2463 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

In this case, size only matters relative to the available labor pool, which is multiplied by available tools (technology).

Oh, how convenient, you can just plug in any goddamn number you want.

Useless.

Yes, and I chose to go conservative on my number, if you look at the likely amount of refugees that we're going to be seeing.

[Boiny Bunny]

I think it's safe to say that the game will feature an ending where the Reapers are defeated and Earth is not utterly destroyed.

As for this ezero argument, clearly nobody in this thread has any idea what they are talking about - and rightly so too, as the entire argument is based off 2 paragraphs of  made up mumbo-jumbo and largely unexplained 'science' text on a planet description screen, and a serious amount of extrapoloation about the ezero contents of a Reaper.

The bottom line: Bioware are in charge of the 'science' in the ME universe. Whether it makes sense or not. It is quite common for them to retcon plot points that don't make sense after a game has been released (recent example: David Gaider explains that mages in DA2 do not actually teleport, but merely slow down time from their own perspective and move so fast it looks like they are teleporting).

Further, we have absolutely no idea how strong 1 Reaper is in terms of a space battle. There is NO confirmation in ME1 as to whether the Alliance/Turian ships actually cracked Sovereign's shields, OR whether Shepard defeating the possessed Saren did the trick. Absolute belief in either of these is nothing but speculation. It is entirely possible that 20 Alliance ships could take down 1 Reaper. It is also entirely possible that 1 Reaper could take down 4,000 Alliance ships without breaking a sweat.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 02 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

lol there is no ending it. the speculation on Eingana is just too bulletproof to ever be proven wrong.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh, here's another example that strengthens my point.

The Citadel.

Anderson estimates it will take them about 5 years to fully restore the station. Needless to say the Citadel is way smaller than Earth.

The Citadel is a space station so it is a big machine,it isn't made of earth and stone,so everything must be repaired or the machine doesnt work right.NO one says all the pieces of reaper need to be picked up,the Earth will indeed be scarred,but we dont need to fix the planet,we just have to clean it.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[SandTrout]

Don't forget that all of your numbers are absolutely made up as well, Saphra. You have 1 instance of massive eezo contamination on 1 planet that had 0 cleanup efforts, everything else is your own speculation about how the contamination on Earth will compare. I'm taking a reasonable estimate of 1% of Earth's population becoming refugees that will be available, and providing my estimate, which I will admit is more or less an asspull, of how much labor would be required to clean 1 square km of landmass.

I'm not talking about actually spreading them out. I am talking average 'production' of clean landmass. Naturally, we would be at least somewhat concentrated in order to work more efficiently, but if 100 man crew can clean up 20 square km in a year, that is an average of 1 square KM per 5 workers per year. I am not suggesting that we actually split them up into 5-man crews.

[SandTrout]

Also, Anderson said 'fully restore'. I do not expect Earth to be 'fully restored' in 25 years, though, thinking about it, 25 years to recover from a war is plenty of time for most countries. Heck, post WW1, Germany went from hyperinflation and widespread poverty to an economic powerhouse in less than 20. The recovery after WW2 had a similar time-frame, though with outside help from the US.

[Phuz]

tldr

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*Waits for FishScout's retort*

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Don't forget that all of your numbers are absolutely made up as well, Saphra.

No, they aren't. Eingana gives me numbers to work with.

You could argue that the Reaper force on Earth will be a lot smaller than I'm imagining. That is possible.

Actually, Eingana is a qualitative example, not a quantitative one. From it we know that eezo contamination can royally screw up an eco-system. This is something that we agree on.

However, do no know how much eezo was introduced into Eingana, though you are probably correct in stating that it will be less than what we are likely to see on Earth.

We do, however, know that Eingana saw 0 cleanup or efforts to contain contamination, which makes the results extremely difficult to judge. On one hand we likely have greater raw amounts of eezo contamination on Earth. On the other hand we have a species able and willing to make efforts to contain and remove that conamination. This makes the Eingana comparison extremely dubious without more information on eezo cleanup procedures or how much actuall contamination either Eingana or Earth recieved.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*And fish hits with the 1-2*

[shaneofthedead]

The title of this thread should be "Gameover, man! GAMEOVER!"

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The radius is related to the surface area, but a larger radius means an EXPONENTIALLY larger surface area.

Which can work against you in this case.

You know it's funny you'd call ME math illiterate when you are mistaking 100 million for 100 billion.

100,000,000
^       ^ ------------------- hundred thousands.
Hundred millions.

You are overestimating how large that number is (both by skipping ahead three decimal places) and by not realizing that a square km isn't that large by itself.

Venus and Earth are often called "sister planets" because they are so close in size (and composition). Eingana is only a little smaller than Venus.

Sisterofshane wrote...

It doesn't necessarily mean that it would be any harder, or take any longer to clean up.

Yes it does, actually.

Would it be easier to find a needle in a handful of hay or an entire stack of hay that was several feet wide and several feet tall?

Sisterofshane wrote...

It would also mean that the Eezo would not be as concentrated as on the smaller planet, and therefore it's toxic levels would be less.

The toxicity builds up over time as you accumulate more and more of it in your body. This is a problem because it will take longer to clean up the Earth due to its larger size and potentially the larger amuont of eezo released.

Sisterofshane wrote...

So unless you can prove to me that this is EXACTLY how the battle for our Planet will go down, there is no reason for me  to believe that it's more than a possibility that we will toxify our planet.

I think it is a distinct possibility and I've demonstrated why. We have Eingana to go by, after all. You just insist over and over again that you can handle it while not really grasping any of the numbers you are throwing around.

It seems to me like you won't even consider the possibility of my scenario playing out.

You're overconfident and you're assuming the best. That's dangerous.

I do not need to detail exactly how every micron of eezo will be deposited on the planet. That's a ridiculous request considering I don't even know exactly where each Reaper or friendly ship will die or what the whether conditions will be like on Earth at the time. That's an extremely unreasonable request.

It's as stupid as asking me to go to Eingana myself and prove that it was the eezo that caused the mass extinctions. 

Thanks for catching my math error.  My bad -- too lazy to actually read over what I had written and see if it made sense

Still, by size comparison Eingana is about twenty percent smaller.  To give you an idea of how large one hundred million square km is,
the United states (in it's entirety, not just the continental US) is about ten million square km. The size difference of surface area
between the two planets is roughly ten times that size.

And I cite my generational post as evidence as to why levels of toxicity don't matter.  Once you reach the "toxic" level of lethality, that is it.  It doesn't matter if you get any more exposure to Eezo, because you're dead.  It's not like at that point we would pass down the toxic-ness genetically to our offspring.  They would have to be exposed to the same levels.  At which point in time, a little bit more of the Eezo would have been cleaned up by the previous generation.  So, over time, as  Eezo levels upon the earth go down (either naturally, through clean up, or a combination of both), it would take more and more length of exposure for each subsequent generation to reach the same levels of lethality. And I already pointed out that it would take over five hundred years at Eezo's known lethality levels to get our population down to the tens of millions.  It would take a substancially longer time to have human populations get down to unsustainable levels, and that's if we consider that all susbsequent generations of humanity are subjected to the same lethal dose of Eezo exposure.  I think it's reasonable to assume that we could have a majority of our planet, if not all of it, de-toxified by that time, or at least down to levels where extinction was no longer a problem.

And I wasn't asking you where all of this Eezo would land.  I didn't ask you to prove to me that Eezo was toxic, and I never asked you to prove that the Eezo indeed caused the waves of extinction on Eingana.  I was asking you to determine with certainty, beyond a reasonable doubt  that a battle the size of what you suppose will definitely happen over Earth. You stated before that we will not have any help ( I'm assuming that you meant with our defense as well as with any post-war recovery, as the other races will be too busy defending and taking care of our own planets), meaning we would have to rely upon the entire human fleet  (about 200 ships) plus a matching fleet of Reapers fighting close enough to Earth's gravity well that all of them will eventually rain down upon the planet, in order to spread enough eezo over the planet to cause the same effects as Eingana.  THIS IS ONLY ONE POSSIBLE OUTCOME.  It is not enough for me to assume that we should give up trying to defend the Earth before the battles have even begun amd we truly get a feel for whose side will have the clear advantage of winning.

So I have indeed considered your outcome, weighed it against the other possibilties (ad nauseum), and have decided for myself that I would rather fight the Reapers.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*Saphra comes back with the jabs*

[SandTrout]

How are you going to clean up the Amazon or any of the other vast expanses of wilderness on Earth? Areas that may have negligable populations, but still provide water (and food, though indirectly) to the settled areas.

As I said, I'm making a guess at averages, and I am also considering a worst-case scenario of 100% contamination, which is unlikely in my estimation. Yes, some areas will take longer than others, but water supplies such as rivers are actually easier to deal with: You just set up a dam that has the necessary equipment to extract/neutralize eezo as the water passes through the Dam.

However, sparsely populated areas are also the areas least likely to receive significant eezo exposure. Since the Reapers are interested in harvesting the population, they will be focusing on areas with high population density, and will generally be avoiding those sparsely populated areas until after they've cleaned out the cities. These areas may still see debris from orbital battles, but orbital debris is the easiest part of the cleanup effort, and once the war ends, there will be a lot of orbital salvage operations that will prevent hazardous (and valuable) debris from falling to Earth. That leaves only that debris which decays its orbit in between the start, and end of the war. The amount of debris that will fall into this category is unknown, but it will be scattered all over the world, and not likely to reach adequate concentrations to cause significant problems.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*FishScout connects with a left hook*

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*Saphra is reeling,she gets off the ropes and goes back to the jab,she connects to the body with a straight right*

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 04:22 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The crux of this argument is that you think cleanup efforts will be sufficient to mitigate the damage. I don't. (well, if I don't meta-game that is)

Certainly they'll reduce some of it, but not enough.

At least we can agree about what we are disagreeing about.

Note my 1st example of Germany post WW1, where it was not only not receiving any help, but had to pay reparations, though they had less infrastructur damage. It's not a perfect analogy, I know, but it illustrates how quickly a nation can recover from a war.

We're not trying to justify an IC decision here, I would argue that we can use meta-game knowledge to infer certain in-game knowledge that should be available to Shepard, in speficic cases. In this case: Eezo contamination isolation and cleanup protocols. These must exist to deal with the occasional biotic-making accident, and would give some sort of idea as to how much manpower a cleanup actually involves. Granted, they would not have plans for dealing with the aftermath of a fleet of Reapers, but the basic principals behind the cleanup would remain. Assuming that Bioware will not turn Earth into an eezo-choaked wasteland, I think that it is fair to say that the isolation and cleanup protocols are up to the job.

Granted, BioWare could prove me wrong and you right on this, but I do not expect it.