humans are all racist!"

[Grey34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

@sisterofshane,

Indeed, I will have to be content with convincing the majority of the audience, as opposed to swaying Saphra.

Swaying crowd of thoughtless peons isn't much of an accomplishment.

There is no logic or reason in your arguments. Your entire position hinges on ignoring the most important source that I constructed my argument from.

If you want to just ignore anything that contradicts you then you can believe anything you want.

and you ignore the most principal thing about the game. its about beating the bad guy.
 

[Grey34]

Reptillius wrote...

Cerberus is not the one accused of Eezo spills... It's Conatix... Go back to ME1 and talk to Kaiden Alenko a bit more. considering he is one that researched the subject a fair bit at some point.

yeah true but it doesn't mean Cerberus  didn't have a hand in it. exogeni for example with thorion creepers and binery helix with rachni

[Grey34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

For what it's worth, I agree with you... I just don't think you can cite one source and then go "THERE YOU GO!" and expect to get away with it.

I have two sources. Eingana and the Cerberus exposures that created modern human biotics.

What sources have you got that it is harmless?

just thought  mention that not all people exposed  to eezo developed cancers etc.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

@sisterofshane,

Indeed, I will have to be content with convincing the majority of the audience, as opposed to swaying Saphra.

Swaying crowd of thoughtless peons isn't much of an accomplishment.

There is no logic or reason in your arguments. Your entire position hinges on ignoring the most important source that I constructed my argument from.

If you want to just ignore anything that contradicts you then you can believe anything you want.

It would certainly accomplish more than what you have been capable of, which is being able to sway close to no one.

And to say that we have no logic or reason within our posts just proves that you are the one who is being ignorant.
  Countless specific examples have been brought up, referencing not only the game lore but also true history (which the game is based upon so it is completely relevent) including but not limited to:

• Numerous examples within game that Eezo exposure did not lead to catastrophic die-off ( note that the term "die-off"is different to extinction, but comparable)
• real-life examples of toxic spills and exposures with little to no long term ill-effects on the environment due to human intervention (Think Exxon Valdeez, or the BP Gulf spill)
• Instances of  species both in game and real life overcoming exposure to harmful substances or illness and being able to survive and THRIVE (think Thessia and the Black Plague), pointing out the hardiness and adaptability of organic life

And the only counterpoint you have to these arguments is a single codex entry about ONE planet in the entire galaxy of which this had happened, which states clearly within it's texts that the scientists clearly only "theorize" that the eezo is what caused the mass extinction.

And you expect these "thoughtless peons" to just throw their hands in the air and say HOLY REAPER BATMAN!  Saphra is right!  There is no hope for humanity?

To say we should not fight the Reapers because their carcasses might contaminate our planet beyond survivability is like telling a man who is dying of a painful cancer that he shouldn't take morphine because he might become addicted.

I would counter "Well, then I guess if I survive this CANCER, then I will deal with my addiction!"

BTW, insulting one's audience tends to be the last vestiges of someone who is losing an argument.



Edit: One instance of poor grammar -- didn't want to confuse anyone

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 29 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[Grey34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Grey34 wrote...

and you ignore the most principal thing about the game. its about beating the bad guy.
 

You are ignoring the most principal thing about this thread.

lol your funny, doing your funny troll thing. 

 good arguement   yeah can't beat them in a frontal assualt like reeger said have to play it smart. i can't wait to see how we beat them because they are powerful.     

[Arijharn]

SJK93 wrote...

I, on the contrary, don't want an ME4 at all. Although I would welcome other spinoffs.

When you say ME4, you mean you don't want another game where you play Cmdr. Shephard right?

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If anyone has been swayed to your side they're a damned idiot and thus no loss to me.

See, while I understand where you're comign from (and certainly share it in some past experiences), you do yourself nor your argument any favours when you start pissing and moaning in this way. When it comes like this to me I just go: "F*** off BSN" and go do something else... probably kill poor mercs in ME2. No matter how right you are (or think you are), you just can't win arguments on the internet. 


Chillax saph, this isn't personal.

[Arijharn]

Make me. Seriously. Grow up and realize I'll take my views where I want to, I'll support who I feel I should support, and argue those who I think are wrong. I'm also free to make up and change my mind whenever I want too, and after your overly combative term, yes I've changed my mind.

And you haven't proven anything you have made a position that doesn't clearly link the two, it's just what some people in the me universe feel. If you can't tell the difference perhaps you should 'Get Out.'

Modifié par Arijharn, 29 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[ThanesSniper]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You had to use bullets just to make your post a pain in the ass to respond to, didn't you?

We aren't talking about a single exposure here. We are also talking about amounts of contamination far larger than the colony exposures used to create biotics.That's why I keep refering to Eingana. That is a planet which experienced something very similar to what Earth will experience. This is the same for the real-life examples you are pointing out. None of the toxic spills that have occurred on Earth are anything near the size and scale of what I'm talking about here.

The fact that you are bringing up the black plague here is a great example that you really have no goddamn clue what you are arguing about. By the way, the black plague killed about a third of the people in Europe. That's pretty significant.

I never said species could not eventually adapt to the exposure. In fact I said they would do exactly that but it would take time. The planet I pointed out, Eingana, is even an example of this.

Thessia may be as well, but we don't know enough about Thessia. Mainly, we don't know when or how it acquired its eezo deposits. We do know that organisms on that planet have adapted to benefit from it or at least ignore the harmful effects.

I have the only damn example available to us of what can happen if a planet is saturated with eezo. You keep throwing it out.

That example is pretty goddamn important.

Your only counter to it has been "Prove the eezo caused the mass extinctions". I point out how eezo exposure (in far smaller quantities than what will happen on Earth) caused cancers and birth defects (both of which can be fatal) and you, again, just ignore it.

If anyone has been swayed to your side they're a damned idiot and thus no loss to me.

You keep bringing up Eingana but keep ignoring the fact that nobody was there to clean up the mess. Humans would definitely do it on Earth, and the Asari, Salarians, and Turians would probably help. 

We understand everything became extinct on Eingana. What you fail to understand is that the Eingana situation =/= the Earth situation. In all honesty, there's a good chance that you fail to comprehend what I've just posted just disproved your only evidence, or just choose to ignore it entirely, so I don't know why I'm even bothering.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You had to use bullets just to make your post a pain in the ass to respond to, didn't you?

no, I used bullets to visually illustrate just how weak your argument looks in comparison to mine.  Being a pain in the ass was just an unintentional +1 for me.

Saphra Deden wrote...

We aren't talking about a single exposure here. We are also talking about amounts of contamination far larger than the colony exposures used to create biotics.That's why I keep refering to Eingana. That is a planet which experienced something very similar to what Earth will experience. This is the same for the real-life examples you are pointing out. None of the toxic spills that have occurred on Earth are anything near the size and scale of what I'm talking about here.

You're right.  It's not a single exposure.  So why do you keep bringing all of the examples of single exposures if they really have no validity to your argument?  Which leaves you with only Eingana, which is not even the best example for what could happen because there is a major disparity -- there was no sentient life on Eingana at the time of the battle that could do anything about it.  I still think it's very important to point out that on Earth, salvage would begin and the Eezo wouldn't be sitting around being toxic for years.  The only similarity between Earth and Eingana is the battle.  That's all.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The fact that you are bringing up the black plague here is a great example that you really have no goddamn clue what you are arguing about. By the way, the black plague killed about a third of the people in Europe. That's pretty significant.

Umm, thanks for proving my point, which is that a catastrphic die-off similar to the numbers (about one third) that we do have relating to eezo exposure could happen, and HUMANITY WOULD STILL SURVIVE!  So, who is it that has "no goddamn clue"?

And the Black Plague makes it even more poignant, because at the time there were less humans overall, therefore less humans to start rebuilding after we adapted and survived to the plague.

Saphra Deden wrote...
I never said species could not eventually adapt to the exposure. In fact I said they would do exactly that but it would take time. The planet I pointed out, Eingana, is even an example of this.

Thessia may be as well, but we don't know enough about Thessia. Mainly, we don't know when or how it acquired its eezo deposits. We do know that organisms on that planet have adapted to benefit from it or at least ignore the harmful effects.

So, by your own admission, the only two examples we have within the game of planet-wide eezo exposure would eventually benefit from it?  So has does that equal your original post that Earth would be a total loss?  What is time to people who have nothing else, and nowhere else to go?  In fact, the only way to get any of these benefits would be for people to continue to live on Earth and adapt to the Eezo.  Since we know from the codex that a majority would live ( roughly 60%), and the species as a whole would benefit (i.e. the asari and their natural inclination towards biotics, as well as more potent biotics than other species), what would be the benefit of abandoning earth?  OR for that matter, the benefit of NOT destroying all of those Reapers above our planet?  If it means that humanity would continue along natural evolution and eventually benefit, I would say our only option is to try to defeat the reapers.

Saphra Deden wrote...

I have the only damn example available to us of what can happen if a planet is saturated with eezo. You keep throwing it out.

That example is pretty goddamn important.

It may be important.  Shepard's vision was important.  That dockworker's testimony about Saren was important.  But it's just not enough to convince anyone that what you say is the only eventuality that will occur.  That's the scientific method.  I'm not throwing it out.  I even said in my first post that you made some good points.  It would be something to consider if we were going to randomly start a war against the Reapers above our planet.  But the fact that we are fighting for our very survival changes that.  Sacrifices will need to be made.  Even if we can't save ourselves, maybe we could save someone else.  Victory may be messy, and difficult, but nothing you have said so far has proven to me that it would be impossible.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Your only counter to it has been "Prove the eezo caused the mass extinctions". I point out how eezo exposure (in far smaller quantities than what will happen on Earth) caused cancers and birth defects (both of which can be fatal) and you, again, just ignore it.

If anyone has been swayed to your side they're a damned idiot and thus no loss to me.

Another reason why I used bullets in the last post.  Saying that I only have one counterpoint to your argument when I clearly laid out three broad reasons with numerous specifics within them is flat-out untrue.  Besides, you said earlier in this same post that you have no more evidence that it causes mass extinction.  You only have Eingana.  Many other readers have pointed out the codex states that there is no reaction in "most" of humans, with only a fraction developing cancer and birth defects, and an even smaller fraction developing biotics.

So, again, if "most" of us will survive, then I see no reason to abandon Earth because of Eezo exposure, even on a massive scale.  So, I have not ignored a single point in your arguments.  If you say that in your next posts I will just assume that you are not reading.

And you're right about that last sentence.  Anybody who sides with me is no loss to you, because you plan on just giving up anyway.  How very un-human-like of you!

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I didn't think it was possible to have such a faff over something that isn't paragon vs renegade.

Saphra is pretty much in exactly the same spot lotion was in our little debate.(though saphras point is a bit more credible)

You all raise excellent points,but humans have proven themselves to be a very resilient species...there is only one planet with the massive eezo spill,and there aren't to my knowledge any similiar events in the modern ingame era,so you really don't know either way what the effects will be,one side has a speculation of an eezo related extinction event,the other has proof of its effect(or lack thereof) on humans...

also  Necessity is the mother of invention.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:19 .

[Arijharn]

My point being in that there isn’t nearly enough information to definitely link the two, but not that it is beyond cause for concern, because the information is so vague. Yes, poisoning occurred, but was that just the eezo, or was that a combination of factors including eezo reacting with other elements (that may or may not be present on Earth) that led to the poisoning of the environment.

Now, I personally agree with you that it’s more likely than not going to be the case that it’s eezo directly because it’s been introduced to species that aren’t biologically evolved with eezo, but I don’t think Eingana is conclusive evidence to prove your point. It’s a good theory, (and I accept it in the first place which is why we had our multi page cat and mouse game before)

But, if mass amounts of eezo exposure in the way you've described causes mass deaths Saphra, then why is that that when 'Cerberus' detonated ship drive cores over Singapore etc, there was no mention of corresponding amount of deaths? It would be impossible to hush up an entire city, nor to control instantaneous communications etc (such as camera phones etc, etc).

[Sisterofshane]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

also  Necessity is the mother of invention.

Mordin said something similar to this in game when you talk to Avina about poverty on the wards.
This debate would already be over if my fav Scientist Salarian were involved...

[Sisterofshane]

Arijharn wrote...

But, if mass amounts of eezo exposure in the way you've described causes mass deaths Saphra, then why is that that when 'Cerberus' detonated ship drive cores over Singapore etc, there was no mention of corresponding amount of deaths? It would be impossible to hush up an entire city, nor to control instantaneous communications etc (such as camera phones etc, etc).

Exactly!  If Eezo was at those types of instantly deadly (or even sustainably deadly) toxic levels, then why isn't there any mention of vast amounts of unpopulated (or depopulated) areas on Earth and all over human colonies due to the explosion of the mass effect cores?  There isn't any mention of it at all.  I can only suppose that we intervened and got rid of the toxic matter and cleaned up the environment.  It leads me to believe that Eingana was only contaminated so highly because the Eezo continued to sit around and poison generation after generation until a sustainable population was no longer possible, and the animals just naturally had to adapt.  And I just don't see that happening on any planet where a creature exists that could (and would) do something about it!

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cancers and birth defects.

How many? Was it total? No? If it isn't total, then it wasn't an 'extinction level' event was it?

We know via the biotics entry:
'Eezo exposure is by no means guaranteed to result in biotic ability. On the contrary, most fetuses that are exposed are not affected at all. Others will develop brain tumors or other horrific physical complications. In humans, only about one in ten eezo-exposed infants will develop biotic talents strong and stable enough to merit training, and these abilities are not always permanent'

And this is backed up by numerous parts in the game, including talks with Dr. Chakwas in ME1 and I believe Kaidan as well.

Saphra Deden wrote...
It was also a much smaller amount than would be have been present in the battles over Eingana or the coming battle over Earth. We're talking hundreds of ships, not just one.

It was an airburst with e-ezo falling over a large area. You can not contain something like that short of putting the whole area in quarantine, which wasn't done because publicly at least, the correlation between e-ezo exposure and biotics wasn't known well understood.

So, your entire theory is predicated on time constraints then, which means that its therefore not an extinction level event if people are therefore worried about it. Hell, for all we know we can live in domed cities afterwards and blot out that nasty dust form eezo exposure 

[SandTrout]

The sad part about this thread is that Saphra is usually pretty reasonable, but seems to be drinking the kool-aid on this subject, even when her opponents are not arguing with her basic premise. The only argument is about the severity of effect that the contamination will present. Available data, extrapolated logically suggests that it will not be an apocalyptic event.

Also, do not EVER claim that I have not presented you with logic and reason in this thread. That is a lie, and you do a great amount of harm to your credibility with such false statements.

[Sisterofshane]

Okay, back to the original argument, because now we are just nitpicking
bits and pieces of everyone's posts and are repeating the same arguments
over and over.  Let's get some new perspective on this.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Reapers contain massive drive cores of their own, and what fuels drive cores? Element zero, of-course.

So what will happen if we destroy hundreds of Reapers on or in orbit over the Earth? The same thing that happened on Eingana will happen on Earth. Refined element zero will poison the environment and wipe out much of the life there. The effect will likely be much worse on Earth because Reapers likely carry drive cores much larger than anything the races fighting over Eingana used, meaning a hell of a lot more eezo is going to rain down on the planet.

Earth will become a wasteland with most species on land and in the water dead, including plants. This means
we won't be able to grow any edible food there. If the planet can't support life it certainly can't support industry and with that goes the human economy and along with it our military standing.

Someday the Earth will probably recover, but that could take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years. It might even take many millionsof years depending on how catastrohpic and total the die-off is. Humans
can't afford to wait around that long.

Obviously, Earth isn't the only world in peril.

Let's, for arguments sake, forget about the Reapers for now.  There are too many unknowns about them (including the supposed size of their mass effect cores), and it convolutes the argument.

Say, we just took a giant heap of Eezo and covered the planet with it.  Literally, covered.  Even worse than Eingana.  Assuming that everyone is still around (not dead from a war that we are forgetting about right now), and we still have the current technology ( we know what Eezo is, what it does, and more importantly, how to handle it), I believe that the governments of Earth would start an emergency contigency plan, obviously on a wide scale.  First thing to happen?  Anybody who was particularly vunerable would be given preferrential treatment when considering evacs (pregnant women - There is still no conclusive evidence that Eezo effects a fully developed person) although at this point there would be little hope for anyone who was already exposed, it's worth a shot.  That would leave every able bodied person left to continue with clean-up.  Yes, we would clean it up.  It would be way more expensive to relocate every single person on Earth and abandon everything that we still have.


Would it take a long time? yes, that would take a very long time.  Some people might complain, most would see the benefit.  Based on numbers for Cherynobl ( the closest REAL WORLD event that I can compare to) it might take more than 100 years before the earth was considered "clean".  Is that so long that our entire species would just abandon the Earth?  I really don't think so. 


Is it expensive?  You bet it is.  It would cost a lot of money.  But so would relocation.  In fact, relocation I think would completely kill whatever was left of humanities economy, not to mention that we don't have colonies that could sustain that kind of population transfer.  In fact, I believe that the only reason that humanity has colonies is because A: we're willing to colonize places that are supposedly to difficult to colonize, and B: because Earth's corporations and invest in the colonization of other worlds.  So would we immedietely abandon Earth because the cost of clean up would be too great? No, I think not.


Now, the punch gut -- would it effect the current population of Earth?  Yes.  Most definitely.  Anybody (be it animal or person) who was pregnant would have been exposed.  That is at least an entire generation of humans/animals having to suffer the effects of Eezo exposure in utero.  Would further generations of species be subjected to it?  Maybe.  Would populations dwindle?  Yes.  Would certain species go extinct?  On that scale, I think it would be fair to say yes.  Would there be a helluva lot more of biotics? Yes.


As for vegetation, it never says on Eingana that there was any effect on the plant life.  It just says "mass extinction".  I think it's safe to assume that once vegetation dies off, the planet is in trouble.  I don't even know if Eezo is toxic to plants...they don't reproduce the same way humans do.  There is no data on that in the game.  But, for mass extinction to occur, there has to be loss of vegetation as a food source significant enough to disrupt the food chain, causing a ripple effect of extinction.  But, for Eingana to rebound, there had to have been something to survive the cataclysmic event.  So for all purposes here, let's say that some vegetation survives.  Is it enough to sustain populations?  Who knows.  But at this point, we are not stuck on Earth.  And, we are not alone.  If the situation was so bad on earth that people were dying in droves, something would be done about it.  I mean, organizations like Cerebus exist for a reason, right?  Because people are pouring enormous sums of money into the continuation of the human race.


If , after all of the clean up and investment  was finished a large, sustainable population was still impossible, would we just completely abandon the Earth?  I really don't see that as reasonable.  So much time and effort put into it, as well as of years of building up our civilization?  Some people would be left there.  As many as we could sustain, that's for certain.  And it wouldn't be an immediate evacuation.  Like I said earlier, that's too costly, and where would they go? And besides, based again on real world evidence of toxic spills ( there have been very many in Earth's history), with human intervention it doesn't take that long for natural fauna to return (in cherynobl people have already began farming the lands that were contaminated, an it hasn't even been fifty years!).


Ok, ok, back to the game now.  This isn't just a matter of Eezo.  this also includes the Reapers.  Yes, they may have mass effect cores of extraordinary size, but it doesn't even equal to my worst case scenario mentioned above.  Meaning clean up will be easier.  Even better, many people will already have evacuated Earth, so exposure would have lessened.  Grant it, the death toll would easily be made up by the Reapers themselves, but at least no horrible birth defects, right?  I still believe that if we managed to defeat the Reapers, we would still do the above.  Why?  It's what we've always done. In our entire history.  Cities have been raized and the inhabitants murdered but new cities are built on top of it,and even from the last city that was destroyed.  Just because we have other places to go to doesn't mean we will.  You can sure bet that Eden Prime is being rebuilt after the Geth attack, as well as Freedom's Progress and Horizon after the collectors.

The only monkey wrench in my theory would be a massive die off (we're talking catastrophic -- to unsustainable levels of reproduction) within the first generation of all living things upon the Earth after the initial Eezo exposure -nothing in the game supports that Eezo is that toxic.

Which is why Eingana is a very poor example of why the Earth is inevitably doomed.  The creatures of Eingana were exposed to many many years of Eezo, with no means of avoiding it or getting rid of it, and eventually populations dropped to unsustainable levels among most of the life on the planet ( if you keep getting rid of a precentage of wildlife with every generation, eventually you will get close to nothing).

And , which is why we shouldn't give up fighting Reapers just because of one planet!

EDIT: added spaces, too hard to read all in one lump!

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:34 .