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We Can't Save Earth, We Can't Beat the Reapers


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#1351
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Sisterofshane wrote...

So I ask you Saphra, would it not be possible to just use YOUR tactics, retreating until the Reapers are forced to give up pursuit, or even intentionally hiding our forces (Remember, they lost out on access to all of our possible locations when Sovereign failed to take control of the citadel), and then when they begin to "reap", and they presumably have their forces dvided up, attack them?


No, because we need those planets to survive. All Reapers need is, potentially, a place to discharge their drive cores and possibly a place to refuel. They don't have populations to feed or medical supplies to worry about.

The Migrant Fleet couldn't survive on its own without setting down somewhere. They rely on handouts and donations from the settled galaxy. Even then, they're gradually dying off.

How would you keep your fleet fueled, Sisterofshane? Organic designed ships need a fuel station, but fuel stations don't build themselves.

How will you keep everyone fed?

You can hide your fleet, but you can't hide your planets. One extra-net scan will tell the Reapers were most settlemetns in the galaxy are. Any others will be too small to worry about until after the war is won. Then they do a thorough clean-up, perhaps staying around for centuries or even many thousands of years of if necessary to re-engineer their trap.

You can't move planets either. The Reapers find them and open fire, then they retreat. If you don't have your fleets there to scare them off then they can take the more efficient strategy of grabbing asteroids and comets and slamming those into your planets instead. (this is what should have been done with the rachni instead of uplifting the krogan)


Sisterofshane wrote...

Even if we only take out one or two Reapers each time, every loss for them is a permanent loss.  As long as we remain capable of rebuilding part of our fleet, it's possible that overtime we will inflict enough damage that winning a battle head on might be possible.


What makes you think you'll be able to do that without any kind of planetary infrastructure to support you? If you are waiting around long enough to actually destroy a few Reapers then I guarantee you are losing more than just one or two ships in return. You'll be losing lots of ships.

You can probably stave off defeat for a long time, but in the end your fleet will rot from the inside out.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 03 août 2011 - 06:42 .


#1352
Sisterofshane

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

There is no proof that there are more then a few hundred reapers.


Actually there is no hard proof that there are any Reapers at all anywhere.


Yes, because Sovereign and Harbinger were not only schizophrenic (refering to themselves as "We"),but also imaginary.

And the Game didn't show us the Reaper fleet descending upon the Milky Way Galaxy.

And the devs haven't said that at the beginning of ME 3, the reapers WILL BE HERE.

We know for a fact that they exist, and in potentially large numbers.  Twizz is actually correct on this one.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

You are also assuming the size of the reapers, for all me know Sovereign was the biggest, which he had to be as his task was the most dangerous and the most important.


I agree that Sovereign was probably among the toughest seeing as 'he' had to operate completely alone without any real back-up. However towards that end Sovereign would also have been a bit of a generalist. It would need to do everything well to be self sufficient. Other Reapers designed for more specialized roles could be even more lethal and/or harder to destroy. Sovereign relied heavily on espionage and subterfuge.


Sovereign relied heavily upon the IGNORANCE of the galaxy.  Yes, he was hiding, but at the beginning of the ME1, we have actual video footage of him.  We could prove to the council that a massive, potentially advanced warship was working with the Geth fleet, even if we couldn't prove that it was sentient.  The council ignored the relevence of our video footage, until it was too late.

Though I agree that not all ships will potentially have sovereign's design.  I think they proved that in a demo when a giant reaper jumps out from under the very soil itself, and Shep has to lure it to a spot to be destroyed.

#1353
FrEtZy21

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ill never join the reapers

MY aim is to destroy harbinger and the reaper fleet
spectre john shepard out ;)

#1354
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It's completely absurd to think that we can't win. It's a damn game. If it's unwinnable, people won't buy it.

Seriously, some people...

#1355
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Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, because Sovereign and Harbinger were not only schizophrenic (refering to themselves as "We"),but also imaginary.


That "we" could easily be a reference to the internal programs. "Each a nation".

However make no mistake, other than Sovereign you have no physical proof of any Reapers besides Sovereign. You have a lot of circumstantial evidence, but nothing indisputable.

Shepard doesn't see cinematics the way we do. He'd have never seen that horde of Reapers descending.

Anyway, I was just pointing that out, not making it a point of serious discussion. It's just an interesting thing to keep in mind when speculating about Reaper numbers.

#1356
Humanoid_Typhoon

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*Ignores datapad handed to him by Joker*

#1357
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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

*Ignores datapad handed to him by Joker*


The datapad isn't proof of anything. Even if it contains schematics and blue-prints it still isn't proof of a Reaper armada. A skeptic could argue it is just plans for a Reaper that was never built.

#1358
LiquidLogic2020

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

*Ignores datapad handed to him by Joker*


The datapad isn't proof of anything. Even if it contains schematics and blue-prints it still isn't proof of a Reaper armada. A skeptic could argue it is just plans for a Reaper that was never built.


Clutch those straws tighter and maybe your point will become valid.

#1359
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LiquidLogic2020 wrote...

Clutch those straws tighter and maybe your point will become valid.


How is it not valid? Do you care to elaborate?

If during the 70's I brought you the schematics for a stealth bomber that wouldn't prove the stealth bomber was a real vehicle sitting in a bunker somewhere. It would be compelling evidence that the military was planning or in the process of building such a craft, but not proof of the craft itself.

For actual proof of the Reaper armada you need hard data. Imaging, radar, and such.

Tracking the signals sent from the Reaper implants going into dark space is a very good start, but all it proves is that something is in dark space. It's a good eyebrow raiser, but not definitive proof.

#1360
Sisterofshane

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

So I ask you Saphra, would it not be possible to just use YOUR tactics, retreating until the Reapers are forced to give up pursuit, or even intentionally hiding our forces (Remember, they lost out on access to all of our possible locations when Sovereign failed to take control of the citadel), and then when they begin to "reap", and they presumably have their forces dvided up, attack them?


No, because we need those planets to survive. All Reapers need is, potentially, a place to discharge their drive cores and possibly a place to refuel. They don't have populations to feed or medical supplies to worry about.

The Migrant Fleet couldn't survive on its own without setting down somewhere. They rely on handouts and donations from the settled galaxy. Even then, they're gradually dying off.

How would you keep your fleet fueled, Sisterofshane? Organic designed ships need a fuel station, but fuel stations don't build themselves.

How will you keep everyone fed?

You can hide your fleet, but you can't hide your planets. One extra-net scan will tell the Reapers were most settlemetns in the galaxy are. Any others will be too small to worry about until after the war is won. Then they do a thorough clean-up, perhaps staying around for centuries or even many thousands of years of if necessary to re-engineer their trap.

You can't move planets either. The Reapers find them and open fire, then they retreat. If you don't have your fleets there to scare them off then they can take the more efficient strategy of grabbing asteroids and comets and slamming those into your planets instead. (this is what should have been done with the rachni instead of uplifting the krogan)


Why would the Reapers need us to gather resources?  Why would they be coming to our galaxy in such a hurry as to expose themselves to a united galactic flleet?  One reson might be arrogance, but I think that it's possible that they NEED  our resources themselves to keep running, too.  Otherwise, why not wait until your enemy is complacent again, and then strike when a surprise attack would be the most advantageous? (we know that they favor this tactic).

If I were Harbinger, and I saw Shepard (one person) foil my plans not once, not twice, but THREE seperate times, I would definitely wait until they were long dead and FORGOTTEN, if I could afford to wait.

And while Reapers do not need to worry about food or medical supplies, they do need to worry about sustaining damage to themselves.  We have no evidence that Reapers have any sort of a "self-repair" mechanism, and they definitely do not tend to their own ( as evidenced by the derelict reaper).

There are many, many planets capable of sustaining production and supply lines.  For me to worry about this would mean that I would worry about the Reapers having a potentially large enough force to swarm down on EVERY PLANET in the galaxy in sufficient numbers to interrupt this process.  I just do not believe that this scenario is possible.

The more spread out the Reapers make themselves, the more vulnerable they become.  They are not going to expose themselves to unneccessary danger just to interrupt our supply lines.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Even if we only take out one or two Reapers each time, every loss for them is a permanent loss.  As long as we remain capable of rebuilding part of our fleet, it's possible that overtime we will inflict enough damage that winning a battle head on might be possible.


What makes you think you'll be able to do that without any kind of planetary infrastructure to support you? If you are waiting around long enough to actually destroy a few Reapers then I guarantee you are losing more than just one or two ships in return. You'll be losing lots of ships.

You can probably stave off defeat for a long time, but in the end your fleet will rot from the inside out.




Yes, a lot of infastructure may be lost, but that doesn't necessarily stop military production.  And it will take a LONG time before ALL infastructure is crippled enough to do any damage to our war effort.

Go to the wiki and look at the list of all known planets within the galaxy.  How many Reapers to planets do you think are necessary in order for it's (the entire galaxy's) infastructure to be crippled?  More then one, I would assume.  Two?  Ten?

Let's say that ten Reapers are all that is necessary to cripple a planet.  That means 1300 Reapers would be necessary in order to cover JUST the known homeworlds within the Galaxy.  They would need FAR MORE in order to cover EVERY WORLD in the galaxy.

Based on the 37 million number, if the Reapers managed to create a new Reaper every fifty thousand years (and EDI already speculated they may have failed at least once), there would only be 740 Reapers.

And, based on the fact that one Reaper needed a very large fleet (of Geth) just to take on a portion of our fleet without sustaining damage to itself,  I don't think that the Reapers would spread themselves this thin.

Add to that the fact that we now have better weapons and armoring techniques, and the Reapers *should* no longer have the element of surprise, we should be better equipped to disable and kill them then we were in the battle of the citadel.  Meaning that we might sustain less loss then we did then.

So, by my reasoning, there will be infastructure, there will be supplies, and there is a possibility that we can minimize damage to our fleet while maximizing damage to theirs.

#1361
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Sisterofshane wrote...

Why would the Reapers need us to gather resources?


I never said they'd need us to do anything but die.


Sisterofshane wrote...

Why would they be coming to our galaxy in such a hurry as to expose themselves to a united galactic flleet?


The longer they wait the better our chances of victory.

We may get complacent, but we'll also become more technologically advanced. It's bad enough we've got a dead Reaper (or two) to examine and improve ourselves with. We've also got the Collector base or its remains. The tech gab between us and the Reapers is narrowing. If the Reapers wait another thousand years they just might run into an enemy who is as advanced as they are, or worse. Without raw resources at their disposal the Reapers can't do much in dark space but hibernate.

Shepard's not a concern. The Commander is just a fortunate mortal who happens to be in the right place at the right time. He can be killed, the Reapers know this. One victory does not imply another.

Unless the Reapers are genre savvy (like TIM) they have no reason to believe Shepard is anything that exceptional.

Sisterofshane wrote...

And while Reapers do not need to worry about food or medical supplies, they do need to worry about sustaining damage to themselves.


So does your fleet in addition to all the other stuff I mentioned. The Reapers can stop and repair themselves while their brethren continue the pursuit.

The circumstances of the derelict Reaper's demise are unknown.

Sisterofshane wrote...

There are many, many planets capable of sustaining production and supply lines.


Not if the Reapers get to them.

Any virgin worlds you find will need to have the infrastructure built from scratch. That takes time and resources. Two things you will not have in any significant quantities.

The Reapers don't need to watch every planet in galaxy at once because you cannot reach every planet in the galaxy at once. They have much longer range than you do and a much better knowledge of the galaxy to boot.

Remember, current civilization has barely explored more than a fraction of the galaxy and an unknown portion of the relay network. The Reapers built the network and thus know every inch of it, every cluster within reach of every relay. There is only so far you can run.

The Reapers need only spread out if you do and spreading out will hurt you more than it will hurt them. A Reaper is far more self-sufficient than any of your fleets.

A nation, independent, free of all weakness.

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, a lot of infastructure may be lost, but that doesn't necessarily stop military production.


Umm... yeah, it does. Without infrastructure you can't produce anything. Period.

The Reapers don't have to cripple all of it. Blocking your access to it is enough and if you are on the run that is exactly what will happen (as you'll be doing it to yourself). Once again, you don't have unlimited range.

By the way, one Reaper would be sufficient to cripple a planet with repeated strikes. A couple of days or weeks is all it would take. One shot per city. Reaper wins.

#1362
Humanoid_Typhoon

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If they just sit on our infrastructure and bodyblock they spread their forces.

"Divide and conquer"<<that is how they beat everyone else,they cannot divide us by using the relays,but if they just sit around waiting for us to retake everything,we build our forces back up and strike.

The reapers represent the ultimate danger,that isn't a disadvantage,not for us humans with our art of war (i'll go out on a whim and say the turians thrive in the thick of it)
"Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory. "-Sun Tzu.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 03 août 2011 - 07:49 .


#1363
Twizz089

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, because Sovereign and Harbinger were not only schizophrenic (refering to themselves as "We"),but also imaginary.


That "we" could easily be a reference to the internal programs. "Each a nation".

However make no mistake, other than Sovereign you have no physical proof of any Reapers besides Sovereign. You have a lot of circumstantial evidence, but nothing indisputable.

Shepard doesn't see cinematics the way we do. He'd have never seen that horde of Reapers descending.

Anyway, I was just pointing that out, not making it a point of serious discussion. It's just an interesting thing to keep in mind when speculating about Reaper numbers.




Saphra Deden you are contradicting yourself and proving my point.  Early you said there was thousands of reapers so we will be overwhelmed, this post by you proves my point that we dont know how many reapers are out there, its was elegantly put.. thank you.
 With that said, like I mentioned before a large part of the reapers victory over the protheans was the relay.  They didnt not win by sheer force and numbers, so why assume that they can beat a united galaxy in a head to head battle if they have not proven that they can?  I believe the key to fighting the reapers will be using the relay against them, even the "all mighty" reapers depended on the relay for past victories.

#1364
Shimmer_Gloom

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Saphra Deden, Why is the absolute certain end of life as we know it to live on as goo (or die) better than the alternative to fight against the Reapers and possibly win (or die)?


[This part adresses the first half of my sentance]

At least something of our race lives on. What little we know about Reapers indicates that they are are collective entity which internally at leat self identifies as its original. Thus Sovereign's internal programs refering to itself as "Nezara".

Harbringer keeps talking about genetic destiny and we know the Collectors were running genetics tests on humans. We saw how humans were being rendered down and pumped into the Reaper.

This indicates that something important about humanity, something related to our genetics, is incorporated into the Reaper.

Don't think of the human Reaper as a human, think of it as a new entity descended from humans.

This is better than fighting and dieing because it means the human genetic line will continue. Our species will continue to exert its will on the universe.

[This part adresses the second part of my sentence]

Otherwise we die out completely and the universe moves on without us, including the Reapers.


I annotated your qoute and bolded sections that I didn't want to be overlooked.  Again.

See you explained our first option very well, the part about giving up and letting us become genetic goo for the Reapers.  But you COMPLETELY glossed over the alternative to that, which is to fight and possibly win.

My question was 'Why is giving up better than fighting and possibly winning?'  What makes living as goo for Reapers better than living life as we know it in Mass Effect.  IE shooting people and having sex and flying around visiting uncharted worlds?

#1365
Shimmer_Gloom

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

If they just sit on our infrastructure and bodyblock they spread their forces.

"Divide and conquer"<<that is how they beat everyone else,they cannot divide us by using the relays,but if they just sit around waiting for us to retake everything,we build our forces back up and strike.

The reapers represent the ultimate danger,that isn't a disadvantage,not for us humans with our art of war (i'll go out on a whim and say the turians thrive in the thick of it)
"Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory. "-Sun Tzu.


You get a cookie for quoting Sun Tzu by the way.

#1366
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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

If they just sit on our infrastructure and bodyblock they spread their forces.


They don't have to sit and guard it. They just destroy it and check back every now and then (or leave a small sentry like a few occulus behind) to watch over it. If we try and rebuild it they return and pulverize it again.


Twizz089 wrote...

Early you said there was thousands of reapers so we will be overwhelmed, this post by you proves my point that we dont know how many reapers are out there, its was elegantly put.. thank you.


I never said there were thousands of Reapers, I said there very well could be and that there are likely at least hundreds.


Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

But you COMPLETELY glossed over the alternative to that, which is to fight and possibly win.


A slim chance isn't worth fighting for, not with so much at stake.

#1367
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Saphra would you answer shimmers question,you have completely glossed over it multiple times,it is paramount to your argument but you keep avoiding it.

#1368
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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra would you answer shimmers question,you have completely glossed over it multiple times,it is paramount to your argument but you keep avoiding it.


I've answered that question many times as I've been asked it by many people.

If Shimmer wants my answer she can go back through the thread and find one of my numerous responses to it.

Frankly though, I'm quite sure I already did answer it in a post replying to her a few pages back.

#1369
Shimmer_Gloom

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Saphra: "A slim chance isn't worth fighting for, not with so much at stake."

Please qualify this statement. What is at stake? And why is it not worth fighting for the lives we are used to?

#1370
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra would you answer shimmers question,you have completely glossed over it multiple times,it is paramount to your argument but you keep avoiding it.


I've answered that question many times as I've been asked it by many people.

If Shimmer wants my answer she can go back through the thread and find one of my numerous responses to it.

Frankly though, I'm quite sure I already did answer it in a post replying to her a few pages back.

Every answer you've had to it has been that you have already answered it,so if you would please,clarify one last time so we can "get it out of the way"

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 03 août 2011 - 08:09 .


#1371
Shimmer_Gloom

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra would you answer shimmers question,you have completely glossed over it multiple times,it is paramount to your argument but you keep avoiding it.


I've answered that question many times as I've been asked it by many people.

If Shimmer wants my answer she can go back through the thread and find one of my numerous responses to it.

Frankly though, I'm quite sure I already did answer it in a post replying to her a few pages back.


No, no.  I've been following this since last night.  You never qualify your statements.  In fact its the same 'there is too much at stake' statement and I think it needs to well... it needs more everything.

I don't want to make your argument for you.  I don't want to try and extrapolate your values.

You should probably explain yourself.

#1372
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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Saphra: "A slim chance isn't worth fighting for, not with so much at stake."

Please qualify this statement. What is at stake? And why is it not worth fighting for the lives we are used to?


The future of the human race is at stake. What else would I be talking about?

#1373
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Saphra: "A slim chance isn't worth fighting for, not with so much at stake."

Please qualify this statement. What is at stake? And why is it not worth fighting for the lives we are used to?


The future of the human race is at stake. What else would I be talking about?



That isn't the part that you haven't clarified, the part in bold is

#1374
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It isn't worth fighting for the "lives we are used to" because the price of failure is total extinction.

Extinction is never an option.

#1375
Twizz089

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Saphra Deden wrote...

I never said there were thousands of Reapers, I said there very well could be and that there are likely at least hundreds.

 



So your admiting that your arguments are based on nothing and your "theories" lack evidence? Oh ok. At least your being honest.