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We Can't Save Earth, We Can't Beat the Reapers


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#1851
Lotion Soronarr

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AlphaDormante wrote...

A bit later in the video, vigil claims that all the reasources and technology were taken by the INDOCTRINATED SLAVES.
Interesting tidbit.


Yes, he did. Conceded.

But does that matter? This entire idea that the Reapers have to harvest the technology directly is just an expansion of my original point: you can't bomb something you're planning to harvest.

That remains unchanged. Yes, you can send indoctrinated to gather the tech, but how well can they fare on their own? It would be more efficient to send the indoctrinated to gather tech during an invasion, so that all resistance is focused on the Reapers and not them.


Well, you need tech sampels, you don't need ALL tech. Of what use would 182750298443 rifles be to reapers?
You should pretty muhc know where the locations with highest and best tech are.. you can bomb the rest.



What part of "Protheans rigged the Citadel" escaped you? The Citadel is a speacial case.

If EDI can datamine without being phisicly connected, then so can a reaper.


Uh, all the Protheans did was interfere with the keepers' ability to receive the signal from the Reapers. I don't see how that really has to do with anything.



If Keeprs can't recive the Sigan anymore, Sovy has to go there in person.

#1852
AlphaDormante

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, you need tech sampels, you don't need ALL tech. Of what use would 182750298443 rifles be to reapers?
You should pretty muhc know where the locations with highest and best tech are.. you can bomb the rest.


The Reapers are said to be very thorough. I don't think this assumption can be made.


If Keeprs can't recive the Sigan anymore, Sovy has to go there in person.


Yeah, and Saren was there, at the Citadel Tower's terminal. He told Shepard, "In a few moments, Sovereign will have control of all the Citadel's systems" - and Sovereign still came down to do it personally rather than by remote connection.

#1853
Lotion Soronarr

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Sovy didn't have control of all the systems. Shep interrupted him with Vigils data file.

#1854
AlphaDormante

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sovy didn't have control of all the systems. Shep interrupted him with Vigils data file.


I don't see the relevance of that to remote connection vs. direct connection, considering Shep didn't input the file until after Sovereign attached to the tower.

It doesn't matter; this particular subject has been rendered moot by light of our other argument.

#1855
Lotion Soronarr

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AlphaDormante wrote...

If Keeprs can't recive the Sigan anymore, Sovy has to go there in person.


Yeah, and Saren was there, at the Citadel Tower's terminal. He told Shepard, "In a few moments, Sovereign will have control of all the Citadel's systems" - and Sovereign still came down to do it personally rather than by remote connection.


Could be that the Citadel simply cannot be remotely hacked.
A closed system?

#1856
Humanoid_Typhoon

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I don't think the reapers ever remotely activated the citadel,they just ordered the keepers to do it.

#1857
Strugz

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A Dreadnaughts main gun is alot weaker than most nukes , the everest class dreadnaught's main gun hits with a impact of 38 kilotons , in the 1960s the Soviets tested a 50 megaton nuke scaled down from 100 megatons , so the biggest nuke REAL LIFE humanity has tested produced 1316 times more energy than a everest class dreadnaughts main gun , 50 megatons would destroy any reaper 10-15 miles from the blast centre in atmosphere.

#1858
AlphaDormante

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

If Keeprs can't recive the Sigan anymore, Sovy has to go there in person.


Yeah, and Saren was there, at the Citadel Tower's terminal. He told Shepard, "In a few moments, Sovereign will have control of all the Citadel's systems" - and Sovereign still came down to do it personally rather than by remote connection.


Could be that the Citadel simply cannot be remotely hacked.
A closed system?


Speculation. Basically, neither of us can argue our points on this matter definitively; there's not enough evidence on either side.

Also, will you continue to argue that the Reapers would discard tech without looking at it all?

#1859
General User

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Strugz wrote...

A Dreadnaughts main gun is alot weaker than most nukes , the everest class dreadnaught's main gun hits with a impact of 38 kilotons , in the 1960s the Soviets tested a 50 megaton nuke scaled down from 100 megatons , so the biggest nuke REAL LIFE humanity has tested produced 1316 times more energy than a everest class dreadnaughts main gun , 50 megatons would destroy any reaper 10-15 miles from the blast centre in atmosphere.



That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.

#1860
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Strugz wrote...

A Dreadnaughts main gun is alot weaker than most nukes , the everest class dreadnaught's main gun hits with a impact of 38 kilotons , in the 1960s the Soviets tested a 50 megaton nuke scaled down from 100 megatons , so the biggest nuke REAL LIFE humanity has tested produced 1316 times more energy than a everest class dreadnaughts main gun , 50 megatons would destroy any reaper 10-15 miles from the blast centre in atmosphere.


This is what I've been saying all along. Nuke them.

One could conceivably put nuclear proximity mines around a mass relay @ 100 MT each just to be safe. Lure the Reaper fleet through -- this I believe can be done since they seem to be prone to arrogance -- then before they get through activate the mines. Okay so it might take out the relay.... but if you stop the Reapers, who cares?

Do this in a Batarian system, or maybe near the vorcha homeworld.

One thing... you know that Reaper "artifact" in Arrival? I wonder how many others are around? And if this is what Harby meant when he said our leaders will beg to be harvested.

I also wonder since they were only 1 hr away from the relay, if the blast took out any of them.
That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 août 2011 - 12:27 .


#1861
Giant ambush beetle

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You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.


I have one, nukes may create impressive amounts of energy and a big blast wave, but you know what? They have very little penetration power. If you take the Tsar bomb with its 50 megatons, it was tested on earths surface and -compared to its power- left only a rather shallow crater. And the earths surface isn't made of hundreds of meters of super reinforced metal with shields and whatnot.  I imagine that the blast wave and the heat of a nuke is great for taking out a lot of medium sized spacecraft, but a several kilometers long super advanced shielded spacecraft? I don't know, I'd rather take a mass accelerator.
Look at modern tanks and how anti-tank missiles work, they don't just blow up like a giant firecracker and create a shockwave to destroy the tank, that wouldn't work, modern anti tank missiles use so called shaped charges - warheads with v-shaped steel cone inside that directs all the power of the explosion to a little piece of steel, the pressure and the heat from the explosion instantly liquefies the steel - a jet of molten metal punches through the armor with unbelievable power and with a velocity of several kilometers a second.
Much more effective than a primitive bomb that has ten times the explosive charge but lacks the precision. Its like punching someone with your fist compared to stabbing someone with a dagger with the same energy.

I imagine combining the power of a nuke with the precision of a shaped charge, it would be like a giant anti tank missile. For a giant armored spacecraft. Sounds good IMO. 
Oh, and by the way, do explosives in space even create a blast wave? I mean, there is no air, zero pressure!

Modifié par The Woldan , 10 août 2011 - 12:52 .


#1862
Humanoid_Typhoon

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The Woldan wrote...

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.


I have one, nukes may create impressive amounts of energy and a big blast wave, but you know what? They have very little penetration power. If you take the Tsar bomb with its 50 megatons, it was tested on earths surface and -compared to its power- left only a rather shallow crater. And the earths surface isn't made of hundreds of meters of super reinforced metal with shields and whatnot.  I imagine that the blast wave and the heat of a nuke is great for taking out a lot of medium sized spacecraft, but a several kilometers long super advanced shielded spacecraft? I don't know, I'd rather take a mass accelerator.
Look at modern tanks and how anti-tank missiles work, they don't just blow up like a giant firecracker and create a shockwave to destroy the tank, that wouldn't work, modern anti tank missiles use so called shaped charges - warheads with v-shaped steel cone inside that directs all the power of the explosion to a little piece of steel, the pressure and the heat from the explosion instantly liquefies the steel - a jet of molten metal punches through the armor with unbelievable power and with a velocity of several kilometers a second.
Much more effective than a primitive bomb that has ten times the explosive charge but lacks the precision. Its like punching someone with your fist compared to stabbing someone with a dagger with the same energy.

I imagine combining the power of a nuke with the precision of a shaped charge, it would be like a giant anti tank missile. For a giant armored spacecraft. Sounds good IMO. 
Oh, and by the way, do explosives in space even create a blast wave? I mean, there is no air, zero pressure!

The main reason for using them isn't hitting them hard,it is hitting them hot

Nuke=sun heat>metal.


Also the Tsar Bomba was airburst,like most nukes.Scorched earth,not cratered earth.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 10 août 2011 - 12:57 .


#1863
Someone With Mass

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General User wrote...

That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.

Here are two reasons.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 10 août 2011 - 01:01 .


#1864
Someone With Mass

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Strugz wrote...

A Dreadnaughts main gun is alot weaker than most nukes , the everest class dreadnaught's main gun hits with a impact of 38 kilotons , in the 1960s the Soviets tested a 50 megaton nuke scaled down from 100 megatons , so the biggest nuke REAL LIFE humanity has tested produced 1316 times more energy than a everest class dreadnaughts main gun , 50 megatons would destroy any reaper 10-15 miles from the blast centre in atmosphere.


38 kilotons refered to the force of the kinetic energy in each slug. Concentrate power like that on one point, and it'll do a lot more damage.

It's more about penetrating power than the energy that's released on impact.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 10 août 2011 - 01:08 .


#1865
Giant ambush beetle

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Also the Tsar Bomba was airburst,like most nukes.Scorched earth,not cratered earth.


Yes, to increase the power, bombs that explode directly on the surface don't work as well as bombs that explode a few hundred meters above the target. A lot of anti tank rockets work that way, they literally squish the tank. The problem is, there is no pressure in space so setting of a bomb next to a target would have very little effect, the main damage would be caused by heat - sure, thats a few thousand celsius of heat, but only for a very very short amount of time. I can imagine that tough shields can withstand this power for a tenth of a second.

In a nutshell, bombs are incredibly inefficient in space, they don't create pressure so there is no shock wave and are also rather ineffective in creating heat to damage the target. I'd rather use a mass accelerator, a collector beam, an heat ray or something else than using a bomb.


It's more about penetrating power than the energy that's released on impact.

+1
Like fist vs. dagger.

Modifié par The Woldan , 10 août 2011 - 01:12 .


#1866
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The Woldan wrote...

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.


I have one, nukes may create impressive amounts of energy and a big blast wave, but you know what? They have very little penetration power. If you take the Tsar bomb with its 50 megatons, it was tested on earths surface and -compared to its power- left only a rather shallow crater. And the earths surface isn't made of hundreds of meters of super reinforced metal with shields and whatnot.  I imagine that the blast wave and the heat of a nuke is great for taking out a lot of medium sized spacecraft, but a several kilometers long super advanced shielded spacecraft? I don't know, I'd rather take a mass accelerator.
Look at modern tanks and how anti-tank missiles work, they don't just blow up like a giant firecracker and create a shockwave to destroy the tank, that wouldn't work, modern anti tank missiles use so called shaped charges - warheads with v-shaped steel cone inside that directs all the power of the explosion to a little piece of steel, the pressure and the heat from the explosion instantly liquefies the steel - a jet of molten metal punches through the armor with unbelievable power and with a velocity of several kilometers a second.
Much more effective than a primitive bomb that has ten times the explosive charge but lacks the precision.
I imagine combining the power of a nuke with the precision of a shaped charge, it would be like a giant anti tank missile. For a giant armored spacecraft. Sounds good IMO. 
Oh, and by the way, do explosives in space even create a blast wave? I mean, there is no air, zero pressure!



I was thinking more along the lines of a couple dozen nukes per Reaper. The thing is, and it can't be said often enough, the Reapers shields are kinetic barriers (at least they have never been mentioned as being anything else/noticeably different), and kinetic barriers are explicitly mentioned as being useless against heat and radiation. I have to think that setting off dozens or even hundreds of nukes mere metres from the hull of a Reaper would kill the thing, even in space.

Now, it's interesting that you bring up shaped charges because personally I'm much more a fan of the various "sci-fi" variations of nukes than I am of straight up nukes themselves.

There's a nuclear version the same basic explosive formed projectile technology that has been around since WWII.  I'm not sure if you're familiar, but it's called the Casaba-Howitzer and the Americans performed fairly extensive experiments with the thing during the Cold War. They eventually seemed to come to the conclusion that, as a weapon, nuclear shaped charges were only good for, well, killing giant armored spacecraft (of which the Russians had none) so the project was discontinued.

There's also the bomb-pumped laser that was part of the discontinued 'Star Wars' initiative. Then Americans eventually gave up on that project not for any flaw in the theory of the weapon, but because they could never get the targeting to work right (also a pesky little treaty banning nuclear weapons in space).

When I like to imagine a Reaper killer, I like to picture a marriage of those two concepts. Just as a shaped charge funnels the force of an explosion to create a stream of molten metal (or, in the case of the Casaba-Howitzer, plasma), my vision of a Reaper killer channels the X-ray radiation of a nuclear explosion into a single laser rod, creating an insanely powerful, one-shot per unit laser beam. A laser beam which, being electromagnetic radiation, proceeds straight through the Reaper's barriers and which, being insanely powerful, proceeds straight on through the Reaper.

Modifié par General User, 10 août 2011 - 02:41 .


#1867
sH0tgUn jUliA

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the fireball lasts more than a couple seconds. Imagine a few of these going off within a km of a Reaper vessel. The heat alone ...

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 août 2011 - 01:43 .


#1868
Humanoid_Typhoon

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The Woldan wrote...

Also the Tsar Bomba was airburst,like most nukes.Scorched earth,not cratered earth.


Yes, to increase the power, bombs that explode directly on the surface don't work as well as bombs that explode a few hundred meters above the target. A lot of anti tank rockets work that way, they literally squish the tank. The problem is, there is no pressure in space so setting of a bomb next to a target would have very little effect, the main damage would be caused by heat - sure, thats a few thousand celsius of heat, but only for a very very short amount of time. I can imagine that tough shields can withstand this power for a tenth of a second.

In a nutshell, bombs are incredibly inefficient in space, they don't create pressure so there is no shock wave and are also rather ineffective in creating heat to damage the target. I'd rather use a mass accelerator, a collector beam, an heat ray or something else than using a bomb.


It's more about penetrating power than the energy that's released on impact.

+1
Like fist vs. dagger.

I beleive you took what he said out of context....also the reason the heat is more plausible is because well....reaper kinetic barriers are as strong as Covenant shields it takes ALOT to overload them,but you can't block out the heat.

#1869
Sgt Stryker

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General User wrote...

Strugz wrote...

A Dreadnaughts main gun is alot weaker than most nukes , the everest class dreadnaught's main gun hits with a impact of 38 kilotons , in the 1960s the Soviets tested a 50 megaton nuke scaled down from 100 megatons , so the biggest nuke REAL LIFE humanity has tested produced 1316 times more energy than a everest class dreadnaughts main gun , 50 megatons would destroy any reaper 10-15 miles from the blast centre in atmosphere.



That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.


The 38 kiloton figure is for a single shot from a single cannon on a dreadnought. How many barrels do you think a dreadnought is equipped with? And what is the rate of fire for those weapons? Furthermore, if nukes are supposedly so much more effective than mass accelerators, then why do so few starships use them in the ME universe?

#1870
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I think there's an anti-nuke treaty.

#1871
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Sgt Stryker wrote...
if nukes are supposedly so much more effective than mass accelerators, then why do so few starships use them in the ME universe?

No one said nukes are more effective,not against regular ships anyway.

But most ships don't have impregnable kinetic barriers like reapers,hence the BoTC it took quite a few salvos to kill sovvy.

And like stated above,bombs aren't very effective in space,but desperate times,desperate measures.


sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think there's an anti-nuke treaty.

also this.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 10 août 2011 - 02:08 .


#1872
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Someone With Mass wrote...

General User wrote...

That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.

Here are two reasons.


I'll confess, I've never really understood the rationale behind GARDIAN batteries being some sort of aegis against missiles. I mean, if the GARDIAN system is soooo impenetrable, how to the projectiles fired from conventional Mass Effect warships survive to make it to impact?

I'm being a bit facetious, but only a bit. Besides, we've seen in some of the news reports that fighter craft got right on top of Sovereign during the Battle of the Citadel. And if fighters can do it, I can see no reason why missiles can't.

As for the occuli, well… they didn't exactly clothe themselves in glory at the Battle of the Collector Base against the SR-2. So if the Reapers are relying on those things they are going to need A LOT of them (the production pipeline for which would give us fixed targets that the Reapers would have pressing interest in standing and defending). And, not to put too fine a point on it, but flying escort to target for a payload is one of the basic mission types fighter pilots have been flying since WWI.

#1873
Humanoid_Typhoon

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General User wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

General User wrote...

That's right! I completely forgot about that scene!

You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why nukes wouldn't work as Reaper killers.

Here are two reasons.


I'll confess, I've never really understood the rationale behind GARDIAN batteries being some sort of aegis against missiles. I mean, if the GARDIAN system is soooo impenetrable, how to the projectiles fired from conventional Mass Effect warships survive to make it to impact?

I'm being a bit facetious, but only a bit. Besides, we've seen in some of the news reports that fighter craft got right on top of Sovereign during the Battle of the Citadel. And if fighters can do it, I can see no reason why missiles can't.

As for the occuli, well… they didn't exactly clothe themselves in glory at the Battle of the Collector Base against the SR-2. So if the Reapers are relying on those things they are going to need A LOT of them (the production pipeline for which would give us fixed targets that the Reapers would have pressing interest in standing and defending). And, not to put too fine a point on it, but flying escort to target for a payload is one of the basic mission types fighter pilots have been flying since WWI.

Do you mean CIWS?

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 10 août 2011 - 02:19 .


#1874
Someone With Mass

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The GARDIAN lasers are just there to shoot down ships/missiles, not mass accelerator slugs.

#1875
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Sgt Stryker wrote...

The 38 kiloton figure is for a single shot from a single cannon on a dreadnought. How many barrels do you think a dreadnought is equipped with? And what is the rate of fire for those weapons?


One.  Unless I'm mistaken, conventional warships in ME have a single, very powerful, spinal mounted gun and several smaller weapon mounts.  The soldier in the scene says his "force of a 38 kiloton bomb"- slug is from "the main gun."  I interperated that as refering to the spinal mounted gun.

EDIT: As for rate of fire, Iooked up the clip on YouTube, it is once every five seconds.


Sgt Stryker wrote...
Furthermore, if nukes are supposedly so much more effective than mass accelerators, then why do so few starships use them in the ME universe?


Humanoid_Typhoon and sH0tgUn jUliA are correct.

Modifié par General User, 10 août 2011 - 02:37 .