2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

You hit the Reapers in the face with a sun.(nukes are hotter then our sun.)

[Sisterofshane]

littlezack wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

Resources, yes. Technology, however, is obviously best harvested from the most well-developed civilizations.

What would they want technology for?

I actually have a theory on that.

The Reapers are intelligent, yes, but I think they lack creativy. They're advanced to an incredible degree, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for a race to develop technology that they don't currently possess. It's a big universe, after all, and they can use organic insights into technology to better themselves.

I'd like to expand upon your theory, if I may.

The Reapers do not spend the 50,000 years after the extinction event researching ways upon which to further their out-put efficiency.  They hibernate.  It would make sense that gathering up the technology of the current galactic civilization would then give them an opportunity to discover new ways to save resources, and possibly make the next "reap" be faster and more efficient then the previous ones, before they head back to darkspace to hibernate.  That is partly why they left the mass relays and the citadel -- any new technology would be based upon the technology they already use, and therefore it would be more likely that it would be useful to them.

And, a shorter answer?  They're studying us.  Figuring out how each civilization has developed and expanded gives them just another file they can reference the next time they come out of darkspace.  In theory, it would make it easier for them to "reap" the next time around.

[Phategod1]

@ Squee @Phategod1on youtube Joker was talking about jumping with a mass Relay, not FTL flight. Very very different. One is a point to point jump with a lot of drift, the other must be accurate, you you could fly right into a planet. The collectors know where the migrant fleet was? Then move it. Problem solved. We don't need to use the relays during the attack. We can predict their next targets and wait quietly in system to jump them after they started the attack.

another point I was making is that in order to reach point A to B is the Mass Relays must be used the FTL drives only get you so far and to coordinate the attacks The Mass Relay are a resource and if there are a battalion of Reapers guarding each relay that shuts down the coordinated efforts. and after playing ME2 we all know the resources it takes just power a frigate.

I will say Squee it does certainly have a chance, but can I ask a question is it worth the risk? lets say the 1st time you attempt the plan if reapers can survive the impact of ships contact with a planet, and if the ships fail to meet to any targets, will the collateral damage be worth the risk? 4 planets, stranded quarians and non combantants, 1/8 the collective fleet, and its trust.

Modifié par Phategod1, 08 août 2011 - 02:29 .

[General User]

Sisterofshane wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

Resources, yes. Technology, however, is obviously best harvested from the most well-developed civilizations.

What would they want technology for?

I actually have a theory on that.

The Reapers are intelligent, yes, but I think they lack creativy. They're advanced to an incredible degree, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for a race to develop technology that they don't currently possess. It's a big universe, after all, and they can use organic insights into technology to better themselves.

I'd like to expand upon your theory, if I may.

The Reapers do not spend the 50,000 years after the extinction event researching ways upon which to further their out-put efficiency.  They hibernate.  It would make sense that gathering up the technology of the current galactic civilization would then give them an opportunity to discover new ways to save resources, and possibly make the next "reap" be faster and more efficient then the previous ones, before they head back to darkspace to hibernate.  That is partly why they left the mass relays and the citadel -- any new technology would be based upon the technology they already use, and therefore it would be more likely that it would be useful to them.

And, a shorter answer?  They're studying us.  Figuring out how each civilization has developed and expanded gives them just another file they can reference the next time they come out of darkspace.  In theory, it would make it easier for them to "reap" the next time around.

I could not possibly agree more. The Reapers "reapings" seem to be their primary means of acquiring new technologies.

I like to take this line of thought a few steps further and say that the Reapers have been doing this for so long, that they have lost the very ability to develop and create in the way we do! Making our form of life superior to the Reapers in a very important way.

It's the natural tendency of all lifeforms (techno-organic ones included I imagine) to develop into niche specialists. And that's what I think has happened to the Reapers. They have been "reaping" for so long become niche specialists to their own system. They are trapped in a cycle they could not break free from, even if they wanted to.

The Reapers have become slaves to their own desire to dominate. A tragic and ironic fate, but one not unbecoming the villains of a sci-fi franchise.

That's my pet theory anyway.

Modifié par General User, 08 août 2011 - 02:51 .

[SpiffySquee]

Phategod1 wrote...

@ Squee @Phategod1on youtube Joker was talking about jumping with a mass Relay, not FTL flight. Very very different. One is a point to point jump with a lot of drift, the other must be accurate, you you could fly right into a planet. The collectors know where the migrant fleet was? Then move it. Problem solved. We don't need to use the relays during the attack. We can predict their next targets and wait quietly in system to jump them after they started the attack.

another point I was making is that in order to reach point A to B is the Mass Relays must be used the FTL drives only get you so far and to coordinate the attacks The Mass Relay are a resource and if there are a battalion of Reapers guarding each relay that shuts down the coordinated efforts. and after playing ME2 we all know the resources it takes just power a frigate.

I will say Squee it does certainly have a chance, but can I ask a question is it worth the risk? lets say the 1st time you attempt the plan if reapers can survive the impact of ships contact with a planet, and if the ships fail to meet to any targets, will the collateral damage be worth the risk? 4 planets, stranded quarians and non combantants, 1/8 the collective fleet, and its trust.

I would do my best to test it first. Try and use it on a reaper on test it on a barren planet. Hopefully we would know before we actually do it. Sadly, we would try it even if we don't know because we just don't have any other options. (assuming another, better plan is not made)

[Sisterofshane]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

@ Squee @Phategod1on youtube Joker was talking about jumping with a mass Relay, not FTL flight. Very very different. One is a point to point jump with a lot of drift, the other must be accurate, you you could fly right into a planet. The collectors know where the migrant fleet was? Then move it. Problem solved. We don't need to use the relays during the attack. We can predict their next targets and wait quietly in system to jump them after they started the attack.

another point I was making is that in order to reach point A to B is the Mass Relays must be used the FTL drives only get you so far and to coordinate the attacks The Mass Relay are a resource and if there are a battalion of Reapers guarding each relay that shuts down the coordinated efforts. and after playing ME2 we all know the resources it takes just power a frigate.

I will say Squee it does certainly have a chance, but can I ask a question is it worth the risk? lets say the 1st time you attempt the plan if reapers can survive the impact of ships contact with a planet, and if the ships fail to meet to any targets, will the collateral damage be worth the risk? 4 planets, stranded quarians and non combantants, 1/8 the collective fleet, and its trust.

I would do my best to test it first. Try and use it on a reaper on test it on a barren planet. Hopefully we would know before we actually do it. Sadly, we would try it even if we don't know because we just don't have any other options. (assuming another, better plan is not made)

You know Squee, I hope we never have to test your strategy.  I'm going to tuck it away in my pocket as plan "Z", and hopefully one of plans "A-Y" will work.
You know, because I consider the kamikaze destruction of entire planets to be a last resort.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

...tech stagnates if it's only you making it,they run out of imagination.

Neccesity is the mother of invention,the Reapers don't have anything they would need to improve on so they have nowhere to go with their tech.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 08 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[AlphaDormante]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What would the Reapers need other, primitive, species to develop technology for them? During each harvest they'd have centuries to do their own research and testing anyway.

"By using [mass relay technology], your society develops along the paths we desire."

Sovereign said that. If the Reapers have no interest in our tech, why browbeat us into developing it? It would be insanely less dangerous for the Reapers if each species lived out their existence having to develop their own tech and weapons.

By tricking us into using their template, the Reapers ensure that they're compatible with any technological advancements we make. It's a competely sound theory.

edit: Also, they don't spend their free time developing tech; they use it to hibernate. I guess it's possible that they could have some processes running while they're snoozing, but dark space is hardly the best environment for it.

Modifié par AlphaDormante, 08 août 2011 - 08:11 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

AlphaDormante wrote...
It would be insanely less dangerous for the Reapers if each species lived out their existence having to develop their own tech and weapons.

I don't know,you see some pretty crazy weaponry in sci-fi Humans have a knack for finding new and exciting ways to kill each other.

[SnakeSNMF]

Their are a few ways to beat Reapers with clever mechanics.

1) Propel massive objects, e.g frigates,at faster then light speeds of Reapers, because they're so massive and quick, you don't need to be that accurate as just be in its' general direction. 2 KM is enough for just to hit it, and put a dent in it large enough it'd make them think.
We could make it so they're not controlled.

2)
Mass-create antimatter. Let's say we all have ten grams of anti-matter, one gram itself is fifty times stronger then a nuclear bomb. So one gram is probably enough to kill a Reaper, even less. Significantly, it'd just erase their matter from existance, and anything around it. A deadly protective weapon, especially considering cannons, although the envrionmental damage would be dangerous.

3)
Distractions. Lead the Reapers to useless solar-systems, wait with an asteroid, and distract the Reapers then destroy the solar system, while giving us enough time to do FTL. Easy enough.

4) Dark Energy
If dark energy absorbs mass, it can be used for black holes. We make black holes as weapons, suck Reapers into them, we really don't need concerns.


We'd have to waste lots of resources to do all of this, but it's more effiective then going on foot.

[AlphaDormante]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...
It would be insanely less dangerous for the Reapers if each species lived out their existence having to develop their own tech and weapons.

I don't know,you see some pretty crazy weaponry in sci-fi Humans have a knack for finding new and exciting ways to kill each other.

True! Imagine the awe on that first caveman's face when he accidentally set his friend's beard on fire...

[EsterCloat]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What would the Reapers need other, primitive, species to develop technology for them? During each harvest they'd have centuries to do their own research and testing anyway.

They do take technology according to Vigil in this video starting a 5:30. If I had to say why, well, if the Reapers saw some useful piece of tech one of these "primitive" species developed that they hadn't I'm pretty sure they'd take it rather than trash it out of some misplaced sense of pride. Or course they'd probably work to improve it and make it more Reaper-y but they'd still take it.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 08 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[EsterCloat]

Saphra Deden wrote...

For all we know they take technology to preserve it simply as a means of cataloging all the species they consume. A Reaper encyclopedia of sentient life in the galaxy, you might say.

For all we know they take technology to use it simply as a means of harvesting all the later species they consume. A Reaper armory of sentient life in the galaxy, you might say.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 08 août 2011 - 08:58 .

[EsterCloat]

Saphra Deden wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

For all we know they take technology to use it as a means of harvesting all the later species they consume. A Reaper armory of sentient life in the galaxy, you might say.

Considering the age of the Citadel, relays, and Keepers, I rather doubt that.

Doubt...what? What are you doubting? What does the age of the Citadel, the Mass Relays, and Keepers have to do with what I wrote?

Modifié par EsterCloat, 08 août 2011 - 09:02 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Studying primitive technology would still be useful,you can never have enough knowledge,and even though all tech is based on the ME technology doesn't mean all the races came to the same tech.

[AlphaDormante]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

"By using [mass relay technology], your society develops along the paths we desire."

Two things.

First: that is not a metaphor regarding general technological development. Sovereign is speaking literally. By using the mass relays alien societies are drawn to the Citadel where they are easily trapped. It makes reaping them easier because each species is clustered around the relay network rather than being allowed to spread to more remote regions. Dependence on Reaper-built mass relays and the Citadel also means they are cut-off and helpless once the Reapers come through the Citadel.

Secondly: even if you took Sovereign's words and made a metaphor out of them it would imply that the Reapers don't want any species innovating. So that means they don't want to harvest any technology.

Thus your theory, as you've chosen to defend it, is self-defeating. If the Reapers wanted us to develop new tech they wouldn't try to control us. Controlling us prevents us from developing new technologies.

Conceded, partially. I admit that drawing societies to the Citadel would be a high priority.

But first of all, you don't know that it didn't also serve as a metaphor, and secondly, it seems like we're interpreting the freedom given with their technology differently. They don't control the way in which our tech develops, they influence it. There's a difference. Controlling us would imply that we had absolutely no control over how our tech developed, and a logical end of that would be that we're incapable of developing a weapon that could cause harm to a Reaper. Considering how Sovereign went kablooie, that theory is debunked.

With influence, however, we're simply given a template and are told to work with it. If you lay down a foundation of bricks and then are told that you can make any sort of building you want as long as you keep using bricks, a creative person could create any variety of things.

Thus the theory: despite the fact that we're using Reaper tech, the Reapers set no limitations as to what we can and can't develop. As the Reapers then collect this technology at the end of every cycle, it can therefore be assumed that they are observing what sentient life is capable of developing on their own.

Modifié par AlphaDormante, 08 août 2011 - 09:26 .

[AlphaDormante]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'm taking the most straight-forward interpretation of Sovereign's statement. If you want me to believe there was more to it than there first appeared to me you will need to present some kind of evidence.

What evidence is there that Sovereign was making a metaphor and not just speaking literally?

Fair enough. None.

If he was speaking in metaphors, then how does this support your argument instead of contradicting it?

Control and influence are basically the same thing. One is just more overt. We never invented anything special to destroy Sovereign. It was taken down by a lot of fire power pouring into it over a long period of time.

I didn't say we needed anything special. The point is that we have guns capable of harming a Reaper. If Reapers are able to precise control what we can and can't develop with their tech, that wouldn't have happened. That means one of two things:

A) The Reapers allowed "wiggle room" for us to become inventive with their tech. This puts them at greater risk, but there is a greater prize. [insert Jacob joke here.]
The weapons used to harm Sovereign were, in fact, a completely original design by the galactic species.

Either way, it would make little sense for the Reapers not to investigate the technology. A. because it was their original intent, and B. because it poses a large danger for future invasions if left unchecked.

If the Reapers care at all it is them not wanting us to understand how their technology works. It is that very knowledge which allowed the Protheans to undo their trap and give us a fighting chance.

What use would any technology we develop be to the Reapers? The only kinds of tech that would be useful to them would be the kinds that fundamentally change how our civilization operates. Something like galaxy-spanning FTL that doesn't use mass relays or element zero.

It's been said, by both Sovereign and Vigil: the Reapers' motivations are unclear. But they do encourage us to use the relays, and they do later harvest our technology.

Fact: they want it. It's just that nobody knows why; that's why we're theorizing.

If the Reapers are harvesting technology and incorporating it into themselves then how come Sovereign wasn't prepared to deal with the Prothean beacons? He had to string along a puppet to get the job done which ultimately left him partially out of the loop.

The Protheans on Ilos were the ones that encoded the warnings into the beacons. This took place after the invasion; who's to say that they didn't change the technology so that Sovereign's data on the beacons would be insufficiont, thus rendering him incapable of interfacing with it directly?

And again, remember that the Reapers harvesting the Protheans' technology is canon - whether or not you believe in our theory, the fact of it is that Sovereign was canonly unable to use the beacons.

Consider the Collectors, Reaper agents. Their whole existence was spent monitoring other races and dispersing their own technology among them. That too works against the other races developing anything new since it presents them with an easier past. If the Reapers wanted new, novel technologies to harvest why would they have the Collectors do this?

As far as the rest of the galaxy was concerned, the Collectors barely existed. If they introduced Reaper tech, it certainly wasn't very significant, and had no apparent influence in the development of the galaxy's main technology.

Modifié par AlphaDormante, 08 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlphaDormante wrote...

I agree, resources could be collected anywhere from the planet by anyone. But technology cannot. If an indoctrinated could collect information from a piece of technology as efficiently as a Reaper can, then there would have been no need for Sovereign to interact with the Citadel Tower as it did - Saren could have downloaded all data and uploaded it directly to Sovereign himself. Instead, Sovereign put itself in harm's way so that it could attach to the Tower and interface with it directly. That example is the only one we have of Reapers interacting with our technology, and it makes sense that they could gather all sorts of information directly that no slave ever could.

Erm...Sovereign didn't dock to data mine..he docked to re-program the Citadel and activate the super-relay, as hte Protheans made sure he couldn't do it remotely anymore.

Imagine this - the Reapers divided into separate divisions, a la Squee's plan. However, rather than two divisions, there are three:

• The Reapers that are groundside, attaching to buildings and
  interfacing with them to collect things such as technology and data on
  the planet's resources.
• The Reapers that are groundside, protecting the interfacing Reapers and precision-eliminating the populous.
  The Reapers that are in orbit, protecting the groundside troops and possibly receiving data from the interfacing Reapers.

This is a sensible, efficient plan, is it not? And one that would be entirely ruined by opening up the invasion with bombings.

Two words for you - REMOTE HACKING.
Why on earth would the reapers need a direct connection? Any of hteir indoctrinated can set up a connection for them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlphaDormante wrote...

I didn't say we needed anything special. The point is that we have guns capable of harming a Reaper. If Reapers are able to precise control what we can and can't develop with their tech, that wouldn't have happened. That means one of two things:

A) The Reapers allowed "wiggle room" for us to become inventive with their tech. This puts them at greater risk, but there is a greater prize. [insert Jacob joke here.]
The weapons used to harm Sovereign were, in fact, a completely original design by the galactic species.

Either way, it would make little sense for the Reapers not to investigate the technology. A. because it was their original intent, and B. because it poses a large danger for future invasions if left unchecked.

I'd disagree that it has to mean anything of the two.
Nothing is unkillalbe. Invulnerabiltiy doesn't exist.

That we manged to kill a reaper means nothing really. The weapon used agaisnt Sovereign were common mass accelerators - there's nothing revolutionary about them. The reapers understan their basic functionality, since it's a rather basic application of hte mass effect. It's basicly better coilguns.