2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

GoG ToXiC wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

GoG ToXiC wrote...

Yes, but the advent of kinetic barriers removed the necessity of clearing the debris. If our planet was about to die, I'm sure the people of earth would be more than willing to spend fortunes saving their planet. It's kind of like diabetes. When insulant was developed, it diverted huge amount of money away from finding a true cure. Kinetic barriers did the same thing. It was no longer necessary to clear the debris from our atmosphere. If our ships didn't have shields, do you think we wouldn't be spending huge amounts of money trying to clear the atmosphere so that our ships can fly safely?

You missed the point of my post mate. I already said kinetic barriers protect ships from debris. What I said was that we simply CAN'T clean our atmosphere.

Sure we can clean out the big pieces, or the full husks of ships. But the smaller bits? (Smaller being relative here) Its just impossible. Its not a matter about safety of ships, its just you would not be able to match the speed of the debris to clean it. It will either stay in orbit, or enter the atmosphere.

And as the description of the planet seems to imply, element zero doesn't seem to burn up in the atmosphere easily. Eath is already a polluted mess. Its just going to get worse now.

Even if the reapers don;t pollute the earth with element zero... the thousands of alliance ships massing over earth will.

I don't know enough about the technology in Mass Effect to respond to your first two mini-paragraphs, but I can respond to your statement about earths polution.  I'm not sure if you've read the ME novels, but in revelations, it talks about the leaps in technology caused by discovery of the prothean ruins on Mars.  We gained all sorts of technology analyzing the ruins, including technology that allowed us to pretty much eliminate polution on earth.  The planets probably in far better shape during the events of ME, then it is right now.

Eliminate pollution on Earth? I'm sorry mate, I hate pulliing this card but I am going to have to ask you to read through the codex and ME lore again.

Earth is a pit. Its polluted, overcrowded, and hell earth is still a bunch of independant nations.

The tech found on mars helped jump human tech forward, but mainly in the art of mass effect field manipulation. Not wonder cleaning powers. 

Edit: I'm going to have to chalk this up to writer inconsistancy if the novels say pollution is gone. In game information seems to indicate otherwise.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[100k]

You can still fight it!

Yes, you bring up some excellent points. But ME1 and ME2 involved two key crippling strikes against the Reapers: preemptive planning is now almost completely out of the question.

In Mass Effect, Shepard managed to destroy two very powerful advantages that the Reapers had: Sovereign, their in-galaxy scout, and the Citadel (which Shepard gained control of), which gave the Reapers the ability to control the relays, along with uploading practically every bit of data on every species, world, and system.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard managed to take out the Collectors, the Reaper's last eye into the galaxy they were planning to invade.

Their three biggest scout teams are gone! They don't have the Citadel to gather information on world locations, or control relays! They don't have Nazara to help them unite the geth! They don't have the Collectors to give them a run down on what makes a species tick!

If the Reapers are modern soldiers, then the rest of the galaxy are cave men wielding bows, spears, and poison darts. But the Reapers are entering our jungle! Despite the fact that the Old Machines have entered this forest many times, the long years in between have caused the brush and vegetation to overgrow their well known paths.

There is always hope.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

ME 3 needs to open up with Blue Oyster Cult's classic "Don't Fear the Reaper." Or it would at least be amusing if it's playing in the background as Reapers are eating London.

Baby take my hand. We can be like they are. We can fly.

Then when a Reaper crushes the radio playing the song it can say "This planet needs more cowbell. Perpare to be elevated beyond your mortal coil."

[Praetor Knight]

Nashiktal wrote...

Edit: I'm going to have to chalk this up to writer inconsistancy if the novels say pollution is gone. In game information seems to indicate otherwise.

Well, according to the Codex, that could also depend on what part of the Earth, one is visiting.



I just hope that we can see at least one good storm in-game (cutscenes are fine too) for the period of time we spend on Earth in ME3.

[didymos1120]

Nashiktal wrote...

Edit: I'm going to have to chalk this up to writer inconsistancy if the novels say pollution is gone. In game information seems to indicate otherwise.

They don't.

[Bogsnot1]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
I suggest you watch Sovereign exploding, and then have another chat wth Anderson in ME2 about Sovereign. [/quote]

Yes, large pieces of debris caused the damage. [/quote]

And Eezo dust gets in through those holes, into the life support system, and gets spread throughout the Citadel.

[quote]
Eezo wasn't a problem because you protect yourself from eezo the same way you do vacuum. [/quote]

Vacuum doesnt protect from Dark Energy, which is what radiates from Eezo when subjected to an electrical charge.

[quote]
Try and think with your brain here. I don't have much patience for slow people. [/quote]


Relying on insults instead of arguing the facts. SIgn of desperation. 

[quote]Why you are comparing a space sation to a planet is beyond me.[/quote]

Because both exert a gravitational tug on all matter surrounding it. Both have a form of life support (FYI: on a planet its called an atmosphere). Why you refuse to accept the fact that Eezo from Soveriegns core would have gotten into the Citadel systems is beyond me.

This quote shows you accept the existance of the Eezo dust to which I refer.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Like what? A giant vacuum? That's ridiculous. Dust form element zero is exactly what it sounds like: dust. By the time it has poisoned the planet cleaning it up won't help much.
[/quote]

You have also ignored Thessia as proof that Eezo does not have to be a virulent poison to everything it touches as you postulate. As another example, I will refer to Chernobyl, where life has somehow managed to adapt and survive.

Edit: You have also ignored 2175 Aeia, the lush, verdant planet that the Hugo Gernsback crashed on.

You cherrypick, and when you cannot counter, you insult.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:47 .

[Nashiktal]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Eliminate pollution on Earth? I'm sorry mate, I hate pulliing this card but I am going to have to ask you to read through the codex and ME lore again.

Earth is a pit. Its polluted, overcrowded, and hell earth is still a bunch of independant nations.

The tech found on mars helped jump human tech forward, but mainly in the art of mass effect field manipulation. Not wonder cleaning powers. 

Edit: I'm going to have to chalk this up to writer inconsistancy if the novels say pollution is gone. In game information seems to indicate otherwise.

Earth is still polluted, but a lot of it has been cleaned up. None the less, the recovery has been slow. Sea levels rose and violent storms still occur in some places.

It is hardly the wasteland some people are trying to portray it as though.

It must certainly seem like a backwater boonie wasteland to an alien visitor to the human homeworld.  

[Major Tao]

Saphra Deden,

Not a bad "dark side" argument. Let's have a quote from another story. Saruman take it away !
"We MUST JOIN with Sauron !" One Ring ...ahem... One REAPER to RULE THEM ALL !
Oooh scary ! What a dark vision ending that will be !

I will take a different tact and suggest that the Reapers are uniquely vulnerable as they go about their harvesting. Yes they are incredibly formidable juggernauts, but they still hunger for something - and if they don't feed... perhaps they weaken. A planetfall landing means they are in atmosphere, subject to gravity, and CANNOT immediately warp away -they must leave atmosphere first...and it may be - that their orbital escape could be prevented with a strong enough attack.

The Mass Effect 1 and 2 story lines have allowed us to find potential allies who may be able to turn the tide. We can enlist allies who can attack the two halves of the Reaper physiology, both the organic and the tech sides. You know who I'm talking about !

Depending on the writers visions...yes the Earth will take much damage... but hey Biotic babies everywhere from Eezo exposure ! Maybe biotic dolphins and whales..and... well -we'll see how bad it gets. How bad it gets on Earth will also likely depend on how quickly we can rally the Milky Way Races to our side.

By the way... who says there won't be the technology to clean up Eezo spills hmmn ?
"Got Eezo dust in your room - from blasted Reaper bits ? Don't fret and tear the house apart Krogan Mama ! Try the Eezo Vacuum 7000 today ~ from Geth/Hanar Industries !"

It has been suggested already that the Reapers want to crush humanity - first - if they can.
They will move onto other races and the conflict will continue to spread. Some whole planets likely will be lost due to orbital bombardment. Still, I suspect the Reapers DO actually NEED to FEED - to replenish the organic parts of themselves - and when they land to feed - they become vulnerable again for a time. So each planet is another battlefield where the battle can be won - or lost.

Now for an inspirational quote...from the past...

"We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy ?
I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land, and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim ?
I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be."

~ Winston Churchill ~ Speech to the House of Commons, June 4, 1940, during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia...._on_the_beaches

[Dexi]

Lol it's this dude I argued in the space battles thread in which I dismissed him and proved Reapers can be fought...

Dude, this your comeback? You bring points that were already proven wrong in other threads?


It doesn't really matter, in ME3 we'll beat the Reapers and your pre-opinion of whether we can do it or not doesn't change anything.



Also, by this point I can tell you this: when you try to discuss military or anything really, you only bring assumptions and in-game/codex hints that you twist in your favor. For that, you fail.

Not even going to argue with you, I advise the rest to do the same.

[Nashiktal]

Bogsnot1 wrote...


You have also ignored Thessia as proof that Eezo does not have to be a virulent poison to everything it touches as you postulate. As another example, I will refer to Chernobyl, where life has somehow managed to adapt and survive.

You cherrypick, and when you cannot counter, you insult.

To be fair, the planet was devestated by the eezo introduced to the environe. Thessia has evolved around Eezio, and the new info on thessia recently released says that visitors to the planet that eats the food NOT at a visitor center, would be detrimental to their health. (due to the dust)

So I am not sure that Thessia is a good example. Eezo does not seem to exist naturally on earth, and it takes exposure to the stuff in the womb to produce biotic talent. There does not seem to be any benefit (and it points to detrimental) to being a human and being exposed to eezo.

[SandTrout]

Saphra, your logic is well founded, but you've made one mistake. Once a Reaper is at ground level, it cannot easily disengage as it might in space. Regardless of mass effect fields, it is impractical to travel FTL in atmosphere. The pressure buildup would probably be the equivalent of hitting a moderately sized asteroid, at FTL speeds. Also, friction would cause massive heat buildup that I doubt even a Reaper could withstand. The result would be a wrecked Reaper. Any ship must clear atmosphere before engaging FTL.

So, essentially, we need to find a way to keep them in atmosphere for the durration of the engagement. While the means to do this are not currently known, it at least provides some avenue of research.

Also, enviromental contamination will likely take years to 'sterilize' Earth's biosphere, providing adequate time to evacuate the major portion of the populace, which will have a high rate of biotic offspring in all likelihood. The result would be a huge population spike in Earth's colonies, which while economically traumatic, is better in the long term than the loss of that many individuals of our species, and would provide the labor for extremely rapid development of the colonies.

Eezo contamination does not necessarily mean the destruction of all life, though. Thessia is an example of how a biosphere can evolve to include eezo. We may need to genetically engineer crops in order to survive the relatively hostile environment, but we do have some basis to work toward by resarching Thessia-native flora and fauna.

We should assume that the Reapers do not have unlimited resources, as well. Even if they wish to bombard every planet from orbit, they must engage that planet's defense fleet, as well as whatever reinforcements can be called. Eventually, we can eventually establish a 'reverse siege' against the reapers by keeping them away from sources of manual labor, which is something they do seem to still require.

I do not take quite as bleak of a view of our possibilities as you do.

[Bogsnot1]

Nashiktal wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
You have also ignored Thessia as proof that Eezo does not have to be a virulent poison to everything it touches as you postulate. As another example, I will refer to Chernobyl, where life has somehow managed to adapt and survive.

You cherrypick, and when you cannot counter, you insult.

To be fair, the planet was devestated by the eezo introduced to the environe. Thessia has evolved around Eezio, and the new info on thessia recently released says that visitors to the planet that eats the food NOT at a visitor center, would be detrimental to their health. (due to the dust)

So I am not sure that Thessia is a good example. Eezo does not seem to exist naturally on earth, and it takes exposure to the stuff in the womb to produce biotic talent. There does not seem to be any benefit (and it points to detrimental) to being a human and being exposed to eezo.

If you read the National Geographic link that I included, you will see that I am agreeing that it wouldnt be the best for the native inhabitants, but life does have this uncanny habit of carrying on anyway.

Rules 6 and 7 from the Science of Discworld, teach us 2 very important things.
6) Life turns up everywher it can.
7) Life turns up everywhere it can't.

[CroGamer002]

Oh good, Bioware succeed to intimidate you with Reaper threat.

[Reptillius]

ok. a Few things to keep in mind here. Wasteland does not mean Desolation.

And not to be mean but I'm going to have to use a few things against the OP here. First of all. the codex for the planet. We have to deal with some assumptions made on the part of the OP here.

First of all. There is an assumption that either side was left to begin with at the end of their war. There is nothing in the codex's to suggest either of these races survived in the area past the point of the war.

Secondly. It says they eventually drifted into the planet and polluted it. This here supports that there was indeed a lack of both races post-war but assuming humans are still around does indicate there is time to clear up much of the debris in space rather than on-planet. Since most combat is in space... It's a dangerous assumption to assume most or all debris will automatically end up planet side. this makes cleanup much easier. it also gives us some time to in fact develope or further technologies to actually clean up or reduce the polution of our planet due to the war. An Effort that will in all likelyhood be made. Along the lines of oilspills that we've suffered so far and the fact that while we don't always hear about it there are many scientific and corporate pushes to make advancements on such pollutions to our environment. Simular could be made for Eezo.

Thirdly... while some did go extinct. The codex clearly indicates that many others not only survived but adapted. Combined with other canon Codex's it's of noteworthy point that humans can and may do this even with the poisoning of the planet... Potentially making humanity as a species as Biotic heavy as the Asari as generations of humans are born under such conditions. In fact we do not even know the end result of the introduction of Eezo into humans and what affects genetically the growing number of Biotics will have on the human population and future genetics as it stands now reguardless of the war.

4th. The planet can be considered a wasteland purely for the nature that it poses a real danger to any that travel there. In part because of the high tendancy for the local flora and Fauna to have developed biotic powers. This is a plyable meaning of Wasteland for the future of earth in such a war. Should humans survive this. The ramifications could potentially be staggering.


on the topic of Space Combat and the idea that the Reapers could endlessly flee losing conflicts. For the most part now being forwarned and prepared for the Reapers to Appear. many ships of the many races of ME3 can also use this same tactic against the Reapers. They are not pigeon holed into simply losing battles because they can't run away while their enemies can.

There is further the issue that There must be something of some kind on the other end of the Citadel Relay. There is the potential during the conflict... particularly prolonged for the combined Species to unlock a way to actually use the citadel relay themselves to send their own fleets to this dark space gathering point to attack or destroy what's there. Putting the Reapers in a highly defensive position unless they are willing to sacrifice their own base of operations so to speak.

Another thing to point out. So far as everything stands. Indoctrination Technology only seems to work when enough Reaper technology remains in tact to somehow make it function. How much or what about a reaper makes this possible is highly unclear and very unlikely to be found without one that functions to this level is examined. Leading to issues of being indoctrinated and becoming husks. if this technology were easy to gather and pick up simply from debris then the Citadel would already be indoctrinated after 2 years of exposure.

These issues combined with any others could infact mean we can adequately defeat and claim victory over the reapers and with nature being what it is in fact come out superior for the conflict rather than a historical footnote. Human being one of the intelligent species that are very adaptable over surprisingly short periods of time compared to other races of the Galaxy.

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I'm sure there was some exposure but it would have been minimal.

What would happen on Earth, what happened on Einganna, would not be minimal. There wouldn't be "holes" created by falling debris. The entire planet is open and exposed. It will get picked up by the atmosphere and fall in the rain, it may then be carried down deepr into the soile where it will be absorbed by plant-life.

If its the doomsday scenario that you picture, entire sections of the Citadel would be off limits due to contamination, including the Presidium. This is clearly not the case.

Yes, I'm desperately tired of arguing with people who can't grasp what I'm talking about.

I can grasp what you are talking about, you just cant grasp the concept that it might not be as bad as you think. Maybe if you stopped arguing that extreme worst case sceanrios are the only possible result, you might find the tiredness leaving, as you wont have to spend energy defending illogical arguments.

Thessia was contaminated long ago, maybe even before life evolved there. Thus the planet has recovered (or never needed to). Not the same at all.

Maybe before life evolved? You have even quoted the wiki article on Eingana which shows that not everyting is wiped out, life can and will adapt, and gain a benefit from it.

Humanity is not doomed, as we have already left the rock and populated elsewhere. Those who remain on Earth will not necessarily die. A good portion will, but life is surprisingly adaptable, as the Chernobyl link I provided shows.

That was one ship, one relatively intact ship. The core may very well have contaminated the area immediately around the crash site (under the water), but that exposure would have been minimal would be spread out by the ocean currents.

Again, not the same at all.

Scan the planet, check to see how far the Eezo contamination spreads in the wake of the crashed ship. If Eezo got into the ocean, then its gotten into the atmosphere, and has been spread around the planet. If you dont believe or agree with tath, I suggest you do some research into climate science, and find out how ocean currents affect the atmosphere. Sunlight would have evaporated Eezo contaminated water, and it would have fallen elsewhere onthe planet in the form of rain.
Also, there is no logical way the Hugo Gernsback should have remained intact. The beacon clearly states that it had exceeded safe speeds for planetary entry, no kinetic barrier is designed to withstand the impact of something the size of a planet, and if not for the devs putting it there forus to explore, it should have been a crumpled wreck on the ground. Its this thing called physics.

[Ieldra]

Interesting thought, OP, but here are a few points to consider:

Eezo poisoning:
...results in 10% of the unborn humans becoming biotics. Which means, soon we'll have a humanity with an extreme rate of miscarriages but the surviving ones will all be biotics. Since those who cannot survive eezo poisoning will not  grow up to have children, after a few generations humans will have adapted to the presence of eezo - everyone will be resistant to eezo poisoning and a biotic.

Defeating/Joining the Reapers:
Admittedly things are looking bleak. But we don't know very much about the Reapers at this point. I say it is premature to say that the only solution is to join with them. And - as someone else has pointed out - destroying the Charon relay would destroy Earth, but would also destroy all Reapers in the solar system. There are no FTL sensors, so the Reapers wouldn't be able to flee. When they detect the shockwave, it will already be there. It would be a last resort, but I say that 1% of every species surviving is preferable to being forcibly turned into a Reaper.

Existence as a Reaper:
Is not such a good idea in the first place. You have - almost literally - all your eggs in one basket. It's likely that when Sovereign was destroyed, the legacy of a whole species died with it.

Also quite funny:

KingNothing125 wrote...
OP is clearly indoctrinated.

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...
Look at this...
A human Saren...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Sounds like someone's been indoctrinated...

We can destroy a Reaper without blowing them up.... //looks at Derelect Reaper

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:45 .