2463 réponses à ce sujet

[SJK93]

Chewin3 wrote...

SJK93 wrote...

As a side note, I find this incredibly entertaining.

Posting things like that will just get you a temporary ban.

Yeah, I'll stop then. Didn't know.

(All right, page 54)

Modifié par SJK93, 03 août 2011 - 10:00 .

[Bogsnot1]

Only took me about 45-50 minutes to skim through and find the insults. Its not like Saphra was going to come up with anything constructive in that time.

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 03 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

True enough.Great motivator.

[SJK93]

Yes. Well done.

[Twizz089]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Sisterofshane wrote...

If even the Battle of the Citadel doesn't worry you then nothing I can say will ever change your mind.


[/quote]


Were the Krogan there for that fight? What about the true geth? What about the drell, the volus cant fight but they specialize in cheap turian weaponary to outfit ships.   And what about the massive Quarian Flotilla? Do you not think that with proper funding they could get their ships battle ready?  And what about the rachni?

If the combined strength of every race was at the battle of the citadel then maybe you would have a point, but it wasnt so you dont.  Coupled that with the fact that all reapers arent as big as sovereign and the battle of the citadel becomes even more iirrelevant in trying to gauge our chances of victory.

Modifié par Twizz089, 03 août 2011 - 12:11 .

[Twizz089]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The combined might of all the races in the known galaxy won't amount to enough to topple the Reapers.

It's not like you can throw all of those forces together in one pitched battle.

Your first statment is an assumption with no evidence backing it..

As far as your second statment, Why couldnt you send the bulk of your forces to the same location? I dont understand your logic.  Will the reapers be divided up across the galaxy as well? If they are then we wouldnt need all of our forces in one spot would we? 

If the reapers had 10 ships and we had 10 ships, 10 = 10 = 10 no matter how you divide it up across the galaxy and with the tech,  forces can mobilze quickly, so I dont understand your point.

And I must stress that the histroy of ME doesnt not prove that the protheans lost because they were outnumbered, or because they where out gunned or overpowered, they lost because the reapers took control of the rallys and isolated them. The reapers used their combined strength to pick apart divided strength.  We already stopped that from happening to us.

Modifié par Twizz089, 03 août 2011 - 12:46 .

[Homebound]

If we have 1 spectre, and the reapers have 1 spectre, the reapers will turn up with less spectres than we do.

i think the math speaks for itself. We CAN win this.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 03 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[Arijharn]

You are guestimating greatly at the relative size of other naval forces, hell, you even guessed at the size of the Alliance navy too which makes it as much of an asspull as everything else in this thread.

Considering how militaristic the Turian's are, I don't 'think' it's correct to say that they only have x amount of vessels of varying configurations because:
a) The Treaty of Farixen doesn't exist to limit them, only to keep in check the other species.
They are the majority partners in Council peacekeeping patrols, implying to me impressive fleet assets that are by necessity scattered throughout council space, as part of performing their duties, in addition to enforcing the Krogan DMZ and client protection for the Volus.

In an up front engagement with the Reapers though with combined forces arrayed against the Reapers though, we'd be boned without a doubt, and here's why:
a) Numerical and technological superiority on the account of the Reapers in gross tonnage. Note however that the Reapers don't seem to have any GARDIAN batteries however (part meta-gaming observation), which may mean that Carrier/Fighter escorts may have an added sense of tactical superiority... they have to get close first though.
The lack of interspecies co-operation. Even if the Council helps to facilitate communications between member species, it's unlikely that tactical command can be adequately shared between species fluently due to different software/hardware setups etc. For comparison, Australia uses similar gear to the United Kingdom and the USA. Why? Because it allows greater tactical sharing of data if it's similar sort of tech etc, etc. The Turian's may work closely with a paragon Alliance military in the wake of the battle of the citadel, but do they work closely with the Salarian's? The Asari? The Elcor? what about the Hanar in joint training/operations? The answer is no, because if they did... the Elcor and the Hanar would already be part of the Council...
c) Obviously, the Krogan don't actually have a naval fleet, and haven't since the end of the Krogan Rebellions and the enforcement of the DMZ. Krogan military assets are therefore auxiliaries to other navies, which means that they're completely worthless in a pitched naval battle.
d) The only real option is the Geth then, but that's kinda hit in miss; whether you re-wrote them, destroyed them or even potentially have Overlord (that is, if you can wrest control away from Cerberus).

I'm actually very interested to see how BioWare approaches this, if they do. Because to me it would seem that the Reapers would actually want to force a major naval engagement, because they should be confident they should smash those puny organics. Obviously, Reaper's will suffer losses, but even if the Reaper numbers into their hundreds, their sheer gross tonnage should outweigh the sapient's alliance by several orders of magnitude.

[Dexi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Talk page of the wiki doesn't make it clear where they are getting the 200 vessels number from, though they do mention that the figure comes from the start of the First Contact War. That might be mentioned in Revelation or maybe in the Evolution comic.

So the fleet may be bigger. They also seem to have a disagreement about the Alliance's position of dominance regarding the aftermath of the Battle of the Citadel.

So sure, the fleets may be larger than I suggested (not the deadnoughts though).

Alliance guys don't go with dreadnoughts... They go with carriers. 

Reapers don't have GARDIAN type defenses from what we know so far. They do have the Occulus, but they can be dealt with by interceptors, while the fighters go for the Reapers.

The galactic fleet should NEVER attack the entire Reaper fleet head-on. But the Reapers, as we know, are scattered.  A galactic fleet would have no problems in taking out the Reaper pockets, as long as they use smart tactics... swarm the lill Reapers with the fighters, focus fire on the bigger Reapers by a part of the cruissers and dreadnoughts, pre-position and conceal the other ones in the rear Reaper positions to make sure they can't pick easy mass kills and decimate the fleet. If some of the ships are equipped with Thanix, even better. If you can position the Thanix guys in the rear, so much better.
Ambushes and making sure you initiate the fight with the Reapers, crucial.


Also, I highly doubt the Reapers will fight until the last man... If they see unfavorable odds, they'll most likely retreat, regroup and attack at a later point. 

Also, do not compare our odds with the ones of the Protheans'... it's silly.  

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I'm going by Ascension in this case and in that novel it is stated the Alliance is left as the single largest military force in Citadel Space.

Given that everybody has their own "canon" in their games, anything mentioned in Ascension can be considered as a guestimate at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.

What about viral attacks? The Collectors were apparently capable of it as they had the Alliance Navy by the neck during ME2.

When at any time in ME2 did the Collectors take on the Alliance Navy and perform viral attacks on them?

[Someone With Mass]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

When at any time in ME2 did the Collectors take on the Alliance Navy and perform viral attacks on them?

By my count? Never.

The Alliance would've completely butt raped the Collectors if they tried something against Earth or any other human colonies within Alliance space.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

What the...take on the Alliance Navy and perform viral attacks?

[Bogsnot1]

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 03 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

lol bog

[LiquidLogic2020]

A deus ex machina will defete the reapers, you all know it will happen.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...

A deus ex machina will defete the reapers, you all know it will happen.

Only time will tell.

Defeating the Reapers may not mean simply 'blow them all up'.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 03 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try to keep things on topic, please. This is the only warning this thread will get, based on the recent pages of spam and bickering. Bans handed out.

[Twizz089]

Saphra Deden wrote...


There is no reason there couldn't be a thousand Reapers, or even more.

The numbers (and yes, they are estimations) are not looking good for us.


I don't imagine the Reapers would sit around and let us amass our forces like that.

 There is no proof that there are more then a few hundred reapers.  Again you are assuming.  You are also assuming the size of the reapers, for all we know Sovereign was the biggest, which he had to be as his task was the most dangerous and the most important.

Lets look at how the protheans where defeated, they were divided up and isolated into small groups, then slowly defeated. You do not need thousands of ship to defeat small groups of scattered forces that didnt even know they were under attack. 

Also if the Reapers have thousands of ships, why did it take centuries to wipe them out?

"I don't imagine the Reapers would sit around and let us amass our forces like that."

It took centuries to wipe out the Protheans, and that was with them divided and locked out of the rallys.  Unlike the protheans we still control the rallys, and might even be able to learn how to isolate the reapers from using the rallys.  I dont see how the reapers can stop use from amassing our forces.  Unless you assume the war will be over in less then a week, we have enough time to amass a counter force.

Modifié par Twizz089, 03 août 2011 - 06:24 .

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Your first statment is an assumption with no evidence backing it.

Well the Alliance Navy is one of the biggest navies in the galaxy with around 200 vessels. Only about a dozen of which are Dreadnoughts/Carriers.

After the battle of the Citadel it seems the individual fleets of the (former) Council races are actually smaller, though they presumably do have more dreadnoughts.

The quarians have around 50,000 vessels, but we don't know how many of them are actually formidably armed.

The total number of dreadnoughts in amongst the four biggest Council races is somewhere around 50. How many other dreadnoughts do you think are out there in the galaxy? It can't be too many because if it was those other minor races in Citadel space and without would be much more prominent.

I doubt there's another 50 out there.

So let's be generous and say 30.

80 dreadnoughts/carriers and a few hundred cruisers and frigates...

Versus potentially an equal or greater number of Reapers. Remember their cycle is at least 37 million years old. It may actually be many times older than that.

There is no reason there couldn't be a thousand Reapers, or even more.

Assuming something only like 200 hundred is being very conservative and based on that cutscene with Harbringer those Reapers we saw are all of roughly similar size.

If Harbringer is anything like Sovereign then those Reapers are dreadnought class and the only thing that can realistically take on a dreadnought is another dreadnought or a carrier.

The numbers (and yes, they are estimations) are not looking good for us.

Not when even one Reaper can hold off an entire fleet. We may destroy a lot of Reapers, but we'll be destroyed in the process and many more Reapers will be left standing.

As far as your second statment, Why couldnt you send the bulk of your forces to the same location?

Limited space around the mass relays. It takes the Migrant Fleet days/weeks to traverse even a single mass relay. It would take the same to move a very large fleet consisting of hundreds of large vessels. Obviously our battle fleet won't be nearly as big as the Migrant Fleet, but it will still be quite large.

I don't imagine the Reapers would sit around and let us amass our forces like that.

Now we don't know how spread out they (the Reapers) will be in the galaxy. So far all indications are that their main objective and force concentration is Earth. After all, humans seem to be their main target.

If the reapers had 10 ships and we had 10 ships, 10 = 10 = 10 no matter how you divide it up across the galaxy and with the tech,  forces can mobilze quickly, so I dont understand your point.

The one thing that we are all forgetting to mention is that the destruction of enemy defenses is not the only objective of the Reapers.  They also presumably need to harvest our resources and , well, us.  This will not happen instantaneously.  This entire process, in fact, may take hundreds of years (as evidenced by Vigil).

So I ask you Saphra, would it not be possible to just use YOUR tactics, retreating until the Reapers are forced to give up pursuit, or even intentionally hiding our forces (Remember, they lost out on access to all of our possible locations when Sovereign failed to take control of the citadel), and then when they begin to "reap", and they presumably have their forces dvided up, attack them?

Even if we only take out one or two Reapers each time, every loss for them is a permanent loss.  As long as we remain capable of rebuilding part of our fleet, it's possible that overtime we will inflict enough damage that winning a battle head on might be possible.

The loss of many worlds, or even an entire galactic spieces (say, Humans), would be an acceptable loss to me if it means the defeat of the Reapers and the continuation of organic life within the galaxy.