2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That's great....except...you don't know how they will attack.

No, I don't.
I'm giving you a simple attack strategy that even a novice tactician/strategist can come up with. A tactic that you cannot hope to beat with your resources and your strategic situation.

And if reapers are even remottely as smart as they claim to be, they can come up with even far more efficient combat plans than this.


Bottom point - if you can't counter this, then don't come claiming we can win in a direct military conflict without some McGuffin.

Their primary plan has always been
Cut the head off of the snake(Citadel)
Divide and conquer.

Who's to say they aren't just winging it out of arrogance of their strength.

[Lotion Soronarr]

That would fall into the "stupid villain" category, and would be doing the franchise a disservice.

If the only way for the hero to win is to make the enemy a retard, you're doing something wrong.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Well they have said ME3 won't end like a traditional war story (We kicked their asses,lets go get hammered.) so who knows,beating the reapers seems like it wouldn't be as exciting as initially believed,to destroy them all or to a point they give up would kind of devalue what may be the most hyped antagonist ever,and they most definitely won't go the Halo route were the reapers suddenly switch sides because well...it's been done before.

[atheelogos]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Well they have said ME3 won't end like a traditional war story (We kicked their asses,lets go get hammered.).

link?

[SJK93]

atheelogos wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Well they have said ME3 won't end like a traditional war story (We kicked their asses,lets go get hammered.).

link?

It's in the confirmed features thread somewhere.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

As far as I see it, you've chosen extinction anyway.

I've chosen to gamble for evolution over extinction.

Considering we are in no way in shape or form or in any way to be considered 'human,' no you haven't. You're entire argument is based on technicalities (saying we'd still be human is as apt as saying we're still chimpanzee's). Saying we'd be an 'evolution' of humans is filled with so much hot air I'm surprised you haven't taken off yet.

"All boarding -- Saphra Deden... please keep your tickets handy!"

[SpiffySquee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ok...just to bring this to a close...I'll take command of hte reaper forces. You take command of the resistance. I'll tell you the reaper attack strategy... let's see if you can win this.



1. Reapers will stike the infrastructure and power generation and food production first, starting with the biggest and most vital planets.
Shipyards are the primary targets in space.

2. Reapers will move in force. At no point will any force/fleet consist of less than 50 reapers.

3. Should the kinetic barriers come in danger of collapsing, the reaper will disengage and FTL to another unguarded enemy asset or, if no scuh exists in the vicinity, to a pre-established rally point.

4. Destruction of key enemy infrastructure takes precedence over total anihilation of all resistance on a planet. Once all the primary objectives have been completed, the reapers are to move to the next planet/world.
Possibly, leave a small force behind to bombard the planet from orbit and then follow.

5. The fleets will avoid any unencessry stops or delays - they are to be constantly on the move, using hit-and-run attacks.

6. Using precision relay jumps, jump into tacticly advantagous positions.

7. Send probes to sweep systems for bases and shipyards, and any supply convoys.

8. If the resitance sends fleet assests from somewhere else to reainforce a world under attack - disengage and FTL to the world from which the reinforcements came and hit it. Avoid getting unnecesarily tied down.

That's sounds great, but there is no where near enough information to form any sort of detailed strategy. How many ships do they have? How many ships do we have? Have there been any modifications made to our ships since the battle with Sov to make them deadlier?  How many  key  infrastructure do we have to protect? How many of them do the reapers know about? Will we have time to maneuver while they hunt for said locations? 


Do the Reapers have softer, more vulnerable ships, or are they all as hard to kill as sov was? Do they have targets of importance? For example, if we kill Harby, does that affect the rest of the reapers like killing the leader of a normal army? Do we know enemy locations? Do they know ours? How long does it take to hit a planet and move on? Do we have any aid from other races?  

This is information any novice strategist would know is needed before one could have any sort of meaninful war game.  Unless you just want to play the guessing game all day

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 05 août 2011 - 10:31 .

[SJK93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Considering we are in no way in shape or form or in any way to be considered 'human,' no you haven't.

It's descended from humans. No different from ****** habilis to the modern day.

****** habilis is gone, but modern humans are descended from them.

That's better than there being no descendent at all.

No, it's not. You don't get it. Our "descendent" would be helping to exterminate innocent lives for millions of years to come. Nothing is worth helping the Reapers' cause. In fact, it's worth everything to try and stop them.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Considering we are in no way in shape or form or in any way to be considered 'human,' no you haven't.

It's descended from humans. No different from ****** habilis to the modern day.

****** habilis is gone, but modern humans are descended from them.

That's better than there being no descendent at all.

Why? They aren't 'human.' They aren't our children or our children's children. There will be no legacy of us besides perhaps some vestigal remains that lie trapped behind some organic metal hull. There will be no more forces of personality that drives and motivates people to do great things anymore. No more Alexander the Greats, no more Winston Churchill's, no more Commander Shephard's, no more Mother Teresa's... no more people. 

Everything that makes us who we are and what we are is no more, other than the shattered remains of our cities which frankly are probably more human than the mask you would have us wear.

There will be no more human descendants, there'll be just one more Reaper who thinks as Reapers do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ok...just to bring this to a close...I'll take command of hte reaper forces. You take command of the resistance. I'll tell you the reaper attack strategy... let's see if you can win this.



1. Reapers will stike the infrastructure and power generation and food production first, starting with the biggest and most vital planets.
Shipyards are the primary targets in space.

2. Reapers will move in force. At no point will any force/fleet consist of less than 50 reapers.

3. Should the kinetic barriers come in danger of collapsing, the reaper will disengage and FTL to another unguarded enemy asset or, if no scuh exists in the vicinity, to a pre-established rally point.

4. Destruction of key enemy infrastructure takes precedence over total anihilation of all resistance on a planet. Once all the primary objectives have been completed, the reapers are to move to the next planet/world.
Possibly, leave a small force behind to bombard the planet from orbit and then follow.

5. The fleets will avoid any unencessry stops or delays - they are to be constantly on the move, using hit-and-run attacks.

6. Using precision relay jumps, jump into tacticly advantagous positions.

7. Send probes to sweep systems for bases and shipyards, and any supply convoys.

8. If the resitance sends fleet assests from somewhere else to reainforce a world under attack - disengage and FTL to the world from which the reinforcements came and hit it. Avoid getting unnecesarily tied down.

That's sounds great, but there is no where near enough information to form any sort of detailed strategy. How many ships do they have? How many ships do we have? Have there been any modifications made to our ships since the battle with Sov to make them deadlier?  How many  key  infrastructure do we have to protect? How many of them do the reapers know about? Will we have time to maneuver while they hunt for said locations?


Do the Reapers have softer, more vulnerable ships, or are they all as hard to kill as sov was? Do they have targets of importance? For example, if we kill Harby, does that affect the rest of the reapers like killing the leader of a normal army? Do we know enemy locations? Do they know ours? How long does it take to hit a planet and move on? Do we have any aid from other races?  

We know none of these things, and without this info, you can't have any sort of meaningful war game. Unless you just want to play the guessing game all day.

Reapers are - if all the vids are anything to go by - in the thousands.

And yes, you can play a meaningfull war game. Input variables as you see fit - thanix cannons, more ships of yours than reapers, etc...
You'll still lose.

Their strategic advantages are too great. You CAN'T corner them. They CAN corner you.
They don't have shipyards and planets and civilians to protect. You do. They are faster. Stonger, More durable.

Even the whole reaper fleet is smaller and consists only of smaller reaper ship - with the above strategy they'd still win. Cause they can use hit-and-run on you. They can tie you down. You can't do the same to them.

[Arijharn]

SJK93 wrote...

No, it's not. You don't get it. Our "descendent" would be helping to exterminate innocent lives for millions of years to come. Nothing is worth helping the Reapers' cause. In fact, it's worth everything to try and stop them.

I'm going to say something that's probably going to be hurtful in it's brutal honesty. I don't care that much about other species lives down the line, because it's a far cry to declare them 'innocent' without knowing anything about them (and how could we?). But what I can look out for is ours currently.

[SpiffySquee]

SJK93 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Considering we are in no way in shape or form or in any way to be considered 'human,' no you haven't.

It's descended from humans. No different from ****** habilis to the modern day.

****** habilis is gone, but modern humans are descended from them.

That's better than there being no descendent at all.

No, it's not. You don't get it. Our "descendent" would be helping to exterminate innocent lives for millions of years to come. Nothing is worth helping the Reapers' cause. In fact, it's worth everything to try and stop them.

Not to mention, as stated my the post Saphra completely missed, we have no way of knowing if our genetic code is even kept intact. They could just be taking parts they need and throwing the rest away. If so, then we haven't evolved at all. You are gambling that one collector base might be able to tell us that we might keep some semblance of our selves once we are liquefied and pumped into a reaper. At least by fighting we have a 5 % chance. What you suggest is like trying to win the lottery. 

[SJK93]

Arijharn wrote...

SJK93 wrote...

No, it's not. You don't get it. Our "descendent" would be helping to exterminate innocent lives for millions of years to come. Nothing is worth helping the Reapers' cause. In fact, it's worth everything to try and stop them.

I'm going to say something that's probably going to be hurtful in it's brutal honesty. I don't care that much about other species lives down the line, because it's a far cry to declare them 'innocent' without knowing anything about them (and how could we?). But what I can look out for is ours currently.

Point taken.  I was referring to the innocent lives that would no doubt exist, in whatever numbers. Entire species aren't all the same, and there would no doubt be some innocent people. You're absolutely right that our first concern should certainly be to stop the Reapers from destroying what life currently exists in the galaxy. Whatever the cost.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're making an emotional argument.

You need to do better than that.

Your entire argument is an 'emotional' argument: 'We can't save Earth, we must capitulate!'

Alright, the Reaper is going to be as much a 'descendant' from humanity as I'm a descendant from the McDonald's burger I ate at lunch time.

[SJK93]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't care.

I think you should care. Murdering trillions of people is never a good thing. It's genocide.

Of course, I'm probably just wasting my breath. You won't listen to anything anyone presents.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...
That's not an emotional argument. It's a logical appraisel of the situation. It is a phrased in an emotional way, but its core is all about doing what is practical.

As is mine. The difference was that I was more poetic about it. In short, I was basically calling you the worst kind of traitor possible, one committed not for religious, commercial or even personal gain, but against your very species. Is that harsh enough pragmatism for you?

Saphra Deden wrote...
McDonald's is people?

No, and that's my point. Thank the gods you could grasp that much at least

[SJK93]

Saphra, do you really think that there will be an ending in which we can submit to the Reapers? The whole series has been about trying to stop them. I think it would defeat the entire purpose of the games.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...
...but I'm doing it for the species. Somebody has to make the hard choices. Most people just can't get over the squick factor. They can't really grasp the concept of what humantiy will become or even of what extinction, true extinction, means.

But that's the fundamental flaw in your argument that you're dragging your feet on. You haven't 'preserved' humanity at all. You haven't empowered humanity and conversely, performed systematic destruction of humanity. You have brought us to extinction.

You haven't given control of humanity to humans. You have killed us all. Ergo, what you seek to protect you betrayed, because you've explicitly made us not human anymore.

I can't break this down any further I think without drawing pop up pictures (which I'm not going to do because a) I refuse to believe you actually need this step and I can't be bothered.

'Preserving' our species by melting us down? o.0

Saphra Deden wrote...
As I said many pages ago... I'll drag humanity out of the dark and into the light, even if they are kicking and screaming as I do so.

You've betrayed your own stated goals, which means you have utterly failed by pretty much every standard measurement ever. Furthermore, if you can't trust the word of another human, what on 'Earth' makes you think you can trust any Reaper's word for 'ascension.' Sounds to me you'd be a horrible gambler.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Your McDonald's analogy doesn't hold up because, at least where I'm from, McDonald's isn't made from any human products. Not intentionally anyway.

Saphra..... why you do this to me?!

Humans != the things they eat. Reapers != the things they eat.

Substitute 'eat' with 'assembled from' if that's what you'd prefer. Hell, they turn us into organic metal which is pretty much not... us.. as far as I can see. They melt us down. You haven't 'preserved' anything, because we sure as hell ain't 'living on.' We do not exist, a Reaper exists, but a Reaper is not human.