Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 05:16 .
We Can't Save Earth, We Can't Beat the Reapers
Débuté par
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
, juil. 27 2011 03:02
#1051
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:13
Humanoid_Typhoon
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Chekhov's gun or some nifty Forerunner Prothean tech they were working on before they got killed to death.
Retour en haut
#1052
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:15
Humanoid_Typhoon
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Ugh double post.
Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 05:15 .
#1053
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:18
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The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
Yes, finally you admit, that the only way we can beat them is through a Deus Ex Machina.
As it has been laid out so far? Yeah, pretty much.
That's one of the things that disappointed me about ME2. I was hoping the game would reveal something that was both interesting and useful (to know) about the Reapers. Something that would give us some clue or hint as to how we'd defeat them. I don't mean tossing around the term "dark energy". I mean actually having the game suggest a vague outline of a weapon or weakness that the Reapers possessed which we could exploit.
That would leave us at the end of the game questioning how we would exploit this weakness or obtain this weapon/technology/whatever.
You know, actually move the main plot forward.
The Collector base woudl have accomplished this, except Shepard's ability to blow it up means the base will ultimately have no serious impact on the next game. It can't be pivotal by the nature of the choice.
This way when ME2 ended instead of Shepard once again flying off and vowing "...to find some way to stop them." he'd instead be on his way to do it armed with new information or with an actual target in mind.
#1054
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:34
Sisterofshane
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Saphra Deden wrote...
The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
Yes, finally you admit, that the only way we can beat them is through a Deus Ex Machina.
As it has been laid out so far? Yeah, pretty much.
That's one of the things that disappointed me about ME2. I was hoping the game would reveal something that was both interesting and useful (to know) about the Reapers. Something that would give us some clue or hint as to how we'd defeat them. I don't mean tossing around the term "dark energy". I mean actually having the game suggest a vague outline of a weapon or weakness that the Reapers possessed which we could exploit.
That would leave us at the end of the game questioning how we would exploit this weakness or obtain this weapon/technology/whatever.
You know, actually move the main plot forward.
The Collector base woudl have accomplished this, except Shepard's ability to blow it up means the base will ultimately have no serious impact on the next game. It can't be pivotal by the nature of the choice.
This way when ME2 ended instead of Shepard once again flying off and vowing "...to find some way to stop them." he'd instead be on his way to do it armed with new information or with an actual target in mind.
You know, you said earlier that you hate it when the good guys win because they are lucky, and yet that has been the entire plot basis of both games so far.
Shepard was LUCKY that the Protheans managed to render the signal to open the Citadel's mass relay ineffective.
Shepard was LUCKY that she made it to Ilos in time to stop follow Saren through the conduit.
Shepard was LUCKY to be resurrected in order to defeat the collectors.
^Those are VERY IMPORTANT aspects of the first and second games, without which would have been a "GAME OVER".
So what if we just happen to get "lucky" in the third game as well? OR that the plot point that you were searching for happens in ME 3 instead of ME 2? The whole point of the series is not that the game would be "Unwinnable", but rather that victory is achieveable, but it will require SACRIFICE and DETERMINATION. Neither of which you have.
And maybe the collector base isn't the be all end all of the war. But the decision to blow it up could come back to bite people in the end. Or there could be another decision within the last game which DOES lead to the defeat of the galaxy. You just don't know until you play it.
And just because the plot of ME 2 didn't happen exactly the way you wanted it to, doesn't mean that the series as a whole will be a major flop, and the only way to save it is by claiming that we CANNOT win.
#1055
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:48
Sisterofshane
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
Even the in game scholars can't truly explain what happened to Eingana.
Yes they can and they do in the planet description.
No, they only have a THEORY. They weren't there, they didn't watch it happen. They only have a guess, based upon the evidence that they *consider* to be the most relevant, the damaged ships and the Eezo.
Example, extinction of the Dinosaurs. Most scholars agree that there was most likely something very large collided with the earth, sending a dust cloud up into the air and blocking out the sun. This caused many of the food sources that herbivore dinosours required as a food source to die out, and naturally, the extinctions continued up the food chain until all of the dinosaurs died.
Now say that I have knowledge of a space-faring race that comes around every so often (and that they were most likely here around the time the Dinosaurs died), whose intent is to exterminate all organic life on Earth. We know that there weapons can cause massive amounts of damage, and once they were done, they erased all evidence of their existence.
We now have two theories as to the extinction of the dinosaurs, one that COMPLETELY IGNORES the existence of the "exterminators", even though I know that they exist. Which theory am I, with my knowledge, most likely to accept?
This is exactly the case with Eingana, which is why it is very poor evidence. And why your argument to abandon Earth and surrender to the Reapers is inherently FALSE.
#1056
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:53
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Sisterofshane wrote...
You know, you said earlier that you hate it when the good guys win because they are lucky, and yet that has been the entire plot basis of both games so far.
Oh, certainly. Mass Effect is good but it isn't exactly classy as far as science fiction is concerned. It's a cheap thrill that happens to have a really well designed universe surrounding it.
It's the universe I love, far more than I do the main plot of the actual series.
#1057
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:53
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Sisterofshane wrote...
No, they only have a THEORY. They weren't there, they didn't watch it happen.
No, but presumably they went there and collected physical evidence.
Modifié par Saphra Deden, 02 août 2011 - 05:54 .
#1058
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:56
Sisterofshane
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
No, they only have a THEORY. They weren't there, they didn't watch it happen.
No, but presumably they went there and collected physical evidence.
Still why it is only a theory. They can't PROVE that it is a fact. They just made up a story that goes along with the evidence that they choose is relevant.
They either don't know about, or refuse to believe in the concept of the Reaper. We know them to exist.
So I theorize that the wildlife on Eingana was wiped out by the Reapers.
PROVE ME WRONG.
#1059
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 05:58
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Sisterofshane wrote...
Still why it is only a theory. They can't PROVE that it is a fact.
Okay. Maybe that planet description is wrong. I suppose that means that description is useless to us as players.
If that planet description is wrong then what else is wrong?
EDI's information on Cerberus maybe?
Oh ****, that is wrong if ME3 is anything to go by. So I guess the joke is on me after all.
I can at least console myself with the fact that you can't prove any of your assumptions concerning eezo conatimation and clean up either. It's all just your "theory".
#1060
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:01
Sisterofshane
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
Still why it is only a theory. They can't PROVE that it is a fact.
Okay. Maybe that planet description is wrong. I suppose that means that description is useless to us as players.
If that planet description is wrong then what else is wrong?
EDI's information on Cerberus maybe?
Oh ****, that is wrong if ME3 is anything to go by. So I guess the joke is on me after all.
I can at least console myself with the fact that you can't prove any of your assumptions concerning eezo conatimation and clean up either. It's all just your "theory".
I'm also not trying to convince anybody to go submit themselves to the Reapers for processing, based upon one piece of shoddy evidence.
#1061
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:02
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Sisterofshane wrote...
I'm also not trying to convince anybody to go submit themselves to the Reapers for processing, based upon one piece of shoddy evidence.
Mmm, I think my evidence holds up pretty well.
Whether you are convinced or not, it won't matter. The choice will be made for you.
You can't stop the inevitable.
#1062
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:05
Humanoid_Typhoon
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Especially evidence presented by a person who on another thread is claiming to have the key to victory but on this one,we are all doomed and humanity should just jump into the blender.Sisterofshane wrote...
I'm also not trying to convince anybody to go submit themselves to the Reapers for processing, based upon one piece of shoddy evidence.
#1063
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:06
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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Especially evidence presented by a person who on another thread is claiming to have the key to victory but on this one,we are all doomed and humanity should just jump into the blender.
Wait, are you talking about me?
What is the key to victory I hold?
As far as I know I possess no such key.
If I did I wouldn't have made this thread.
#1064
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:10
Humanoid_Typhoon
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You must have multiple personalities,you are consistent in claiming that the base=victory,then you claim you will sacrifice everyone to save humanity and you will win,then you come on here and say "That's it man,game over GAME OVER!"
#1065
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:15
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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
You must have multiple personalities,you are consistent in claiming that the base=victory,
No, no, no, you twerp.
As I see you are confused I will break this down for you.
The Collector base has the POSSIBILITY of being the decisive asset that allows us to defeat the Reapers.
However that is just a possibility. In Collector base threads I argue that destroying the Collector base is a poor decision because it wastes this possibility.
#1066
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:17
Twizz089
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
Still why it is only a theory. They can't PROVE that it is a fact.
Okay. Maybe that planet description is wrong. I suppose that means that description is useless to us as players.
If that planet description is wrong then what else is wrong?
EDI's information on Cerberus maybe?
Oh ****, that is wrong if ME3 is anything to go by. So I guess the joke is on me after all.
I can at least console myself with the fact that you can't prove any of your assumptions concerning eezo conatimation and clean up either. It's all just your "theory".
The same thing can be said about every theory on this thread... including yours
#1067
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:18
Humanoid_Typhoon
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Petty insults.In any case,you have lost credibility to both arguments,to argue that we lose no matter what you have to acknowledge that the base makes no difference,but instead you continue to push for your contradictory arguements.
Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 06:22 .
#1068
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:22
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Twizz089 wrote...
The same thing can be said about every theory on this thread... including yours
I can't prove it since the ME universe isn't real, but I can look at the data provided by the game and formulate a reasonable hypothesis.
If very small concentrations of eezo can cause birth defects in cancer in a significant proportion of exposed humans, then very large concentrations can cause much larger incidents of birth defects and cancer. Perhaps even increasing the severity of these symptoms.
#1069
Guest_laecraft_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 07:20
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What makes you think that a human Reaper will have any of humanity's DNA? For all we know, they're simply using our genetic material to randomize their own DNA. Or maybe what's in the new Reaper isn't even a DNA in the real sense of the word, but something else. Maybe they found that due to the aggressive nature of humanity our DNA will make a very vigorous randomizer.
Our knowledge of Reaper biology is non-existent. Aside from the Reapers' words, there is no reason to believe that the species they use for the birth of their own is actually preserved in any way in the newborn Reaper. Perhaps they're simply using humanity as a fuel for their own fire, nothing more. Maybe that fire has particularly high temperature, just the perfect degree for their forge.
And even if there's something of our genetic material in the Reaper, what's the point? We can't do anything with that genetic material at all. We can't evolve further. We can't build our own destiny, can't create anything, can't conquer the galaxy. We're just one of the many, and so we shall always be until the end of time, until one of the new "lowly" organic species manages to destroy the Reapers once and for all, like life should, because life evolves, because life always prevails. And they will inherit the galaxy, and it won't be us, because we gave up before the fight.
Why would anyone join the Reapers, anyway? Existence for the sake of existence? I have high contempt for their kind. Even the geth have more meaning to them, because they're yet to discover the purpose of their existence, just like us all. The Reapers, on the other hand, are just automatons who follow the set routine. They destroy advanced organic life every cycle, and they sleep the rest of the time. Without organic life, they'd have no purpose for existence. They don't even do anything aside from harvesting.
They're just a bunch of losers, composed of those species who failed to defeat the Reapers. It's like the opposite of natural selection. Why join the losers? The Reapers aren't infallible. Their super-thorough search failed before, and the Protheans weren't even warned.
They relied heavily on the element of surprise, and now it's for the first time that they have to act without it. If Milky Way is ever going to have a chance, it's now. If they win this cycle, they're going to wipe out every last trace of their existence, they'll be very, very thorough. Not sloppy like the last time. They simply can't afford this disaster happen again. The following species won't have a chance. We can't just through this opening away. It's a once in eternity opportunity!
Let's see how well they manage when they have to act outside of their nice set routine and actually improvise on the battlefield. I bet they're aren't very used to losing their own kind and actually dying. No doubt it would come as a shock and demoralize at least some of them.
And maybe we'll be able to communicate with them. Or maybe we'll be able to communicate with the indoctrinated who communicate with them. They'll have to rely heavily on the indoctrinated organics to minimize their own losses. And this way, a lot of intel can leak to our side. Information about the Reapers, their goals and their weaknesses. Something we can use. Some of the indoctrinated are highly conflicted about their loyalties, especially if turned in a short amount of time, and it's going to be the matter of days or weeks. Even husks can talk - during the first few days, apparently, until the memory of speech fades entirely with the rest of their identity.
The Reapers' lives are highly important to them, considering that they live for so long and they can only create new ones every cycle. They have three objectives - using an organic species to create a new Reaper, extinction of all advanced organic life to ensure the surprised attack for the next cycle, and minimizing their own losses. Those are difficult objectives, and they're guaranteed to come into conflict. Maybe we can trap some Reapers in a system and take them hostage. Maybe we can draw their attention from the Earth to somewhere.
In any case, it's worth a fight, we drew a lucky ticket with the Protheans, and at the end, it's far better to be simply destroyed than have our death fuel the enemy's rebirth.
Our knowledge of Reaper biology is non-existent. Aside from the Reapers' words, there is no reason to believe that the species they use for the birth of their own is actually preserved in any way in the newborn Reaper. Perhaps they're simply using humanity as a fuel for their own fire, nothing more. Maybe that fire has particularly high temperature, just the perfect degree for their forge.
And even if there's something of our genetic material in the Reaper, what's the point? We can't do anything with that genetic material at all. We can't evolve further. We can't build our own destiny, can't create anything, can't conquer the galaxy. We're just one of the many, and so we shall always be until the end of time, until one of the new "lowly" organic species manages to destroy the Reapers once and for all, like life should, because life evolves, because life always prevails. And they will inherit the galaxy, and it won't be us, because we gave up before the fight.
Why would anyone join the Reapers, anyway? Existence for the sake of existence? I have high contempt for their kind. Even the geth have more meaning to them, because they're yet to discover the purpose of their existence, just like us all. The Reapers, on the other hand, are just automatons who follow the set routine. They destroy advanced organic life every cycle, and they sleep the rest of the time. Without organic life, they'd have no purpose for existence. They don't even do anything aside from harvesting.
They're just a bunch of losers, composed of those species who failed to defeat the Reapers. It's like the opposite of natural selection. Why join the losers? The Reapers aren't infallible. Their super-thorough search failed before, and the Protheans weren't even warned.
They relied heavily on the element of surprise, and now it's for the first time that they have to act without it. If Milky Way is ever going to have a chance, it's now. If they win this cycle, they're going to wipe out every last trace of their existence, they'll be very, very thorough. Not sloppy like the last time. They simply can't afford this disaster happen again. The following species won't have a chance. We can't just through this opening away. It's a once in eternity opportunity!
Let's see how well they manage when they have to act outside of their nice set routine and actually improvise on the battlefield. I bet they're aren't very used to losing their own kind and actually dying. No doubt it would come as a shock and demoralize at least some of them.
And maybe we'll be able to communicate with them. Or maybe we'll be able to communicate with the indoctrinated who communicate with them. They'll have to rely heavily on the indoctrinated organics to minimize their own losses. And this way, a lot of intel can leak to our side. Information about the Reapers, their goals and their weaknesses. Something we can use. Some of the indoctrinated are highly conflicted about their loyalties, especially if turned in a short amount of time, and it's going to be the matter of days or weeks. Even husks can talk - during the first few days, apparently, until the memory of speech fades entirely with the rest of their identity.
The Reapers' lives are highly important to them, considering that they live for so long and they can only create new ones every cycle. They have three objectives - using an organic species to create a new Reaper, extinction of all advanced organic life to ensure the surprised attack for the next cycle, and minimizing their own losses. Those are difficult objectives, and they're guaranteed to come into conflict. Maybe we can trap some Reapers in a system and take them hostage. Maybe we can draw their attention from the Earth to somewhere.
In any case, it's worth a fight, we drew a lucky ticket with the Protheans, and at the end, it's far better to be simply destroyed than have our death fuel the enemy's rebirth.
#1070
Posté 02 août 2011 - 07:32
Humanoid_Typhoon
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And that...is Human Nature.laecraft wrote...
at the end, it's far better to be simply destroyed than have our death fuel the enemy's rebirth.
Live free or die hard.
Not the movie.
Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 07:33 .
#1071
Posté 02 août 2011 - 08:49
Twizz089
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Twizz089 wrote...
The same thing can be said about every theory on this thread... including yours
I can't prove it since the ME universe isn't real, but I can look at the data provided by the game and formulate a reasonable hypothesis.
If very small concentrations of eezo can cause birth defects in cancer in a significant proportion of exposed humans, then very large concentrations can cause much larger incidents of birth defects and cancer. Perhaps even increasing the severity of these symptoms.
And you dont see how arguing a point that cant be proven, nor disproven is pointless?
Modifié par Twizz089, 02 août 2011 - 08:52 .
#1072
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:07
Humanoid_Typhoon
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The same could be said of the CB decision...or most threads for that matter.Twizz089 wrote...
And you dont see how arguing a point that cant be proven, nor disproven is pointless?
Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 09:09 .
#1074
Posté 02 août 2011 - 10:26
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Dear lord! This thread went from the power of eezo on a planet, to the elements of story telling in ME2, to the collector base decisions?
Lets just let this die already, and hold hands and sing together.
Lets just let this die already, and hold hands and sing together.
