2463 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You used hyperbole to portray my argument... which was dishonest since you were asking me then to retract statements I never made and defend arguments I never made.

I used a degree of hyperbole in my first post already, so adding even more really distorts things. Needlessly.

My 'hyperbole' of your argument is the only premise that would make the points of Eingana and birth defects/cancers in children valid for supporting surrender.

You are claiming that I am misrepresenting your possition and that you agree that Eezo will not cause extinction of the human species, correct?

If you are not going to claim that eezo exposure will result in human extinction, then why are you using it to support the position of surrendering to a fate that is only a reasonable option when the other option is certain extinction? Even if our species is enslaved, we have a better chance of regaining our footing as a species than returning to a pre-Reaper state.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

giving up to the reapers is incredibly selfish.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

giving up to the reapers is incredibly selfish.

Well seeing how we no longer become individuals, "self" is non-existent for Reapers.
It's in fact, selfless.

[TuringPoint]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alocormin wrote...
Extinction is natural. Extinction and continuation of the Reaper legacy somehow doesn't seem to me to be natural. It defies nature. That is what Reapers do.

Yes. What is the intrinsic value of nature?

I believe that humanity is a biological thing. Being human is existential as well.  I believe in my own existence and my existence is important to me.  I do not believe I could continue to exist as a reaper, being a biologically evolved being.   Nor would my culture continue to exist, or any manner of legacy that I had created.  It would only be the Reaper legacy, to exploit and exterminate for the rest of time.

Important to you yes. Does it have any intrinsic value?

I will be the first to admit that human survival with interests guaranteed has no intrinsic value either. Just something I want. And I would become irrelevent if we become Reapers, but then again I am irrelevent already in the larger scheme of things, even if I love myself.

I guess what I am trying to say is something similar to sisterofshane actually. It doesn't really matter if humanity gets extinct. Nor does it really matter if we become reapers and the cycle continues. Organics will still be what they are. Flawed beings who are born, whither and die.

So it's a matter of preference, shall we say.

A matter of preference... in that my preference wouldn't matter?  Is that supposed to make sense.  

Ok, well.  You disagree.  I get that.  

Whatever.

The first quote you have is my response to Saphra.

PS:  This post does not signify  any sort of hurt feelings or anger over this.

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alocormin wrote...
A matter of preference... in that my preference wouldn't matter?  Is that supposed to make sense.  

Ok, well.  You disagree.  I get that.  

Whatever.

PS:  This post does not signify  any sort of hurt feelings or anger over this.

No no, I didn't mean it like that.

Your preference matters to you, like mine does to me. But ultimately, I think neither of our preference actually matter on an absolute basis, as in hold any intrinsic value.

But I did not imply that my preferences matter while yours do not. I apologize if I gave that impression.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

giving up to the reapers is incredibly selfish.

Well seeing how we no longer become individuals, "self" is non-existent for Reapers.
It's in fact, selfless.

So...not fighting to the bitter end against "impossible odds" as defeatist *COUGH SAPHRA COUGH* would say to end the cycle for the millions of species ahead and simply willingly adding to that cycle because "it's too hard" isn't selfish?

[TuringPoint]

Phoenix:  How do we continue to exist in becoming something else, if what we are, how we exist, is not spiritual or metaphysical?

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 août 2011 - 09:16 .

[TuringPoint]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


No no, I didn't mean it like that.

Your preference matters to you, like mine does to me. But ultimately, I think neither of our preference actually matter on an absolute basis, as in hold any intrinsic value.

But I did not imply that my preferences matter while yours do not. I apologize if I gave that impression.

Ok...

At what point do you have a preference?  Is your preference based on your preference not mattering?

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

You are claiming that I am misrepresenting your possition and that you agree that Eezo will not cause extinction of the human species, correct?

Why are you asking me this?

Because you claim that I am misrepresenting your position, and I would prefer clarity. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes, though.

My reasons for supporting surrender have a lot more to do with our ability to win the war, not just our ability to save Earth. I arrived at this conclusion long before it even occured to me how badly Earth might fare even after a successful fight to save it. Earth being poisoned is just an extra layer of despair for everyone to ponder.

Then argue the point of our ability to win the war, rather than the non-supporting point of ecological damage from eezo.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alocormin wrote...

How do we continue to exist in becoming something else, if what we are, how we exist, is not spiritual or metaphysical?

How one exists is not relevent to the fact of existence. Humans are not any more existent than animals. Both exist.

Now if your question is, will humanity continue to be humanity if it becomes a reaper? I do not have the answer for that. I think we know too little about the Reapers to know the answer. Sovereign says they are each a nation, independent. Could each have its own name, its own culture, its own beliefs, its own individuality within the Reapers as a whole born from its collective conscience? Who knows.

What I would ask is, is this necessarily such a bad existence? I do not think it is.

[SandTrout]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

giving up to the reapers is incredibly selfish.

Well seeing how we no longer become individuals, "self" is non-existent for Reapers.
It's in fact, selfless.

So...not fighting to the bitter end against "impossible odds" as defeatist *COUGH SAPHRA COUGH* would say to end the cycle for the millions of species ahead and simply willingly adding to that cycle because "it's too hard" isn't selfish?

I think he was shooting for humor, there, Typhoon.

[Felflamer]

Earth won't suffer from the eezo falling to it because if the reaper core is breached like Sovereigns was the thing will blow sky high. Even if that dosen't happen the eezo will more then likely burn up in reentry, and only small amounts will make planetfall.

The way I see it playing out is that when Shepard shows up with reinforcements the reapers will either pull away from earth or take an orbital strike from the fleets above earth after they arrive. But we won't know till march 6 so all we can do is talk about what we thinks gonna happen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alocormin wrote...
At what point do you have a preference?  Is your preference based on your preference not mattering?

My preference is based on it mattering to me, and since I cannot know what objectively matters in absolute, I have no option but to base everything on my own preferences that I control / determine.  

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Because you claim that I am misrepresenting your position, and I would prefer clarity. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes, though.

I'm not answering that question this time because I've answered it so many times in the past and you should already know my position on it.

Humor me, a simple Yes or No would take less effort than the way that you are evading the question.

I have. Most of my first post is about that. I'm not the one who turned this entire thread into an argument about Earth's ecology. That was you and everyone else.

You should read everyone's first post. Most thought that your analysis was interesting, but took issue with the isolated point of your conclusion that eezo contamination would cause irreparable damage to the ecosystem. You brought up the point, and have refused to concede it.

It speaks volumes about the rest of my post though. Almost nobody is
willing to tackle it. Only Arijharn made any attempt and his success
hinges on the assumption that he can meet the Reapers head on and not
just be destroyed.

That is because it is a valid concern which we lack adequate data to adress in any meaningful way.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Humor me,

No.

lol classic.

[TuringPoint]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

How do we continue to exist in becoming something else, if what we are, how we exist, is not spiritual or metaphysical?

How one exists is not relevent to the fact of existence. Humans are not any more existent than animals. Both exist.


Now if your question is, will humanity continue to be humanity if it becomes a reaper? I do not have the answer for that. I think we know too little about the Reapers to know the answer. Sovereign says they are each a nation, independent. Could each have its own name, its own culture, its own beliefs, its own individuality within the Reapers as a whole born from its collective conscience? Who knows.

What I would ask is, is this necessarily such a bad existence? I do not think it is.

Whatever our choice, if we do not defeat and defy the Reapers, we will cease to exist.  

The Reaper will exist.  It will not be human.  It is not a bad existence to be a Reaper, but what I am asking is why you think of it as "becoming" Reapers?  You seem to think we would continue to exist, and I do not think so.  That seems to be our disagreement, and why I am interested in asking you questions about your decision.   I do not have any way to judge absolute right in this instance, and don't see my existence as preference, but as something personal.

I have a feeling a Reaper's sense of what they are is much different from anything we could possibly imagine

If you don't want to justify your 'preference,' that's fine.  Not really what I'm asking for anyway.

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Humor me,

No.

Then you have 2 options. Quote to me, or point out in the thread, where you have clarified where you stand on eezo causing extinction, or you must concede the point.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Humor me,

No.

Then you have 2 options. Quote to me, or point out in the thread, where you have clarified where you stand on eezo causing extinction, or you must concede the point.

Or...she could just call you stupid.

Which will probably happen either way.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Then you have 2 options. Quote to me, or point out in the thread, where you have clarified where you stand on eezo causing extinction, or you must concede the point.

How about you kiss my ass instead?

I'm not digging through this thread just to satisfy you. I don't need to anyway. My stance is perfectly clear in my original post. Go and read it. (again)

Called it.

[Sisterofshane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alocormin wrote...
A matter of preference... in that my preference wouldn't matter?  Is that supposed to make sense.  

Ok, well.  You disagree.  I get that.  

Whatever.

PS:  This post does not signify  any sort of hurt feelings or anger over this.

No no, I didn't mean it like that.

Your preference matters to you, like mine does to me. But ultimately, I think neither of our preference actually matter on an absolute basis, as in hold any intrinsic value.

But I did not imply that my preferences matter while yours do not. I apologize if I gave that impression.

So nice to have someone on the thread that can disagree, but still be nice about it!:happy: