2463 réponses à ce sujet

[SJK93]

It's not descended from anything. It's a machine made from humans melted into some sort of liquid form. We'd simply be components for its construction, not ancestors.

[JBONE27]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

But that's the fundamental flaw in your argument that you're dragging your feet on. You haven't 'preserved' humanity at all.

I haven't preserved humanity in its natural state. I have however preserved as much of it as a I can. It's legacy, it's 'essence', as best I can. It's not ideal, I've admitted that, but it is the best I can do.

Consider the account of Dr. Wallace Breen brought up in that  "Mass Effect: Dissertion" written by that one guy. In Breen's universe humanity will be warped almost beyond recognition by the Combine. However the species will continue, even in that warped, enslaved form.

Is that better than extinction? In technical terms, of-course. However you're looking at this morally and emotionally.

Arijharn wrote...

...makes you think you can trust any Reaper's word for 'ascension.' Sounds to me you'd be a horrible gambler.

I'd prefer to trust my own judgement. I'd prefer to find out what Reapers really are first. However if I can't do that... then I have no choice but to gamble. I'll take the 50/50% of humanity living on in a Reaper as opposed to your 5% chance of defeating them. (and it's probably a much smaller chance than that)

Arijharn wrote...

We do not exist, a Reaper exists, but a Reaper is not human.

It is not human, but the human Reaper is descended from humanity. It's the legacy of our species, built from our strengths and nature.

 Our brains are what make us human.  If the brain is turned into metalic paste, it isn't our brains anymore.  It's like taking a cow, and chopping it into hamburger meat.  Is that still a cow?  No! It is ground round, or taking a flower and turning it into mulch.  Is that pile of fertile soil a daisy?  No! It's quite litterally worm food.  
Casey Hudson said that they attacked humans, not to create a reaper with the stregnths of humanity, but to get to Shepard due to his/her exposure to the conduit.  My hypothosis is that they did this to take any information that could help the sentiant species of the the galaxy win against them.
Also, which would you rather have happen to you.  Would you rather die in a giant explosion instanly vaporising your body, or be strapped to a table and be repeatedly prodded with needles for however long your life-span is, since that's the way (though with different wording) indoctronation has been described in the novel Mass Effect: Retribution.

[LGTX]

I'd rather condemn my own race then strengthen the Reapers. Denying them one species for a potential Reaper may be the least we can do for ensuring that sometimes, someday, they will meet their match.

[Dusty Arne]

About time the human race gets some asswhooping.. ALIENS ALL THE WAY!!

[vehzeel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

But that's the fundamental flaw in your argument that you're dragging your feet on. You haven't 'preserved' humanity at all.

I haven't preserved humanity in its natural state. I have however preserved as much of it as a I can. It's legacy, it's 'essence', as best I can. It's not ideal, I've admitted that, but it is the best I can do.

Consider the account of Dr. Wallace Breen brought up in that  "Mass Effect: Dissertion" written by that one guy. In Breen's universe humanity will be warped almost beyond recognition by the Combine. However the species will continue, even in that warped, enslaved form.

Is that better than extinction? In technical terms, of-course. However you're looking at this morally and emotionally.

Arijharn wrote...

...makes you think you can trust any Reaper's word for 'ascension.' Sounds to me you'd be a horrible gambler.

I'd prefer to trust my own judgement. I'd prefer to find out what Reapers really are first. However if I can't do that... then I have no choice but to gamble. I'll take the 50/50% of humanity living on in a Reaper as opposed to your 5% chance of defeating them. (and it's probably a much smaller chance than that)

Arijharn wrote...

We do not exist, a Reaper exists, but a Reaper is not human.

It is not human, but the human Reaper is descended from humanity. It's the legacy of our species, built from our strengths and nature.

Ok, so you've now admitted that the 'human legacy' will be the only thing left. So why not send all info and pictures of humans to the Reapers, then kill ourselves. That'd be equally efficient and save them some time.

[Medhia Nox]

Making a house out of lumber isn't preserving - "the legacy of trees".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Beer-Legacy of the hops.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Making a house out of lumber isn't preserving - "the legacy of trees".

I agree, but I don't advocate a house of lumber. I advocate a new breed of tree.

HR is made of humans,just like the house. same concept.

[CBKeffer]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Beer-Legacy of the hops.

And oh what a tasty legacy it is!

[Medhia Nox]

You can't make a new breed of tree by grinding up all the trees in the world into mulch. In fact - you grind them all to pulp - you make paper, which is not the legacy of trees either.

Harbinger and Sovereign don't call themselves the "Varnac Reaper" and the "Sephluvian Reaper" (invented races to prove a point) - they don't even really call themselves "Sovereign" and "Harbinger".

This whole "Salvation through Destruction" thing - is like the work camps of WWII - each one had "Work will set you free." written above the entrances in German.

Of course work didn't set those poor people free - just like turning all humans into a slushie won't really be their "salvation through destruction".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 août 2011 - 08:17 .

[SandTrout]

@Medhia Nox,

The fact of how Harbinger and Sovereign referred to themselves by words that we could comprehend does not mean that they do not consider themselves "Varnac". In fact, in conversations with Legion, he uses the word 'Nazara' to describe Sovereign because that it how the Reaper referred to itself, and the title 'Sovereign' was given by Saren and his goons.

Modifié par SandTrout, 05 août 2011 - 08:49 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I have another solution to the Reaper problem. Mass breed these things and turn them loose on them:

[exskeeny]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That's great....except...you don't know how they will attack.

He's just formulating a strategy the Reapers could employ which could defeat us. That's good planning.

Your job is to figure out a hole in his strategy.

You'll have to do something similar with the Reapers. That is, you'll have to determine what their strategy is and find a way to counter it with a strategy of your own.

This thread is basically intended to be one elaborate war game.

So far nobody has presented a strategy for winning. Not a detailed one anyway.

Even Arijharn was working off of the assumption that he'd already won the rest of the galaxy.

That's the pointof ME3, we could all give wild speculation on what we will do. ME3 will be the exploration and finding a way to beat the reapers. they've already said that.

Reading ascension, the reapers are nothing but superior tacticians. knowing when to show force or subtlety. They are an unknown enemy to the masses of the universe. No-one will think of a tactical strategy to defeat them. Until it presents itself tous during ME3

[Darksaberexile]

Not sure it would work/actually be a good idea, but I think it would be possible to beat a Reaper at electronic/cyber warfare, using superior resources. (1v1 would be best, at least until the merits of the system were evaluated)

This would require cooperation of EDI and the geth collective. EDI already has access to Reaper cyber warfare tech from Sovereign, and as seen in the Collector ship mission, is capable of accomplishing many tasks at once, offensively and defensively. At this time, EDI was still shackled, and limited in resources. However, I would expect the AI collective of a Reaper to be capable of defeating EDI with standard resources.

That's where the Geth come in. As Legion says, the Geth are able to communicate with each other and think at FTL speeds. Additionally, they become stronger for each networked Geth. When Legion is given permission to use the FTL comm system to access a data file, EDI says that what Legion contacted felt like a "mind the size of a galactic arm". If EDI were to link with the Geth, then it would combine the sheer computing power of the Geth collective with EDI's cyber warfare and electronic warfare systems, which are equal to the Reapers' capabilities, since they were taken directly from Sovereign.

Possible advantages of this:
1.Normandy would become a powerful weapon against a Reaper by attacking its systems, if successful.
2. Reapers are shown (by Sovereign's example) to be easily destroyed once their shields can be disabled, a possible application of this strategy.
3. Predicting the Reapers' next move may be possible if their communications can be intercepted/stolen in this way.
4. Hacking a functioning Reaper sucessfully would likely provide a large amount of data on their technology, possibly even indoctrination.

Disadvantages:
1. It's purely theoretical that EDI and the Geth could work together in this way.
2. Effectiveness would be unknown until testing against a Reaper could be done, resulting in high risk for possibly no benefit.
3. Effects on EDI and the Geth from trying to hack a Reaper are unknown.
4. If the Geth intend future hostilities against organics (assuming survival of the Reaper invasion), they would become a greater threat.
5. Even if the technique can work, tension may rise with the Quarians in response to the plans to use the Geth in such a way.

(If this plan isn't worth the pixels it's written in, I'll just discard it lol. However, cyber warfare is likely to be a key portion of the war with the Reapers, so it's a good idea to have a way to fight back against it instead of just allowing them to dominate that field of battle and disable our ships/communications/etc.)

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Excellent theory.

[SynheKatze]

That theory would make sense in ME's lore, and although it might be a little bit over the top, but it's possible and I certainly like it.

[TheNoisyNeutron]

-shrug-

Good points. Almost tl;dr but I didn't. In the end though, we'll just have to wait and see. Who knows maybe Bioware's writers will pull some amazing loophole out of their buttchumps. :|

[SpiffySquee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ok...just to bring this to a close...I'll take command of hte reaper forces. You take command of the resistance. I'll tell you the reaper attack strategy... let's see if you can win this.



1. Reapers will stike the infrastructure and power generation and food production first, starting with the biggest and most vital planets.
Shipyards are the primary targets in space.

2. Reapers will move in force. At no point will any force/fleet consist of less than 50 reapers.

3. Should the kinetic barriers come in danger of collapsing, the reaper will disengage and FTL to another unguarded enemy asset or, if no scuh exists in the vicinity, to a pre-established rally point.

4. Destruction of key enemy infrastructure takes precedence over total anihilation of all resistance on a planet. Once all the primary objectives have been completed, the reapers are to move to the next planet/world.
Possibly, leave a small force behind to bombard the planet from orbit and then follow.

5. The fleets will avoid any unencessry stops or delays - they are to be constantly on the move, using hit-and-run attacks.

6. Using precision relay jumps, jump into tacticly advantagous positions.

7. Send probes to sweep systems for bases and shipyards, and any supply convoys.

8. If the resitance sends fleet assests from somewhere else to reainforce a world under attack - disengage and FTL to the world from which the reinforcements came and hit it. Avoid getting unnecesarily tied down.

Challenge... accepted.



It's almost 30 minutes, but I did not feel like typing a wall of text. It is a detailed strategy that gives us a chance of beating the reapers (using your tactics).

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Jeez...the force of a ~1000 ton frigate moving 150 times the SOL,well you took the challenge,I believe you won.

But I'm sure lotion will respond with "I didn't think of it,your argument is invalid"

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 août 2011 - 12:51 .

[SpiffySquee]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Jeez...the force of a ~1000 ton frigate moving 150 times the SOL,well you took the challenge,I believe you won.

But I'm sure lotion will respond with "I didn't think of it,your argument is invalid"

He would have to prove that there is absolutely no way it could work. Possible, I suppose if I overlooked something, but It's a strong enough idea to be adapted in many ways to overcome said over sites... I think

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Jeez...the force of a ~1000 ton frigate moving 150 times the SOL,well you took the challenge,I believe you won.

But I'm sure lotion will respond with "I didn't think of it,your argument is invalid"

He would have to prove that there is absolutely no way it could work. Possible, I suppose if I overlooked something, but It's a strong enough idea to be adapted in many ways to overcome said over sites... I think

1 frigate moving at those speeds would destroy the planet though,but if you hit the reaper itself in space you might just fly through it,or explode with more then 1000 times the most powerful nuclear device ever tested...though 1 planet for that many reapers seems worth it.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 août 2011 - 01:03 .

[SpiffySquee]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Jeez...the force of a ~1000 ton frigate moving 150 times the SOL,well you took the challenge,I believe you won.

But I'm sure lotion will respond with "I didn't think of it,your argument is invalid"

He would have to prove that there is absolutely no way it could work. Possible, I suppose if I overlooked something, but It's a strong enough idea to be adapted in many ways to overcome said over sites... I think

1 frigate moving at those speeds would destroy the planet though,but if you hit the reaper itself in space you might just fly through it,or explode with more then 1000 times the most powerful nuclear device ever tested...though 1 planet for that many reapers seems worth it.

Even if you just fly right through it, the hole would damage the reaper enough to make FTL unlikely, and the rest of the task force can finish it off.

There would be massive loss of life, but what are the alternatives? I agree, it is necessary to defeat this enemy through force of arms.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Shepard- "No Harbinger,you will know pain."

The impact would probably do what the massive MAC did to the DR

FUBARBUNDY

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 août 2011 - 01:21 .

[TheWerdna]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ok...just to bring this to a close...I'll take command of hte reaper forces. You take command of the resistance. I'll tell you the reaper attack strategy... let's see if you can win this.



1. Reapers will stike the infrastructure and power generation and food production first, starting with the biggest and most vital planets.
Shipyards are the primary targets in space.

2. Reapers will move in force. At no point will any force/fleet consist of less than 50 reapers.

3. Should the kinetic barriers come in danger of collapsing, the reaper will disengage and FTL to another unguarded enemy asset or, if no scuh exists in the vicinity, to a pre-established rally point.

4. Destruction of key enemy infrastructure takes precedence over total anihilation of all resistance on a planet. Once all the primary objectives have been completed, the reapers are to move to the next planet/world.
Possibly, leave a small force behind to bombard the planet from orbit and then follow.

5. The fleets will avoid any unencessry stops or delays - they are to be constantly on the move, using hit-and-run attacks.

6. Using precision relay jumps, jump into tacticly advantagous positions.

7. Send probes to sweep systems for bases and shipyards, and any supply convoys.

8. If the resitance sends fleet assests from somewhere else to reainforce a world under attack - disengage and FTL to the world from which the reinforcements came and hit it. Avoid getting unnecesarily tied down.

Challenge... accepted.



It's almost 30 minutes, but I did not feel like typing a wall of text. It is a detailed strategy that gives us a chance of beating the reapers (using your tactics).

I vote that Squee beat the challenge. Is the plan uncounterable? No. Is its chance of sucess high? No. Does it still have a chance of working? Yes.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 06 août 2011 - 01:26 .