2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Bogsnot1]

Last I saw, Earth had an atmosphere, and the Reapers are attacking Earth in your doomsday scenario.

[didymos1120]

Pride Demon wrote...

Their acid bypasses shields and melts thorugh armour, and Reapers have nigh impenetrable shields, but their armour appears to be average at best (a single shot from the Normandy is all it takes to penetrate Sovvie's once its shields are down)...

Actually, if you watch the scene closely, there are a number of fighters which all launch missiles at that spot to soften it up before the round from the Normandy strikes.

Modifié par didymos1120, 30 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[Bogsnot1]

With sufficient velocity, the bulk of the acid, sent as a viscous globule and not as a stream frmo a hose and tank, would reach the Reaper without too much boiling off.
Its an impractical weapon that was not developed along the paths the Reapers wished us to take, therefore, its very practical.
Necessity is the mother of invention. Nobody has weaponised it until now, because noone needed to. Given that Japan weaponised the humble Flea in WW2, its not that far-fetched an idea.

You can bend over and give the Reapers the lube if you want (and by all accounts, you really, really want to), but the rest of us have not only got smoe fight left in us, but we also have some left field ideas which actually have merit in not only defeating the Reapers, but also in how to avoid your "oh noes, earth be poizoned foreverz" scenario.

[Pride Demon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What makes you think thresher acid won't just boil away in vacuum?

It'd be useless in any space-born fight.

The planet I cited is without atmosphere and there's a Thresher living there...
Besides we could try to pull an Akuze on the Reapers...

Create an enourmous complex of underground trasmitters in some out of the way planet and make it seem like the whole (or most) of the galaxies forces are using it ar a headquarter...
Plant Threshers there, lots of them, to create a deadly nest...
Wait and see if the Reapers take the bait, trying to crush the whole galctic army in one blow (they like their sneak attacks)...
See what happens and laugh...

It won't work on the whole reaper fleet, but it would kill small groups of ground reapers (the small ones), and make them more wary about following leads that bring them to underground bases...

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's uh... certainly thinking outside the box though. A little too far outside the box.

I know, I'm weird...
Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing it's not for me to say...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Frankly, it warrants a nasty response from me, but I'm in a good mood.

I'm happy to hear you are in good spirits...
But I secretly wonder what the nasty response would have been... XD

[T.Attwood]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned or not (I've only just noticed this thread and thought it interesting), but there may be a way to destroy the Reapers. Assuming the Reapers have such good shields and so anything you fire at them will bounce off. Well, I noticed that 'light' seems to get through the Reapers shields with no problem at all. After all, light must get 'through' their shields and come back to the observer because you can see them! Therefore, a laser or particle accelerator should be able to go through any shielding and cause them damage.

Other ideas could be, modifying Mass Effect drives so that they transport an 'area of space', and not a complete ship. This way, you could transport chunks of a Reaper to where-ever, literally tearing them apart! (I'm not ready to give up on Humanity just yet . There must be 'something' we can do to stop them!)

Modifié par T.Attwood, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:37 .

[vehzeel]

According to the ME wiki, Eezo can be both benign and malign. Exposure in utero seems to increase the risk of mutation, cancer and biotics. Eezo is also used in medicines/drugs.

My interpretation on it is that exposure to Eezo increases the risk of cancer and birth defects, but it certainly doesn't develop over night nor is exposure to it guaranteed to lead to cancer. If radiation is any comparison to Eezo and that article is accurate, the wildlife won't be killed outright (unless getting a high dose) but be weakened by the Eezo. I think that some already threatened and/or weakened Earth species will go extinct if exposed to Eezo (like wolverines, tazmanian devils and pandas, since they're already inbred).
On intermediate term, human and wildlife numbers will probably decrease and a larger percent will succumb to diseases due to the negative effects of Eezo (malign birth defects). Some populations will even drop drastically.
On long term, the number of Eezo-resistant creatures will increase. On the other hand, the risk of inbreeding due to a smaller gene-pool shouldn't be neglected. Some species will be able to develop biotic abilities, though. Life on Earth won't be wiped out, but introduction of Eezo certainly will change life as humans know it.


These changed conditions aren't reasons to lie down and accept being turned to goo by the Reapers. After fighting the giant human Reaper fetus, it is obvious to me that what is left of humanity in it has died and is ruled by the Reaper part of it. Otherwise, why would a race-turned-Reaper ally themselves with the rest of the Reapers when they know their intent? Hundreds of thousands of creatures in a Reaper have also merged with it unwillingly. Then again, a Reaper-ified race might have gained some sort of insight that organics lack. But why not share this insight with the rest of the galactic community instead of killing off everything every 50k years?

But I'm getting off track now, and will stop here. Just my 2 credits in this debate.

[Wereparrot]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It has occurred to me that humanity at least is doomed no matter what we do. I would like to point you all towards a specific planet... it was... ah yes, this one.

Mass Effect Wikia says...

Eingana is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the inusannon. Although no records of the conflict remain, most historians agree that both races wanted to colonize Eingana, and neither were willing to share. The two lost hundreds of ships in a series of battles over Eingana and its moon, Barraiya; many of these were eventually pulled in by the planet's gravity well.

The mass effect drive cores of these ships broke apart, dumping refined element zero over large stretches of the landscape. This poisoned the environment and a wave of extinctions followed. Many of the animal species that remained showed a tendancy to develop biotic powers. As the ecology of Eingana is energetic and aggressive, this makes colonization a deadly peril.

The implications should be obvious, but I suspect I need to spell it out anyway.

Reapers contain massive drive cores of their own, and what fuels drive cores? Element zero, of-course.

So what will happen if we destroy hundreds of Reapers on or in orbit over the Earth? The same thing that happened on Eingana will happen on Earth. Refined element zero will poison the environment and wipe out much of the life there. The effect will likely be much worse on Earth because Reapers likely carry drive cores much larger than anything the races fighting over Eingana used, meaning a hell of a lot more eezo is going to rain down on the planet.

Earth will become a wasteland with most species on land and in the water dead, including plants. This means
we won't be able to grow any edible food there. If the planet can't support life it certainly can't support industry and with that goes the human economy and along with it our military standing.

Someday the Earth will probably recover, but that could take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years. It might even take many millionsof years depending on how catastrohpic and total the die-off is. Humans
can't afford to wait around that long.

Obviously, Earth isn't the only world in peril.



WE CAN'T HOPE TO BEAT THE REAPERS IN A WAR


Let me give you a run down of why.

Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.

Codex: Space Combat

Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.

Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.

There is a key difference between us and the Reapers though. Any enemy we fight will, somewhere, have some sort of planet/moon/asteroid based assets to defend. Thus we can assault their planets to earn a victory if we must.

With the Reapers however this is not so. They have no planetary assets that they must defend. The Reapers are self sufficient, space-borne intelligences. It has been pointed out that they want the Earth and while this may be true, I guarantee you that they want their own continual survival even more than that. Assuming we successfully rally the galaxy to come and get their people killed to save our planet this offers no promise of victory against the Reapers. As soon as they realize the battle is turning against them (assuming that it does and that they don't just
obliterate every fleet in the galaxy), the Reapers will flee.

They'll fly up, abandon the Earth, and disappear in to the vast Milky Way galaxy. Maybe some aliens will get smart and blow up the Charon relay, isolating the Reapers in our cluster. This might buy the galaxy some time, but they'll never have any hope of winning the war.

The thing is, the Reapers don't need to capture any planets besides Earth. All they have to do is drop in out of FTL near a planet and bombard all of its inhabitants into ash. They can do this again and again on every populated world in the galaxy until none remain.

Whether it takes decades or centuries in time every race in the galaxy will be exterminated and any human survivors will be cultivated into a new Reaper.

The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safeto assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.

Now, assuming this isn't necessary and Shepard discovers some miracle that can defeat the Reapers, it will still be a hollow victory in some respects. The inescapable fact is that we will ALL BE CONSUMED BY REAPER TECH ANYWAY! Their technology will not vanish, it will instead be laying around for everyone in the galaxy to scoop up and reverse engineer. Terrifying things like indoctrination and quantum-entaglement devices will proliferate throughout the galaxy. One way or another, we will all become Reapers.


WE MUST JOIN WITH THE REAPERS

It is our (humanity's) only hope. When we lose Earth we will lose most of humanity, leaving too few humans to build a new Reaper with. We'll be stranded in a hostile and callous galaxy that will be eagerly working to reverse engineer Reaper technologies and their much larger and healtheir economies will ensure that they succeed long before we do (even with the Collector base). As they unlock the secrets of Reaper tech they will join in union with it
and change... becoming unrecognizable to us and at that point they may do whatever they want with us. Our fate will be beyond our control.

Joining with the Reapers now, while they can still create a Reaper for us, is our only hope. It is a not a fate I'd have ever wished for humanity, but it is one we can choose for ourselves, even if reluctantly, as opposed to one left up to outsiders. I think the Illusive Man and Cerberus understand this and this is why they have decided to join the Reapers.

The war was lost as soon as the Reapers descended upon the cradle of our species.

However we will survive, we will continue. Our legacy will not end.

Humanity will be reborn, unified at last in a single form, many voices, but a single mind, a single will.

A nation, sovereign, free of all weakness, and... eternal.

If it's true that we would only kill ourselves anyway if we starting shooting them down over earth, then it would seem that the best method of defence is indeed to attack; lightyears out from anywhere in space, this waste would be relatively harmless.

[Someone With Mass]

Just to add to the eezo thing, I'd imagine that the eezo that makes planets practically inhabitable is because it is mixed with metals and chemicals and fuels from the ships. Especially when the dark matter/energy/not sure which it is in the eezo core blows.

Remember that ship in the ME3 E3 demo that got shot out of the sky by a Reaper? That's why the explosion was so goddamn bright and violent. Dark matter/energy being released/detonated in a uncontrollable way.

[Raspberry_]

yes we can beat them and my femshep will!

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

But you have a shoddy case, at best, for your argument.  If this were a murder investigation, it would never go to trial.

Thankfully this is not a murder investigation.

Sisterofshane wrote...

So let's not trivialize the matter.  Do you have anything new or relevent
to add to your case?

Do you? I've laid out my evidence and I've got more of it than you do.

Again, for old times sake:

Eingana

...is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of
ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles
were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the
inusannon. Although no records of the conflict remain, most historians
agree that both races wanted to colonize Eingana, and neither were
willing to share. The two lost hundreds of ships in a series of battles
over Eingana and its moon, Barraiya; many of these were eventually
pulled in by the planet's gravity well.
The mass effect drive cores of these ships broke apart, dumping
refined element zero over large stretches of the landscape. This
poisoned the environment and a wave of extinctions followed. Many of the
animal species that remained showed a tendancy to develop biotic
powers. As the ecology of Eingana is energetic and aggressive, this
makes colonization a deadly peril.

Then we have the accounts of the eezo exposures which in some cases caused birth defects and cancers.

We also have the ME3 description for Thessia that states there are indeed negative effects of eezo (which it doesn't list). However this is nothing new since ME1 and ME2 made this clear already.

Shepard was lucky.

Sisterofthane wrote...

The eezo contained in the oceans/lakes/rivers will be of little concern to our weather system because it cannot evaporate and be spread through means of toxic rain.  Any eezo spread through the air, would have to have been there in the first place. *facepalm*

Yes, I will agree to that.

Sisterofshane wrote...

Not my theory.  The theory in game.

What theory would that be? 

Sisterofshane wrote...

you refuse to admit the Eezo is only toxic to UNBORN fetuses.

How do we know this?

In small amounts it may be relatively harmless to adults, sure. After all adults are a lot bigger and healthier. However a fetus is still developing. That's why alcohol is (relatively) harmless for an adult but even a little bit can ruin your unborn kid.

It's like with the mice again. A small exposure for a human is a huge exposure for a small animal.

This is exactly why I've asked your for new points in your theory.  I can be specfic, and you generalize.  I can be general, and you feign ignorance to any other post mentioned within this entire thread. You're trying to derail my argument by making it seem like I have no argument at all.  I think you forget that you are trying to sway an entire species to go against it's natural tendencies toward fighting for survival and become processed into a giant terminator.  And, from what I've read so far on the thread, it's not working.

I was impressed when you pulled up the codex on the Asari Colony.  It was the first time (other than Eingana) where you tied your argument to an actual debatable piece of specific text, other than just make assumptions and wild speculation on end times.  I want more of that, even if you don't want to go digging through all the codices to find it and post it, at least tell me that you read it.  I'll believe you, or I'll go looking for it myself.  Don't just make assumptions and ask me to believe you.  If you ever doubted my credibility, I would find you my source.  Then we can stop the back and forth "I said this" and "No you didn't" and the general "you are wrong" with nothing to back it up.  Otherwise, you just don't seem credible.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Not my theory.  The theory in game.

What theory would that be? 

Sisterofshane wrote...

you refuse to admit the Eezo is only toxic to UNBORN fetuses.

How do we know this?

In small amounts it may be relatively harmless to adults, sure. After all adults are a lot bigger and healthier. However a fetus is still developing. That's why alcohol is (relatively) harmless for an adult but even a little bit can ruin your unborn kid.

It's like with the mice again. A small exposure for a human is a huge exposure for a small animal.

Ok, I'll bite.  Let's suppose that Eezo is toxic enough to cause cancer and tumors in adults.  Since you love worst-case scenarios so much, lets consider this one...

All people on Earth are exposed to enough Eezo to be considered toxic.  Using the only numbers I can find in the game (which relate only to exposure in unborn children, but it's not a huge leap), roughly thirty percent will suffer from ill-effects from the exposure, and since this is worst-case scenario, let's say that they all die from it immediately. 

Population is reduced by 30%

Let's say now that the next generation of people born are all expsed to the same amounts of toxicity.  Population will once again be reduced by thirty percent.

Let's say that this cycle continues.  After twenty generations, are populations would still number in the tens of millions.  The average generation lasts about 25 years, so that would roughly equal 500 years.  It would take hundreds of years beyond this for our population to dwindle to unsustainable numbers.

But that wouldn't really happen.  First of all, it takes time for tumors and cancer to develop, so population decline would not immediately occur.

 Secondly, the number that adds up to thirty percent in fetuses also takes into account still births and birth defects.  Adults cannot suffer from this, so saying that thirty percent of our entire population will die is a stretch. 

Third, the wiki states that modern advances in medical technology have alleviated many of the illnesses which plague our present society (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Human).  I believe that it is safe to say that tumors and cancers are not going to be the death sentences that they are today.  Access to medical care will be limited at first, but to say that within three hundred years that none of these people would recieve medical treatment is absurd.

Fourth, this assumes that every person on the planet from this point forward is exposed to these toxic levels of Eezo.  We would actually have to try for this to happen.

Fifth, this also assumes that Eezo does not naturally degrade into more benign substances over time.  There is no evidence to support that it does or doesn't.

And lastly, this assumes that the remaining population would do nothing to avoid this exposure.  Whether it be cleaning it up or evacuation, to say we just stand around with our thumbs up our butts while our world is dying around us is impossible to imagine.

So, Eezo exposure =/= immediate extinction
Reapers = immediate extinction.

I'll take my chances with the Eezo.

EDIT: My initial math was off.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 30 juillet 2011 - 09:19 .

[F00lishG]

So why bother trying? why bother playing the game? You know the outcome, so just stop.

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Its an impractical weapon that was not developed along the paths the Reapers wished us to take, therefore, its very practical.

No. If it is impractical then it is just impractical.

Japan by the way was not the first country to weaponize fleas. As far back as ancient times cadavers were thrown into enemy strong-holds to spread disease. Fleas were not singled out in this way, but they'd have been part of the recipe.

So you diagree that impractical weapons dont work, and then you cite instances where impractical weapons do work.

2 threads, in 2 forums, about the same topic, and have been proven wrong in both. Want to try best 3 out of 5? The way things are going in the Geth = Abimination thread, the odds are stacked against you.

[F00lishG]

Saphra Deden wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

So why bother trying? why bother playing the game? You know the outcome, so just stop.

Derp.

This forum never ceases to leave me dismayed.

funny. every time i see a topic like this, I think the same thing. So you gonna answer me or what?

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nothing about the ancient tactics I described was impractical.

You fail again. Good job.

Throwing the bodies over the wall were the tactics. The bodies were the weapon.
The same as dragging dead bodies into rivers upstream of the setlement, and then the invaders taking their water from fresher sources even further upstream. Bodies were the weapon.
Impractical weapons, but practical tactics.
 
To be more precise, the bodies were the weapon delivery system, the bacteria from the putrescent flesh was the actual weapon. In ancient times, they were not fully aware of bacteria and the microscopic world, so they just considered the bodies the weapons themselves.
 

As I said before, you seem to have no concept of military history or tactics. You have been proven wrong, with both logic and reason, multiple times, and yet the best you can manage is "You're wrong" and if that fails, you resort to insults.

[F00lishG]

No, it seems you don't know. i read your first post. the final portion sounds like what the indoctrinated will say. "herp derp we must join the reapers so they will harvest all life and either leave us to die or turn us into collector type life forms." such a cowardly Shepard. there's always a way to win. but you already gave up. pathetic.

Modifié par F00lishG, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Throwing the bodies over the wall were the tactics. The bodies were the weapon.

...and it worked. It was a practical weapon.

As is typical with most of the people who argue with me on this forum you have no damn clue what you're talking about.

Once again, you resort to insults because you have been proven wrong.

The bodies, which were an impractical weapon, became practical through the use of the correct tactics.
This has been my argument all along.
Thresher Maw acid, used correctly, can be a practical weapon.
Surgical Strike teams, are a practical tactic.

Now, in 3 threads, your irrational reasoning, false logic assumptions, and sheer stubborness has been proven to be incorrect, and yet all you do is scream louder, and then attack the person with insults when you cannot defeat their argument.
You know who else did that? Smudboy.

Doesnt say much about you, does it?

[BrotherCorvid]

I tell you how I'ma beat them Reapers.

I'ma blow one of them up. Get that eezo all smeared all over some animals. Spiders and junk like that.

Then I'ma get them animals to bite my squad and myself.

And then I'm gonna beat them Reapers with eezo-animal-superpowers.