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[SJK93]

ThePwener wrote...

Page 60? Gotta be ****ing kidding me.....

On to 70?

Modifié par SJK93, 04 août 2011 - 01:24 .

[ThePwener]

SJK93 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Page 60? Gotta be ****ing kidding me.....

On to 70?

*facepalm*

.....why the hell not.

[Darksaberexile]

SJK93 wrote...

They do have better shielding from what we've seen, but I don't think they're more manuverable. Sovereign was big and bulky looking. The Normandy was far more manuverable.

Not the best proof, but some evidence for them being more manuverable:
Virmire, after you meet the hologram of Sovereign and talk to him. (paraphrase) Joker: "That ship, Sovereign, just pulled a turn that would sheer any of our ships in half" (just a paraphrase for now, I'll get a more accurate quote next time i reach virmire lol).

I'm not for surrendering to the Reapers though, it's...not a good strategy. Vigil even said that during the entire extermination of the Protheans, no offer of surrender was ever given. it's kind of hard to surrender to something that doesn't care to let you surrender.

[SJK93]

Darksaberexile wrote...

SJK93 wrote...

They do have better shielding from what we've seen, but I don't think they're more manuverable. Sovereign was big and bulky looking. The Normandy was far more manuverable.

Not the best proof, but some evidence for them being more manuverable:
Virmire, after you meet the hologram of Sovereign and talk to him. (paraphrase) Joker: "That ship, Sovereign, just pulled a turn that would sheer any of our ships in half" (just a paraphrase for now, I'll get a more accurate quote next time i reach virmire lol).

I'm not for surrendering to the Reapers though, it's...not a good strategy. Vigil even said that during the entire extermination of the Protheans, no offer of surrender was ever given. it's kind of hard to surrender to something that doesn't care to let you surrender.

Ah, I forgot that quote from Joker. My bad.

[Sisterofshane]

Darksaberexile wrote...

SJK93 wrote...

They do have better shielding from what we've seen, but I don't think they're more manuverable. Sovereign was big and bulky looking. The Normandy was far more manuverable.

Not the best proof, but some evidence for them being more manuverable:
Virmire, after you meet the hologram of Sovereign and talk to him. (paraphrase) Joker: "That ship, Sovereign, just pulled a turn that would sheer any of our ships in half" (just a paraphrase for now, I'll get a more accurate quote next time i reach virmire lol).

I'm not for surrendering to the Reapers though, it's...not a good strategy. Vigil even said that during the entire extermination of the Protheans, no offer of surrender was ever given. it's kind of hard to surrender to something that doesn't care to let you surrender.

Good find on the quote Darksaberexile!

[Therefore_I_Am]

If you read "A Dissertation of ME" by that one guy from the steam forums, he gives an excellent and probable conclusion as to how the Reapers can be beaten. Read the Prothean Legacy part http://forums.steamp...d.php?t=2011810

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 04 août 2011 - 02:22 .

[robarcool]

Wow. Still going strong lol! Bioware, are you creating an unbeatable game?

[Rekkampum]

Shifty Assassin wrote...

We probably will win thanks to some story twist that makes the reapers vulnerable or something

Blasto the Hanar Spectre will save us.

[nicethugbert]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I see your indoctrination and raise you Lala Lala I Can't Hear Youuuuuuuuu.......

Maybe the Batarians will save the galaxy by blowing up the charon relay like Shepard did that other relay.

Blowing up the relay may not work for the reasons I outlined in my introductory post and elaborated on elsewhere while debating with Arijharn.

There are any number of ways the Reapers could see the destruction of the relay coming and escape.

Has anyone ever considered that the Reapers may wind up using that very tactic on us?

Yes, but you can't destroy your paste and eat it too.  Without the paste, they can't reproduce.  And, if they have to destroy the relays because Humans fight back well enough, they'll have to do the same for Asari, Turians, Quarians, and Batarians.  That leaves the Volus, Elcor, and Hanar.  They may as well just go back to dark space.  Destroying the relays would be an act of desperation on their part, not progress as they see it.

[Arijharn]

I say this as a person who identifies with trans-humanism, but I will not capitulate to the Reapers, because the Reapers represent a clear and fundamental 'dead-end' for the human race. The belief that you'd continue to exist as a Reaper-human sort of entity is as much of a 'blind leap of faith' as any argument that we can defeat the Reapers by force of arms.

I do not believe that Instrumentality (*cough* Reapers?) is the future for humanity, thus I will fight it. Call me old fashioned, but I like the human form (even if I think it can be aided by mechanical augmentations -- zomg, I really want Human Revolution to come out right now!) thus I will fight for our right to exist as we are and how we seek ourselves to become like aka by our own designs and not by some monstrous invaders from out of space. Put simply; the Reapers have nothing I want.

[Arijharn]

Heh 'debating with Arijharn'... which you lost! Again!

[thE SpACE hAMStER]

Rekkampum wrote...

Shifty Assassin wrote...

We probably will win thanks to some story twist that makes the reapers vulnerable or something

Blasto the Hanar Spectre will save us.

with backup from the all elcor cast of hamlet

[IronVanguard]

I'd made it halfway through the argument before I started right clicking and hoping for a renegade interrupt to pop up.
"We must join the Rea-" BOOT TO THE FACE

[Rekkampum]

IronVanguard wrote...

I'd made it halfway through the argument before I started right clicking and hoping for a renegade interrupt to pop up.
"We must join the Rea-" BOOT TO THE FACE

Hilarious. Me thinks Saphra's had some reaper tech directly implanted into her. It's a nice oppurtunist argument though.

[SJK93]

Can we please just let this die now? It's been entertaining and all, but I think it's lived a little too long.

[maximusffxi]

Your concerns about joining the reapers are understandable because the likelihood of completely destroying the reaper race is unlikely. The reapers will have a contingency plan. In considerations of past events in Mass Effect 2, humanity is at the point of no return, regardless of destroying or saving the collector base. The point of no return has passed. I’m not update on all codex information and new story plot lines, but I believe the point of surrender is gone, thanks to commander shepard , humanity is unlikely to become the next reaper, for humanity’s defiance only comes one option for the reapers, complete eradication of the human race. That being said the reapers will once again destroy all organic life and will return to see another organic race developed into the next reaper candidate in 50,000 or whatever years it takes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

You can't produce ships or infrastructure faster than they can destroy it - and they can destroy it.

This is not a known variable. Can they destroy it? Most likely, yes. Can they destroy it quickly enough to render out-producing them infeasible? Unknown.

Known. It takes months, years to produce ships.
It takes seconds to destroy them.

A single reaper can destroy a hundered shipyards within 1 month. And in that 1 month, you're not going to have a single ship ready.

Out-producing an enemy only works if the enemy is kept busy and cannot strike directly at your manufacturing centers.

And that doens't work on reapers. As I sad, they are faster and more manouverable, they got a lot more power (far larger mass effect cores), os it's a safe bet their FTL drives charge faster to boot.

How do you protect 100 shipyards?
Do you concetrate your fleet around 1? If you do that, the others are toast.
Spread it out? Then the reapers can cheery pick and attack in greater force where tehy won't - your defenses won't hold. And as soon as that shipyard is toast, they cna pick another.
Send re-inforcements from antoehr shipyard? Well then, you just left that one uindefended, and the reapers can outmaounver you. Your ships jump in, theirs jump-out to the shipyard you just left and pulvirize it.


You got static assets, they don't. They are faster.
This a deadly combination in warfare, evne when facing an opponent of equal strength. Heck ,even a lesser opponent cna frak you up in this situation.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 août 2011 - 09:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I really cannot see any normal way in which we could defeat the Reaprs in a military conflict.

They have practicly every advantage imaginable:
They're are faster, more manuveralbe, FAR better shielded and more deadly. The got knowledhe of the galaxy and they can manipulate mass relays. They got no static points they need to defend, nor any civilina population they need to protect, nor any supply lines to cut.
You can't produce ships or infrastructure faster than they can destroy it - and they can destroy it.
They have the power to dictate the pace of battle, and thus keep the initiative.

Frankly, we need a McGuffin.

First off, why are they faster and more manuverable?  What's your specific evidence?
Yes they have better shields, that a given.
That they are "more deadly" then our ships is just an opinion.  By the same reasoning, I can say that Shepard is more deadly then a Reaper.  It's not really an advantage.
And we have developed technology akin to their weapons -- the thannix cannons.

Everything else you've said is just tactics, and have no bearance upon whether we can determine the outcome of a battle or war.

And, despite all of their "superiority" (note the quotation marks to signify that I don't believe this to be an absolute truth), all we need to find is one weakness.  Their, fatal flaw so to say.

It's there.  I think it has something to do with Sovereign's link to Saren.  Something happened there that we truly (as of yet) do not understand, but turned the tide of the battle.

And if it happens once it can happen again.  Right now, we just truly DON'T KNOW.

So, I'm not ready to jump into a collector pod just yet.

Tehy are moanouverable...Ahem..

Joker: "That thing just pulled a turn that would shear one of our ship in half!"

Beter shielding? Definately. Sovy took a pounding from 2 fleets.
More deadly? Yeah...1 hit KO for Sovy. That's no contest here.
Thanix? Thanix is based on Sovy gun, it's not as powerfull.

And everything else I said is not tactics - it's strategy aand logistic. And it does have a bearing on the battle and itis factual. so no points for you there either.

As for jumping into a pod...Have I ever said you should?
I never said to give up. But we have to look for something to give us an edge.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I really cannot see any normal way in which we could defeat the Reaprs in a military conflict.

They have practicly every advantage imaginable:
They're are faster, more manuveralbe, FAR better shielded and more deadly. The got knowledhe of the galaxy and they can manipulate mass relays. They got no static points they need to defend, nor any civilina population they need to protect, nor any supply lines to cut.
You can't produce ships or infrastructure faster than they can destroy it - and they can destroy it.
They have the power to dictate the pace of battle, and thus keep the initiative.

Frankly, we need a McGuffin.

I read a history book once,superior force=/= victory

I read history books all the time, especially those on military conflict. It's a hobby of mine.

We have a scenario of superior force, superior mobiltiy, and favorable strategic nad logistic setup.

Reapers would have to be brain-dead idiots to loose this war in a straight-up conflict.

[LTiberious]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I really cannot see any normal way in which we could defeat the Reaprs in a military conflict.

They have practicly every advantage imaginable:
They're are faster, more manuveralbe, FAR better shielded and more deadly. The got knowledhe of the galaxy and they can manipulate mass relays. They got no static points they need to defend, nor any civilina population they need to protect, nor any supply lines to cut.
You can't produce ships or infrastructure faster than they can destroy it - and they can destroy it.
They have the power to dictate the pace of battle, and thus keep the initiative.

Frankly, we need a McGuffin.

I read a history book once,superior force=/= victory

I read history books all the time, especially those on military conflict. It's a hobby of mine.

We have a scenario of superior force, superior mobiltiy, and favorable strategic nad logistic setup.

Reapers would have to be brain-dead idiots to loose this war in a straight-up conflict.

And you really think someone is gonna make a straight attack on them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Straight-up conflict is not the same as a head-on attack....
But if you want me to re-phrase it..

Reapers would have to be brain-dead idiots to loose this war in a military conflict.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It needn't be a blind leap of faith. We should study Reapers more to understand their true nature and then come to final conclusion.

Why would they 'let us study them' at  their our leisure after we had 'capitulated?' (I put that in apostraphe's because where you say capitulated everyone else reads 'we-have-just-been-utterly...') What's to keep them at their word? Why should we even trust their word to being with? I mean, we can't stop their decision regardless since they just wiped out the rest of the species arrayed against them, therefore meaning we'd actually have even less of a buckley's chance compared to what we have now and we'd be forced into whatever fate (i.e., not good) faster than we can say: "Oh crap guys!"

It's a daft position and you know it more keenly than most, it's just your sense for drama that says otherwise. I suppose you are having fun being the devil's advocate though.

Saphra Deden wrote...
You're old-fashioned and you're afraid.

Damn straight I'm 'afraid', the course of my evolution is taken from my our hands. Only a fool would trust the Reaper's implicitly that they'd even honour any bargain to begin with.

Saphra Deden wrote...
I agree that the development of our species should be left in our hands, but there may come a point where we have no choice but to learn to cope.

Ironic, considering you only just lectured me for being 'afraid.'

Saphra Deden wrote...
It isn't about whether the Reapers have something you want, it's about whether they have a viable future for humanity.

Any future is better than total extinction.

We explicitly wouldn't be human any more and which, considering you know diddly and squat about the process of 'Reaperization' would therefore mean you'd have no idea of what the actual process of liquidisation would entail, which makes it all too much 'academic' for casual debate and far to late if we had 'second doubts.'

You haven't made for us a better 'future' at all, you've traded one bad circumstance for one even worse (and the reason why this is worse? Because if we thought "Crap" then we wouldn't be in any position to change our fate.)

I can see the end plot twist now: It turns out that Shephard 'wakes up' to realise that (s)he is the central mind of a Reaper, and that the entire ME universe as (s)he understood it was just an idle musing based off a hypothesis of certain evolutionary traits and what they could do to a Reaper invasion in the next cycle. Essentially, we just had a bad dream!

Modifié par Arijharn, 04 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[Arijharn]

Sorry, I editted my post before I had seen this one of yours.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Well, despite this kind of missing the point, I don't really have an answer for it. However Sovereign did seemingly allow Saren to study indoctrination at will even though the purpose of those experiments was ultimately to undermine Sovereign itself.

Why has it 'missed the point?' It seems pretty valid to me, the Reapers hold all the cards in your scenario. But to answer your question, perhaps its obvious: Sovereign didn't expect anyone to make notable discoveries. Hell, at the moment as we understand it Sovereign is still correct, because as far as I know Indoctrination still hasn't been cracked.

Saphra Deden wrote...
That said, the best way to understand the Reapers is to use the Collector base and that's why I saved it (one of the reasons anyway).

True, but are you willing to bet on the Reapers allowing us to continue to 'man' it in the traditional sense if we've capitulated? Remember, we've capitulated to them, and capitulation means you have no superior position in bargaining. Meaning, don't hold your breath on this. If we go to the Collector base at all, it's so we can be melted down into 'green' goo.

Saphra Deden wrote...
I explained this to another poster a few pages back and also said that if in the end we determined that Reapers were nothing more than alien constructs built from 'human bricks' then there'd never be any reason for us to capitulate.

I know, but my position is that this is the 'chicken and the egg' all over again. If we are to capitulate, it means that we surrender sovereignty essentially to the Reapers, which means that for the most part they can direct us to do what they want (such as to say: "Don't study us!") and we'd be unable to determine either way because we'd have insufficient strength of arms to really gainsay them, and they control so much in return. 

Saphra Deden wrote...
When I made this thread I went ahead and assumed the Reapers were more than that for the sake of argument. It presents the opportunity for a much more interesting debate and conclusion than saying "We're all gonna die and we can't do anything about it." I wanted to suggest a radical alternative to defeat.

I can see that, but I think it's backfired on you more than just a bit, which means it didn't really stimulate the kind of debate you were looking for.

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, we'd be descended from humans. This is an inevitable future anyway. The only difference is that it will either be by our choice or by someone else's. We may never get the chance to truly make the choice ourselves so I say it's better to capitulate than to die out.

As much as he annoys me sometimes but: "Supposition, impossible to determine!"

I think we owe it to ourselves to charter our own destiny and make our own mistakes and successes, and to own each and every one of them. I do not trust the Reapers, and as awesome as it would be to be part machine, I must stress the whole 'part' ... part.

I don't know how the Reapers work, and I'm only interested in finding out how they work with the purview of 'liquidating' the entirety of them. 

I think you have a funny definition of 'living on' in this context imo, especially since you don't actually know at what level if any you would be 'living on' or if that's even a sufficient wording. I mean, you get all that information from EDI near the end of the adventure... but how the hell can she determine that?