What would the Reapers need other, primitive, species to develop technology for them? During each harvest they'd have centuries to do their own research and testing anyway.
They do take technology according to Vigil in this video starting a 5:30. If I had to say why, well, if the Reapers saw some useful piece of tech one of these "primitive" species developed that they hadn't I'm pretty sure they'd take it rather than trash it out of some misplaced sense of pride. Or course they'd probably work to improve it and make it more Reaper-y but they'd still take it.
A bit later in the video, vigil claims that all the reasources and technology were taken by the INDOCTRINATED SLAVES. Interesting tidbit.
Erm...Sovereign didn't dock to data mine..he docked to re-program the Citadel and activate the super-relay, as hte Protheans made sure he couldn't do it remotely anymore.
I wasn't saying he did; miscommunication. Important part: Sovereign itself interfaced with the tower instead of having Saren do it. This implies that it had to do the job itself. And since most building structures throughout the galaxy seem to be similar to that of the Citadel, I'm simply saying that it's possible that this carries on to the interfacing with technology elsewhere.
Two words for you - REMOTE HACKING. Why on earth would the reapers need a direct connection? Any of hteir indoctrinated can set up a connection for them.
Again, back to the Citadel attack: why didn't Saren set up a remote connection on the tower, then? Sovereign had to come down and do the dirty work itself. I'm not saying that remote hacking isn't possible, but this sounds more like an issue with regular lore. Unless I'm missing some vital piece (which is possible).
edit: I'll address your other posts later today; it's nearing five in the morning over here!
What would the Reapers need other, primitive, species to develop technology for them? During each harvest they'd have centuries to do their own research and testing anyway.
They do take technology according to Vigil in this video starting a 5:30. If I had to say why, well, if the Reapers saw some useful piece of tech one of these "primitive" species developed that they hadn't I'm pretty sure they'd take it rather than trash it out of some misplaced sense of pride. Or course they'd probably work to improve it and make it more Reaper-y but they'd still take it.
A bit later in the video, vigil claims that all the reasources and technology were taken by the INDOCTRINATED SLAVES. Interesting tidbit.
Um, not debating Vigil said that, he clearly did, just wondering what that signifies for you. I'm a bit unclear on why you capitalized "indoctrinated slaves", unless it pertains to your other argument and not actually directed towards me.
Erm...Sovereign didn't dock to data mine..he docked to re-program the Citadel and activate the super-relay, as hte Protheans made sure he couldn't do it remotely anymore.
I wasn't saying he did; miscommunication. Important part: Sovereign itself interfaced with the tower instead of having Saren do it. This implies that it had to do the job itself. And since most building structures throughout the galaxy seem to be similar to that of the Citadel, I'm simply saying that it's possible that this carries on to the interfacing with technology elsewhere.
Two words for you - REMOTE HACKING. Why on earth would the reapers need a direct connection? Any of hteir indoctrinated can set up a connection for them.
Again, back to the Citadel attack: why didn't Saren set up a remote connection on the tower, then? Sovereign had to come down and do the dirty work itself. I'm not saying that remote hacking isn't possible, but this sounds more like an issue with regular lore. Unless I'm missing some vital piece (which is possible).
edit: I'll address your other posts later today; it's nearing five in the morning over here!
What part of "Protheans rigged the Citadel" escaped you? The Citadel is a speacial case.
If EDI can datamine without being phisicly connected, then so can a reaper.
The people that live in that planet would like to disagree.
Sure, you kill a few Reapers. Assuming you killed a large percenatge of them, which I doubt, (since they could get the hell out of there before taking heavy losses), you just lost a planet and made the Reapers work (of exterminating the galaxy) easier. They don't have to worry anymore about that planet. Good job. keep doing that, and soon enough you won't have enough planets avaivable to defend.
And assuming you succeded, and won the war, you just have condemned every race in the galaxy to live as nomads at best.
I't not a win if you're facilitating the Reaper work.
Not true. You would lose planets yes, and it would suck. But you would have a viable way of beating the reapers. The other races distrust you? Hell, they would help you if it was the only way to save anyone. You would not have to destroy that many planets and it could work:
Now keep in mind that we have since decided, that FTL might not work, but you could still accelerate close to the speed of light and get the same effects.
Now, if you can think of a better way of beating the reapers without some sort of magical plot twist, be my guest. I would love to not have to use this plan!
Well I saw the video and I have to say it was very interesting, but still in my opinion it sounds very desesperated, risky and you're basing yourself on a lot of unstable ground.
While It has chances of "succeding", it's not very viable option in my opinion.
To be fair I could say there's more Reapers than 2000. If there's a lot more Reapers, that tactic can't work so well. But let's assume you're right and they have 2000 Reapers.
First, I doubt someone would volunteer to launch itself in a FTL suicide trip. Some desesperate people maybe, but not big numbers or entire fleets of ships. So you're proposing something along the lines of 11-S.
Convincing people to launch itself in a suicidal mission against a target. Also I don't think the people of the other races are going to be very happy if you tell them to launch their ships against the Reapers or their planets.
Second thing: You say you doubt Reapers can stop a FTL impact. Well, I don't know if the actual ME technologically advanced kinetic barriers can resist FTL impacts (probably not), but Reapers in theory have supposedly better shields. That means their kinetic barriers (or shields) could maybe stand a FTL impact if we base ourselves on the definition of them.
Kinetic barriers are designed to support strong and fast impacts, but are not viable against repeated and lasting impacts.
From the wikia: "Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities."
Light travels at a constant speed, so there's no acceleration. Therefore we can't say how much force or what amount of kinetic energy that impact will have (due to relativity). So we could assume that FTL would be enough to kill a Reaper, or the contrary, and in both cases be right.
Le't just assume they have advanced shields that could resist pretty big impacts (by big I mean like Alliance/turian cruisers from ME1-sized ones, for reference, since in comparison to Sovereign they were aproximately less than 1/3 of its size, oh and also sovereign came through a Turian ship, static of course, like nothing) traveling at very fast velocities, even FTL ones.
That means that you'll have to launch pretty big ships (and more than one) to be able to stop/kill the Reapers. Launching a cargo transport might not work. You'll have to repeatedly send ships big enough and not at the same time, in order to first deplete the kinetic barriers, and then kill the Reaper.
If you throw them at the same time it might not work due to the definition of kinetic barriers and how they work.
Conclusion: The amount of ships used to take down a reaper would be pretty big or enough big to not be a very viable option in my opinion. Assuming you destroy 20 ships per reaper, you'll have to destroy 40000 ships to kill all the Reapers with that tactic. Not taking into account other combat looses, I don't think we have 40,000 cruisers. You'll faster run out of ships than Reapers.
Third:Also, let's be serious. Some say that you'll have to do sacrifices to win the war. I agree, but: Who in his sane mind would accept launching their ships as if they were kamikaze missiles against the Reapers? Be honest?
Do you imagine Shepard making that proposition to the Council or to the Quarians? I don't. That's all I'm gonna say. You can say they will accept it and whatever, but I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Searching for another solution it's recomened before trying the kamikaze approach.
As I said. You need allies to stop the Reapers. I don't know how we are going to stop them in ME3, but sending kamikaze ships don't sounds like a plan to me. It sounds like a desesperated suicidal action.
If the council or the other races don't help you, it's not a very viable solution. Also less ships = less chance to win.
Fourth: The Reapers have advanced technology. Engaging them in frontal attack would be disastrous (as you suggest on the second part of your plan for taking out the remaining Reapers of the planet).
"Each of the "tentacles" extending from its bow was equipped with a powerful "magnetohydrodynamic" weapon which ejects a stream of molten metal at a fraction of the speed of light which could tear through a cruiser in a single sustained burst.
Its gigantic spinal-mounted gun was able to rip through the hulls of even the largest of dreadnought-class ships with ease, effortlessly penetrating their kinetic shields.
Sovereign's defences included powerful shields that could block the projectiles of an entire fleet, along with an incredibly strong hull."
Fifth: Also we know Reapers have powerful Mass effect fields. Don't know what they could do with them in combat, but they could trap ships in them or even push out incoming objects (like FTL travelling ships).
I agree tough that the second part of you plan (luring + destroying Mass Relay) was a very great idea. Minus the kamikaze ships part. You know. Lure the Reapers to a Mass Relay and come with a plan to destroy the Relay and the Reapers at the same time.
Also we don't know if Relays support FTL impacts or if they would explode/implode like with the Meteorite on Arrival. Relays are supposed to send you at FTL speeds through space, so maybe FTL travelling into them just makes you use the Relay.
So a viable (or at least more viable than suiciding yourself) option would be coming with a plan to create a mass effect field big enough to move a meteorite/asteroid /planet to the Relay so that It destroys it (and the Reapers in the system). Also you could prepare the system (evacuate the people etc) so that it's not a suicidal mission.
Oh and since the game it's called Mass Effect, I think it's pretty safe to bet that this could very well be the one of deciding factors against the reapers (the mass effect fields).
There you go, another possible solution that has some chances of succeding and you don't have to suicide your ships in the process.
1) That people would not be willing to kamikaze. Trought history they did it for far less than total annihilation of all life.
2) that reapers can stop FTL impacts. Notice the description say kinetic barriers are used to stop SMALL objects. And the impact energy of such a ship would be enormeous. Sure, Sovereign plowed trough a turian cruisers, but that wasn't even close to FTL speeds.
3) Reapers would be dumb enough to all gather at one place for you and wouldn't recon.
1) That people would not be willing to kamikaze. Trought history they did it for far less than total annihilation of all life.
2) that reapers can stop FTL impacts. Notice the description say kinetic barriers are used to stop SMALL objects. And the impact energy of such a ship would be enormeous. Sure, Sovereign plowed trough a turian cruisers, but that wasn't even close to FTL speeds.
3) Reapers would be dumb enough to all gather at one place for you and wouldn't recon.
4) You can outmanouver them.
1) I doubt they're willing to suicide their cruisers.
2) Yes I already said why I assumed that they can stop them, read again please. Yes small but reapers are supposed to have better shields. And small for a Reaper it's not the same that small for a cruiser. And yes, I know that turian ship was static, I even said it. The point was to compare the size of Sovereign vs the size of a cruiser. So that means that a cargo ship wouldn't probably be enough big to stop a reaper.
3) See the video. They would go to one place if they think it's an imprtant stronghold.
4) Yes you probably can. But reapers aren't dumb, as you said. Combating them or getting close to them is dangerous. And Cruisers are not manueverable. Frigates /light ships like the Normandy are.
Erm...Sovereign didn't dock to data mine..he docked to re-program the Citadel and activate the super-relay, as hte Protheans made sure he couldn't do it remotely anymore.
I wasn't saying he did; miscommunication. Important part: Sovereign itself interfaced with the tower instead of having Saren do it. This implies that it had to do the job itself. And since most building structures throughout the galaxy seem to be similar to that of the Citadel, I'm simply saying that it's possible that this carries on to the interfacing with technology elsewhere.
Two words for you - REMOTE HACKING. Why on earth would the reapers need a direct connection? Any of hteir indoctrinated can set up a connection for them.
Again, back to the Citadel attack: why didn't Saren set up a remote connection on the tower, then? Sovereign had to come down and do the dirty work itself. I'm not saying that remote hacking isn't possible, but this sounds more like an issue with regular lore. Unless I'm missing some vital piece (which is possible).
edit: I'll address your other posts later today; it's nearing five in the morning over here!
Weren't the keepers supposed to be their connection? Remember, they stopped listening to the Reapers.
...tech stagnates if it's only you making it,they run out of imagination.
Neccesity is the mother of invention,the Reapers don't have anything they would need to improve on so they have nowhere to go with their tech.
So if they have no reason to improve they have no reason to harvest primitive technology from their prey.
AlphaDormante wrote...
"By using [mass relay technology], your society develops along the paths we desire."
Two things.
First: that is not a metaphor regarding general technological development. Sovereign is speaking literally. By using the mass relays alien societies are drawn to the Citadel where they are easily trapped. It makes reaping them easier because each species is clustered around the relay network rather than being allowed to spread to more remote regions. Dependence on Reaper-built mass relays and the Citadel also means they are cut-off and helpless once the Reapers come through the Citadel.
Secondly: even if you took Sovereign's words and made a metaphor out of them it would imply that the Reapers don't want any species innovating. So that means they don't want to harvest any technology.
Thus your theory, as you've chosen to defend it, is self-defeating. If the Reapers wanted us to develop new tech they wouldn't try to control us. Controlling us prevents us from developing new technologies.
First, you need to finish that last sentence "Controlling us prevents us from developing new technologies that could possibly be harmful to them." It's not to stop us completely from creating, but to make sure that we stick to their "guidlines", and so that they can maintain a reasonable sense of predictability when they come back to reap.
And, you never addressed the other reason I brought up as to why they would want to "harvest" our tech. If nothing else, it provides them reference points. They will, in essence, have a better understanding as to how organic civilizations develop in general, and to understand us better means that it will be easier to destroy us the next time around.
1) I doubt they're willing to suicide their cruisers.
2) Yes I already said why I assumed that they can stop them, read again please. Yes small but reapers are supposed to have better shields. And small for a Reaper it's not the same that small for a cruiser. And yes, I know that turian ship was static, I even said it. The point was to compare the size of Sovereign vs the size of a cruiser. So that means that a cargo ship wouldn't probably be enough big to stop a reaper.
3) See the video. They would go to one place if they think it's an imprtant stronghold.
4) Yes you probably can. But reapers aren't dumb, as you said. Combating them or getting close to them is dangerous. And Cruisers are not manueverable. Frigates /light ships like the Normandy are.
1) They would. I would. Many people would.
3) Again, that is implying they are stupid. They wouldnt' all gather in one place, and they wouldn't go in without recon.
4) Reapers are faster and manouverable then your ships, their FTL is more efficient and they can stay in it far longer, they can use the mass relays with greater precision and they got better sensors. outmanouvering a foe like that....
4) Reapers are faster and manouverable then your ships, their FTL is more efficient and they can stay in it far longer, they can use the mass relays with greater precision and they got better sensors. outmanouvering a foe like that....
I like how you just contradicted yourself:
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
4) You can outmanouver them.
That was exactly my point, that Reapers are better than us and we won't win in a frontal attack.
You seem to be switching sides constantly as you see fit.
Joining with the enemy is a big mistake, Fighting shows them we won't go quietly into that dark night.
I'd say most important is that if we beat ONE reaper, we can beat more, so logically even if every species get's together and does a Mass Effect One style suicide run on the reapers, we might destroy a few hundred, maybe a few dozen at the least, the point being even if we fail, we have beat them so severely that the next time they try to create a species ( which I don't believe they did), they will die from that groups attempts, and we have thusly saved our descendants, in a way.
Ooh, and one more thing, for all their supposed strength and smarts, Sovereign only made it in with the help of a geth armada, and didn't have the intelligence to leave once the citadel had opened up... the point is that the reapers thing themselves so superior that we could beat them because they will likely just attack us frontally.
Why would anyone join the aliens destroying our world? there's a lots of debate about alien invasions, but there's something that is constant in war regardless of the power of any of the combatants. The longer an armed conflict lasts (invasion of any kind) the most likely it is that the occupying force is going to have to retreat and in the end the side with the largest population is going to win in a Battle of attrition.
The army even has computer models for pretty much any military action that could happen on Earth and the outcome of an invasion of a much more technologically advanced race on earth will result in the same outcome every time....complete and total defeat of any organized military force. Is a matter of how fast they act or how long any resistance can hold out. This is just what Hackett said "Earth is not ready" to battle the reapers. Things however are much more different if two factors change: time and scope.
The longer it takes the reapers to take over Earth, the bigger the chances of them failing at their ultimate goal of extermination will be. If the trailer is right, Earth is still holding on after two weeks time. This gives time to regroup and start finding out ways to strike back at the aliens(reapers). Technology is a tricky thing, because once you understand your enemy you can use the simplest of things as weapons. Reapers are not immortal they can be killed with once their shields are down. Since Earth is giving hell to the reapers after two weeks, that means a major problem for the them, because this gives way to the second factor: the scope of a galaxy as a battlefield.
The reapers as powerful as they are, can't attack all the hotspots in the galaxy at the same time with overwhelming force. That's why they made the citadel in the first place, so they could take out as much of the galaxy's government and military in one shot. This gives them a few decades (proteans) to finish their mission destroying the rest of the isolated pockets of sentient life. Now that they have to take out planets one by one is just a question of how many much of the galaxy they can takeout before being stopped.They are gambling they are win.
They could have just done nothing and wait for Sheppard to die out and the whole Reaper deal to go back to being a myth to srike again, but they choose to take on the entire galaxy head on because Sheppard lure them out. This is their downfall, because it makes them predicable and gives enough of a warning for the rest of the races to prepare.
Now is just a problem of how they are going to take them out. Destroying the Relays is just ridiculous because they are like bridges funneling all the reapers to one place and they are also the only way to move resources and ships. A huge battle will most likely will be lost unless you have weapons that can take out reapers with only a few shots and that is not the case. My guess is they are going to pull a stargate atlantis here and either use a virus/frequency that the proteans never got to use or the race that created the reapers left a secret to either weaken their shields or make them blow up when they use the relays.
Modifié par Thanix_cannon_in_my_pants, 08 août 2011 - 08:53 .
A bit later in the video, vigil claims that all the reasources and technology were taken by the INDOCTRINATED SLAVES. Interesting tidbit.
Yes, he did. Conceded.
But does that matter? This entire idea that the Reapers have to harvest the technology directly is just an expansion of my original point: you can't bomb something you're planning to harvest.
That remains unchanged. Yes, you can send indoctrinated to gather the tech, but how well can they fare on their own? It would be more efficient to send the indoctrinated to gather tech during an invasion, so that all resistance is focused on the Reapers and not them.
What part of "Protheans rigged the Citadel" escaped you? The Citadel is a speacial case.
If EDI can datamine without being phisicly connected, then so can a reaper.
Uh, all the Protheans did was interfere with the keepers' ability to receive the signal from the Reapers. I don't see how that really has to do with anything.
4) Reapers are faster and manouverable then your ships, their FTL is more efficient and they can stay in it far longer, they can use the mass relays with greater precision and they got better sensors. outmanouvering a foe like that....
I like how you just contradicted yourself:
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
4) You can outmanouver them.
That was exactly my point, that Reapers are better than us and we won't win in a frontal attack.
You seem to be switching sides constantly as you see fit.
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